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Economy, Not Debt Rating, Will Send Markets Lower

Sad Trader

By CHIP CUTTER and PALLAVI GOGOI   08/ 7/11 07:18 PM ET   AP

NEW YORK -- U.S. investors will have their first chance Monday to react to Standard & Poor's decision to strip the U.S. government of its top credit rating. But the bigger issues facing Wall Street and stock markets worldwide remain debt-ridden countries in Europe and concerns that the global economy is weakening.

Friday's first-ever downgrade of U.S. long-term debt from AAA to AA+ wasn't unexpected and may have little impact on interest rates. But it's the kind of news that stock markets don't need when investors are already nervous.

Even before the downgrade, the Dow Jones industrial average last week fell nearly 700 points, or 6 percent. Investors were worried because economic signals in the U.S. and overseas were pointing toward trouble:

_On July 29, the government dramatically lowered its estimate of how much the economy grew during the first quarter. It had said the economy grew at an annual rate of 1.3 percent, but revised that number down to 0.4 percent. Second-quarter growth was also weak, a 1.3 percent rate.

_European officials are trying to help Italy – the world's eighth-largest economy – avoid the kind of bailouts that Greece, Portugal and Spain were forced to accept to prevent them from defaulting on their debt. And those bailouts haven't solved all the problems in those countries.

_The first reports on the economy during the third quarter have been mixed. Manufacturing, which helped pull the economy out of the recession, fell to its weakest level since July 2009 – the month after the recession officially ended. The Labor Department said 117,000 jobs were created last month. But that came after 99,000 jobs were created in May and June combined – and 250,000 new jobs are needed each month to reduce unemployment.

As a result, financial analysts interviewed Sunday said they expect markets to be volatile this week – and beyond.

"We are in unchartered territory and, therefore, should all brace for volatility over a number of days if not weeks," said Mohamed El-Erian, CEO and co-chief investment officer of the bond mutual fund company PIMCO.

Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's Analytics, said he expected the downgrade to cause a selloff Monday. "There's a lot of fear and misunderstanding and confusion, and that all could come out in the stock and bond markets. I don't think it takes much to unnerve investors given the current environment. I think anything could drive investors to sell given how fragile sentiment is," he said.

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, who appeared on NBC's "Meet the Press" Sunday, expects the selling to last for some time. "It is very unlikely that (this) isn't going to take a while to bottom out," he said.

The reason: "It depends on Europe, not the United States," Greenspan said. "The United States was actually doing relatively well, sluggish but going forward until Italy ran into trouble." He said that half of U.S. corporations operate in Europe, and that the region "has been a very important driving force in the overall earnings of U.S. corporations."

The Dow fell 513 points on Thursday alone after concerns about Italy's problems were compounded by anxiety ahead of Friday's jobs report from the Labor Department. That report came in better than expected; the economy got 117,000 new jobs in July. But it wasn't enough to calm investors. The Dow has fallen nearly 10 percent in two weeks – a period that included the budget debate that averted a default on U.S. debt.

Greenspan noted that S&P had "hit a nerve" with its downgrade. The ratings agency said it was lowering the U.S. rating not just because of the country's debt load, but because S&P doesn't believe Congress has the ability to resolve the country's debt problems. And it warned that another downgrade could be forthcoming.

On Saturday, David Beers, S&P's global head of sovereign ratings, said his agency was concerned about "the degree of uncertainty about the political policy process" in Washington.

S&P was looking for $4 trillion in budget cuts over 10 years. The deal that Congress passed on Tuesday would bring $2.1 trillion to $2.4 trillion in cuts over that time. S&P said it was also concerned about the ability of Congress to implement those cuts because of the division between Republicans and Democrats.

"Right now, the markets don't believe anybody anywhere and the uncertainty premium is very high. Since the end of World War I, the United States has been an unquestioned AAA credit, until now," said David Kotok, chairman and chief investment officer of Cumberland Advisors.

Prudential Financial market strategist Quincy Krosby said, "The rating is in essence an indictment of Congress and puts the president on the defensive. While both sides came up with a package that was short on the cuts that we needed, ultimately it happened on this president's watch. So, it takes on a very symbolic indictment of his ability to run the United States."

Investors are worried about debt not only because countries and many people are overwhelmed by it. Debt is what financed economic growth for decades. Now countries and people are cutting back on debt – deleveraging is what economists call that process – and that means economic growth in the future will be slower.

Economists had widely expected the U.S. economy to pick up in the second half of the year after its soft patch in the spring. But the stock market, which looks six to nine months ahead, doesn't see an improvement until well into 2012.

Investors may get more insight on Tuesday, when the Federal Reserve holds a regularly scheduled meeting on the economy and interest rates. It's expected the central bank will state that interest rates will need to remain at their current low levels for at least another year.

Even with this bleak outlook, some analysts see a chance for stocks to rise, at least in the short run.

The stock market could recover next week if European leaders make progress in averting another debt crisis in that region, said Ryan Detrick, senior technical strategist at Schaeffer's Investment Research.

Still, even if stocks do rise, there are so many economic and political problems to be resolved that any rally may well be very short-lived.

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NEW YORK -- U.S. investors will have their first chance Monday to react to Standard & Poor's decision to strip the U.S. government of its top credit rating. But the bigger issues facing Wall Street an...
NEW YORK -- U.S. investors will have their first chance Monday to react to Standard & Poor's decision to strip the U.S. government of its top credit rating. But the bigger issues facing Wall Street an...
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09:06 PM on 08/09/2011
Samiiam 26 minutes ago (8:28 PM)
36 Fans
Warren Buffet critizes S & P and then they threaten to lower his companies, Berkshire Hathaway, credit rating since he holds the largest private holding of U.S. Treasury notes. And this not political? They certainly did a grand job on their ratings of worthless mortage based stocks for their Wall Street cronies in their Bently and Ferraries.
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intolleft
ObamaCare...getting you shovel ready
05:05 PM on 08/09/2011
Other reasons? You mean that the market is being propped up with Stim money and interest rates artificially held down?
03:22 PM on 08/09/2011
It's a good time to buy low. Google the words - simple, cash, stock, - and click on the top site.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
garymc8
We got OBL- not gop
11:00 AM on 08/09/2011
The "ratings groups" are controlling the markets in a downward fashion to rid america of the BLACK POTUS. SP did it to avoid payment of their fiscal responsibilities because they are G(R)EED BASED, and will worj hand in hand to make sure ERIC CANTOR PROSPERS FROM THE SHORT SALE WHEN THE US OF A DEFAULTS. CANTOR SHOULD GO TO JAIL IF HE MAKES ONE DIME OF PROFIT FROM THIS JOKE.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
ritamary
02:28 PM on 08/09/2011
The United States government is not going to default. We must vote out these psychotic Tea Party people.
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Bobrobert
Go God... Jesus rocks... the Spirit is very cool..
06:38 AM on 08/09/2011
Did you hear the joke about the "Repukelican" party...???

Yep... they are the joke...

:-)
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Bobrobert
Go God... Jesus rocks... the Spirit is very cool..
06:34 AM on 08/09/2011
There goes another retirement plan...

When will people stop with gambling life savings in the stock market and real estate...

:-)
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05:24 AM on 08/09/2011
Bad ice cream season this year. I can hear the market slipping.
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05:09 AM on 08/09/2011
Ha, Ha just keep working nice people, retirement not for you. Tip always bet on red. All hail King Buffet!
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GrantS
I'm liberal through and through.
04:36 AM on 08/09/2011
It is times like these when the echo chamber of The Entire American Political System™ needs to start looking to other countries which have survived similar situations intact and have gone on to better days with some of the best economies in the world right now.
02:14 AM on 08/09/2011
The S&P analysis seems pretty iffy to me. Okay, Congress didn't make major cuts to long-term debt (Medicare). But even if it did, nothing would prevent it from changing it again in a couple of years. Gee, if Congress had kept the Clinton tax rates, we wouldn't have added on so much debt. But Congress passed tax cuts (also sanctioned 2 wars and passed Medicare Part D). The only thing we can be certain of is that Congress can pass new legislation that can override old legislation. The rest is guesswork.
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randyman99
My micro-bio is empty
03:58 PM on 08/09/2011
Why didn't S&P downgrade the U.S. when it funded two wars and Medicare part D off the books? .Isn't that considered shenanigans, and worthy of a downgrade? Now that Obama has brought these things aboveboard, and the budget looks like a shambles because of it, shouldn't the U.S. be upgraded to AAAA?
01:01 AM on 08/09/2011
someone please explain the term "global economy" that economists and analysts use. Multiple stock markets, various currencies, policies to numerous to contemplate anymore, squabbling, bickering, indecisiveness. We don't live as a unfied, globally harmonious, people. How can we expect to have a smooth working global economy
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loki
Better to die fighting, than live on knees
12:40 AM on 08/09/2011
what, did the ivy greeders figure out they can get more money faster by betting against the economy and then make it fall on its face? Wouldn't be the first time.
06:12 AM on 08/09/2011
SHHH!

That's a secret not supposed to be discussed. That S&P and all those Wall Street Banksters that are gaming the system, are raking in MILLIONS on the loss side by betting on the losses. They created.

Why do we keep worrying about JOBS when the Banksters sold American Industry to the highest overseas bidders and the buyers took american manufacturing and jobs overseas and sent the finished products back for us to buy. While Congress gladly gave them US tax breaks to do so.

And THEN, the DLC gave us a Republican candidate in 2008, Barack Obama.

We're all screwed.

Watch out for Rick Perry. It's Germany, 1930 all over again. Someone said to watch out for Facism in the USA. It would come carrying a Bible and a Coss.
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MCTSilverlakeCA
retired Sr Litigation Insurance Fraud Manager
12:33 AM on 08/09/2011
And where is Congress in all of this? Where are the oh so self-righteous finger-pointing saber-rattling "someone took my toy away" Congress - those overpaid, over-entitled pompous fools- those "we'll do it ONLY if the other side concedes everything we want- or else we'll just keep stalling and damn the torpedo's allegedly mature, responsible leaders we elected to represent US? They're on VACATION--while the USA slides down the worst Market hill in US History- Capitol Hill is off partying like a bunch of school children who were just waiting for the Recess Bell to ring! ---I've been patient. The American people-fustrated yes- but they were patient. The World was patient - but Congress- the World's most important body of lawmakers and industrial controllers let them, and us-down. --They're "on vacation". I can't believe it. I'm ashamed to believe it.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
muck-raker
give me liberty or give me death
04:01 AM on 08/09/2011
MCT many excellent post(s) this early morning....trying to wake up to the fact that my opinion is that the Banksters instilled FEAR, once again and then shorted the market for their benefit only.....here is something to cute not to share. you are FF

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j26_BLp2QIw&NR=1
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ssnt
Asknotwhatyorcountrycando4uaskwhtucando4yorcountry
12:21 AM on 08/09/2011
For those who think there are no black people in the Tea Party:

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=88656

LOVE!
01:19 AM on 08/09/2011
So what, you proved that dummies can come in all shapes, sizes, and colors.
11:18 AM on 08/09/2011
what on earth does that have to do with this article? o_O
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ssnt
Asknotwhatyorcountrycando4uaskwhtucando4yorcountry
11:57 AM on 08/09/2011
You missed the earlier comments.
11:05 PM on 08/08/2011
Wall Street is screwing over the middle class once again, if you are really brave, look at your 401K balance. Actually, I don't think they care, they, like GOP/TP hate our President and don't care what damage is done to the middle class, just don't want him re-elected.
12:28 AM on 08/09/2011
Right on the money.
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MCTSilverlakeCA
retired Sr Litigation Insurance Fraud Manager
12:59 AM on 08/09/2011
You are so right. Every time John McCain was asked a question about the Republican Party's understanding of the Crisis -He started off by blaming it all on the President - it was the President who didn't have a Plan, it was Obama who couldn't get his act together, couldn't lead, etc., and always with that characteristic Republican Smirk that's been plastered on their faces.The GOP caused the whole mess-starting with "Senator" john McCains " failed Presidential candidate tactics where he smirked and accused President Obama of having no proof of American citizenship- which then he let escalate into racial slurs about President Obama's middle name- only stepping in to half-heartedly deny it when he clearly saw the polls going against him; and the GOP's little Tea Partyists with their racial hatred posters on tables set up in front of grocery stores and U.S. Post Offices where President Obama's face was distorted on pictures to look like a chimpanzee or on others like a Nazi - let the GOP deny all that all they want -but it's true. The GOP's anarchist tactics -it's GOP in the White House or else tactics -has caused all of this-but especially-it's anti-President Obama-on racial hatred, it's their anti-people programs and pro-wealthy no new taxes for the wealthy demands, it's their Fear and Scare tactics..and it's their Holding America Hostage tactics -all with that GOP Smirk....that has caused this.