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Teachers Trusted More Than Their Unions, New Survey Shows

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First Posted: 08/17/11 01:04 AM ET Updated: 10/16/11 06:12 AM ET

During a year of turmoil, layoffs and wrangling over the hiring and firing of teachers, American appreciation for teachers reached an all-time high -- while opinions on their unions and the nation's schools hit an all-time low, according to a new survey released Wednesday.

The 43rd annual Phi Delta Kappa/Gallup Poll of the "public's attitude toward the public schools" asked about 1,000 people questions on hot-button education issues such as charter schools, voucher programs and teacher quality.

It found that three of four Americans have "trust and confidence in public school teachers," with an even higher rate of trust among public school parents, college-educated respondents and those younger than 40 years old. Three out of four respondents indicated they believe teachers should have more flexibility over their own lessons. But despite this trust in teachers, 52 percent of respondents said they think their "public school system has a hard time getting good teachers." Sixty-eight percent of respondents answered that they heard more "bad stories about teachers" than good ones in the media.

The report shows that the movement known as education reform, which focuses on teacher effectiveness and has been bolstered by films such as "Waiting for Superman" and the recent book by Steven Brill, "Class Warfare: Inside the War to Fix America's Schools," has struck a chord with the public. Three in four Americans said they believe that teacher quality, more than class size, is the key to bolstering America's public schools. This belief is the underpinning of recently-passed state laws that change the way teachers are hired and fired, connect teacher evaluations to student test scores and institute systems that give bonuses to teachers for high student performance on standardized exams.

"It does seem to me that the public has gotten behind the sorts of reforms that are being pursued within the teaching profession," Tom Toch, co-founder of the think tank Education Sector, said on a conference call with reporters to mark the paper's release.

Respondents' views aligned with U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan's articulated -- though vague -- push to improve teacher quality. The survey found that three quarters of Americans support recruiting high school students who perform well in school to become teachers and getting them to encourage their brightest acquaintances to do the same. Two in three respondents signaled that they thought teacher effectiveness stemmed more from innate talent than from training programs or graduate school credentials.

Most respondents said they believe that teachers should be measured by multiple barometers of effectiveness, as opposed to being managed merely in order of seniority. They indicated that principal evaluations should be given the most weight within teacher reviews.

The survey did not ask about Americans' perceptions of the effects of poverty on student achievement, often a topic of debate among reformers and teachers unions. While no one claims that poverty does not have an effect on achievement, critics of the reform movement say that grading teachers by their students' test scores does not take into account varying life circumstances.

Half of respondents signaled they thought unions were hurting public education, but still said they're more likely to side with teachers unions than governors in disputes over collective bargaining like those in Wisconsin.

Forty-seven percent of respondents said they thought unions have hurt "the quality of public school education in the United states." This is the first time since 1976 that the survey has asked the question, which described unions as groups "that bargain over salaries, working conditions, and the like." In the last 37 years, the number has increased by nine percent, although opinion is highly correlated with political party affiliation.

Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers, took issue with the wording of the question. "It asks about general opinions on teacher unions, framed in a way that implies union work is limited to narrow issues of compensation and working conditions," Weingarten wrote in a statement. "The wording doesn't reflect the current work of the AFT and our quality education agenda, which focuses on what students need to succeed and what their teachers need to facilitate success."

Survey administrators said they used the language of the 1976 question without changing it in order to accurately detect changes in opinion. "We found the question we asked over 30 years ago and felt it was valuable enough to compare the results back then," William Bushaw, PDK's executive director, said on the call.

"Unions have lost the battle in the court of public opinion over the need for reform in the teaching profession," Toch said. "At the same time, unions are pervasive and thus have the ability to leverage change on a very large scale if they are brought into the conversation."

Bushaw said that the role of unions is complicated. "Americans think that the teachers' unions are protecting bad teachers," he said. "Union leaders are caught between a rock and a hard place: they need to fight this perception that they're protecting bad teachers but they still need to work to get the ... best working conditions for teachers in America."

The survey also touched on school choice, another hot-button issue this year as Republican governors seek to expand and create voucher systems. The PDK/Gallup poll found that Americans increasingly favor charter schools, but not voucher systems, which received their lowest approval rating in ten years.

"With the ascendancy of Republicans to governorships of a number of key states, together with some increased sympathy for vouchers on the part of reformers, who would like to call themselves post partisan ... you're seeing a resurgence of interest," Toch said. "But I do not think that they are going to be able to successfully spread voucher initiatives on a very wide basis."

Correction: An earlier version of this article attributed Toch's quotes to the wrong Education Sector member.
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During a year of turmoil, layoffs and wrangling over the hiring and firing of teachers, American appreciation for teachers reached an all-time high -- while opinions on their unions and the nation's s...
During a year of turmoil, layoffs and wrangling over the hiring and firing of teachers, American appreciation for teachers reached an all-time high -- while opinions on their unions and the nation's s...
 
 
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03:25 PM on 08/20/2011
What this tells me is that while people are supportive of their teachers, they're less so of the school system administration (in which the Unions play a part).

Does this mean that people have even less trust in their local school boards, who set the often contrary and erratic policies of the school system?

Given that school boards are seen as a political training ground for people aspiring to hire office, would that be a surprise?
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nypoet22
Psychology Ph.D., Civics Teacher, Songwriter
12:45 PM on 08/19/2011
The wrong questions are being asked about unions. It's frequently mentioned that they protect poor teachers from good administration, something which does occasionally happen. but rarely is it mentioned that they protect good teachers from poor administration, which happens a whole lot more frequently, especially under the invalid standardized testing regime.

in our culture it has become a habit to throw out anything that doesn't work perfectly, but that strategy applied to teacher unions leaves the profession in worse shape. the best of the old master teachers are now retiring (or have already) rather than try to work within a system they know to be harmful. the less powerful unions get, the worse administration gets.

a few of the poorest teachers fired does not begin to make up for the alienation of so many of the best.
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formerroadie
I am a liberal and proud of it!
04:54 PM on 08/18/2011
The goal of the right wing: suck all resources out of schools, break them to the point of failure, and then blame the schools for something they didn't do. Unfortunately, it's working.
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
02:50 PM on 08/18/2011
What the American public wants if a world-class education for free! I don't mean just no money, I mean no effort on anyone's part but the teacher. It can't happen.
What education could be, with both parents and students doing their parts, is an enriching preparation for life that teaches both academic and character skills to be functioning, productive, and happy citizens. Those outcomes, however, require patches of sheer slogging effort, just as Michael Jordan's basketball skills require basket shooting and dribbling drills.

In education, the big drill-and-kill needs are phonetic decoding and math facts. Fortunately, these can be learned in first and second grade when students, surprise!, tend to enjoy the triumph involved. Unfortunately, they are not usually taught that way.
07:56 AM on 08/19/2011
Some parents do exactly what you describe... and find that their kids can get a world-class education from American public schools.

Other parents abdicate all responsibility... and then complain about how bad the schools are.
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jstrate
12:12 AM on 08/18/2011
I like Ken Meier's research on what works. It's straightforward enough: long term stable leadership; high academic standards; stable curriculum; hard work; parental involvement. There's not much here about public versus charter schools, nor about class sizes, nor about unions, nor about teacher performance evaluations. To be sure, excellent teachers are a necessary condition for better schools, but such teachers need to be able to work in an environment where there's a chance for them to succeed. There's no magic bullet.
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francisco cortes
11:00 PM on 08/17/2011
I have a few questions i hope someone could answer them?
1) Equity Project charter schools pay their teachers 125,000 dollars per year and they can be fired any time but only 31% of the students at this school pass the new york standardiz­ed tests, why if this school is supposed to get the best teachers money can buy?
2) Why KIPP and SUCCESS charter schools suspend almost half it's students?, if they hire the good teachers and fire the bad ones suspension­s are not supposed to happen in charter schools, period!
Link: http://www­.examiner.­com/charte­r-schools-­in-washing­ton-dc/kip­p-admits-t­o-high-stu­dent-attri­tion-rates
http://art­icles.balt­imoresun.c­om/2011-03­-31/news/b­s-md-kipp-­study-2011­0331_1_kip­p-schools-­kipp-ujima­-village-a­cademy-wes­tern-michi­gan-report
3) If good teachers are supposed to being capable of teaching any kind of students and charters schools are center of educationa­l innovation , why they reject special education students?
Link http://www­.nytimes.c­om/2011/07­/11/nyregi­on/charter­-school-se­nds-messag­e-thrive-o­r-transfer­.html?page­wanted=all
4) If politician­s complain that bad teachers hurt students, why they do not complain when special education students are rejected by charter schools?
Link: http://www­.splcenter­.org/get-i­nformed/ne­ws/splc-co­mplaint-ch­ildren-wit­h-disabili­ties-face-­discrimina­tion-in-ne­w-orleans-­schoo
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francisco cortes
10:58 PM on 08/17/2011
I have a few questions i hope someone could answer them?
1) Equity Project charter schools pay their teachers 125,000 dollars per year and they can be fired any time but only 31% of the students at this school pass the new york standardized tests, why if this school is supposed to get the best teachers money can buy?
2) Why KIPP and SUCCESS charter schools suspend almost half it's studentsif they hire the good teachers and fire the bad ones suspensions are not supposed to happen in charter schools?
Link: http://www.examiner.com/charter-schools-in-washington-dc/kipp-admits-to-high-student-attrition-rates
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-03-31/news/bs-md-kipp-study-20110331_1_kipp-schools-kipp-ujima-village-academy-western-michigan-report
3) If good teachers are supposed to being capable of teaching any kind of students and charters schools are center of educational innovation , why they reject special education students?
Link http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/nyregion/charter-school-sends-message-thrive-or-transfer.html?pagewanted=all
4) If politicians complain that bad teachers hurt students, why they complain when special education students are rejected by charter schools?
Link: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/splc-complaint-children-with-disabilities-face-discrimination-in-new-orleans-schoo
09:03 PM on 08/17/2011
pay quality teachers a reasonable salary and the job market will become more competitive and they talent of teachers will increase. If it doesn't, they will be fired or leave. I do not believe in protecting teachers just because they belong to a union.
07:15 PM on 08/17/2011
Good teachers are the key to good education. Recruiting from the bottom half of the class is a mistake. In Finland, they go to the top third of a college class.
Inability to fire incompetent teachers is a scandalous situation. When a teacher cannot control his/her class and the excuse is that they only have three years to retirement, that is absolutely intolerable and inexcusable. - The teachers union has to lead the reform to better teachers. Longevity and salary improvement have to take a backseat to quality education: Kids need to come first.
07:58 AM on 08/19/2011
We can fire bad teachers now. That's a red herring. Most of the "reform" on that front is only making it easier to fire good teachers (but, coincidentally I'm sure, more expensive ones... though they wouldn't be "expensive" if we were talking about any profession except teaching).
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Texas Aggie
06:56 PM on 08/17/2011
Continued from below.

A good example of this is a woman I knew who had a BS in chemistry from the 60's and wanted to start teaching in the 80's. She had a PhD in education, but no further work in chemistry and had only taught at a parochial school for two years. When she wanted to restart her career, she fully expected to be preferred over other teachers because of her education degree regardless of the fact that more recent graduates knew more chemistry than she did. Her attitude was "To teach chemistry, all you need is two semesters of general chemistry and all the rest didactic courses." This attitude is partly what is wrong with education today.

P.S. She didn't get a job teaching chemistry.
07:59 AM on 08/19/2011
Well, then that attitude might have been what was wrong with HER, not what was wrong with EDUCATION.
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Texas Aggie
06:56 PM on 08/17/2011
"It does seem to me that the public has gotten behind the sorts of reforms that are being pursued within the teaching profession,"

I would guess that this reflects the public relations by the MSM rather than any particular merit of the reforms. Anything based on the idea that schools should be run like businesses misses the whole point of schooling and will result in failure of the program if the point is to produce educated kids. If there is another purpose for the program, such as produce mindless automatons, then it might not be a failure depending on how you define your goals.

I have to agree with some of the observations on teachers in general, though. Think about the kids in your high school who went into public education. How many of them were among the top students? Very few, I would bet.

And then teacher education has been traditionally more about teaching technique than subject matter. My best teachers all had mastered the material and none of the poor ones had. I would suggest that learning the material is a lot more important than knowing how to make a good bulletin board. And imitating some of your best teachers is a lot more effective in making a good teacher than didactic classes are.
06:39 PM on 08/17/2011
It's always interesting to me that unions get blamed for teacher quality when the reality is that administrators are responsible for the evaluations of teachers. In my district you do not receive tenure for 4 years. You are evaluated formally twice a year by an administrator although your classroom is open to informal evaluation daily. Before receiving tenure, you can be non-reelected because of poor evaluations and that is the end of your teaching career in that district (and probably others).

That gives administrators 4 years to get rid of a bad teacher without any say from the union. The union makes sure timelines for evaluation were met so that teacher's rights are not violated but that is all the protection a teacher receives. The problem with teacher quality stems from the failure of administrators to do their jobs but this discussion never seems to take place.
djo2013
We're all doing the best we can.
07:25 PM on 08/17/2011
I appreciate your awareness of the actual practices of teachers' unions, as opposed to the image put forth by those who want to disband unions. Good grief, the unions are comprised of teachers elected from each school. Unions are teachers, teachers are unions, and to try and separate the two entities isn't dealing with reality.
10:25 AM on 08/18/2011
not only that, but i read that in cps the union recently negotiated with the district and was able to win 2 things, one was a pay raise, but the other was smaller class sizes. its kind of mind-boggling that a teacher's union has to be the one who forces districts to accept smaller class sizes. Who is really looking out for the kids there?
10:29 AM on 08/18/2011
well, i make this point all the time. :-) but people tend to see it as an excuse for teachers. as far as im concerned, if there truly is a bad teacher then it means an admin or principal is not doing their job. there is already process to remove bad teachers and it doesnt happen by itself. but i guess the logic goes, if you get rid of unions and are allowed to turn teachers into low-paid temps, the fact that they are bad will be less critical because we're saving so much money... which of course is probably the real goal.. :-P
06:25 PM on 08/17/2011
As a retired teacher,I know this will make me heretical, but what about a national curriculum? The same for every student, every where in this country. The same standards being tested reliably because every student is learning the same thing (Caveat: Not necessarily the same way). And how about removing property taxes as the source of educational funds and making it national, so that all students recieve the same, or as adjusted for special needs. Andtrue vocational/technical training that leads to a career. Just thinking, you know?
djo2013
We're all doing the best we can.
07:34 PM on 08/17/2011
I'm a nearly retired teacher, and I don't have a problem with a national curriculum, but imagine the chaos in designing one. It'd be a political firestorm. I've seen the results of special groups working to improve ed, and I the results remind me of the saying: "a camel is horse designed by a committee."
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
02:54 PM on 08/18/2011
See the Core Knowledge Foundations Core Curriculum. I love it, and used it when I home schooled my kids. Both started college early, and have been academically successful--no small feat for kids with Autism Spectrum Disorder!
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bobbrowntown
01:39 AM on 08/20/2011
I live in Texas, I know I'm a liberal, but how many states want Texas influencing their states' curriculum? Our elected state board of education supports Creationism, rewriting history, downgrading science like global warming, and humans riding dinosaurs on their hunting trips. Do you all really want that? Really?
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
02:53 PM on 08/18/2011
The Core Knowledge Foundation has developed a curriculum that would fill the bill nicely while leaving plenty of time for local specialization. Yes, we could do it. Yes, we should do it. Will we?
04:56 PM on 08/17/2011
Recent changes in our school districts tenure rules have made it easier to get rid of bad teachers and teachers who are only there for a paycheck. Most teachers are there for the children. Charter schools around here do not achieve the same levels as our public schools. Many of the lower grades at charter schools are simply `daycare`. When charter school students transfer to our school 95% are far behind children who didin`t attend our school.
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Texas Aggie
07:10 PM on 08/17/2011
Your comment on charter schools is something that has bothered me for a very long time. Supposedly charter schools were going to do so much better because they would have less regulation and more motivated teachers and all the rest of it. They were going to be the place where the students from poorly performing schools could go on vouchers.

Instead what has happened is that even though they get to select which children they admit, their results are no better or usually, as you mention, worse than neighboring public schools. And charter schools are not included in the NCLB evaluation program to see if they are "performing" at an acceptable level.

Seems to me that part of any program that transfers students from a poor school to another needs to have data showing that the second school is better than where the kids were, especially if the receiving school is accepting public funds for teaching those kids. That includes private and parochial schools.
David Kahl
Musician-Activist Extreme Moderate
02:38 PM on 08/17/2011
The "issues" of trust and effectiveness are red herrings, to a degree. They are connected, but it boils down to this:

You trust what's effectively proven. Test score outcomes serve little, if any, tangible measure. Effectiveness is best determined in the application of education to life, perhaps 10-20 years down the line, and only as valid as curriculum presented, as well as its context. We know what is taught ("standardized" outcome) and what isn't. Reading, writing, math and science are fine, but not enough. Social studies should be taught, not as is (iconoclastic regurgitation of dates, names, events)' but as context for other subjects, especially the arts and their application. Any one subject doesn't exist in a vacuum; it is interrelated with other disciplines.The ancient Greeks taught on this basis, providing foundation for the Liberal Arts, now demeaned as frivolous in a "career" oriented society. Music, for example, was the conduit for connecting geometry to cosmology. Painting required understanding of geometry, chemistry, biology and anatomy.

Teachers teach because they have a passion -- far beyond the challenges of logistical, economical, interpersonal, social, and political forces -- that is much more than a need for immediate or monetary gratification. This is what keeps them going.

Educational reform must begin with curriculum reform based upon historically proven models -- with no corporate, religious, and/or political imperative or agenda attached. In order to develop a society of critical thinkers -- responsible citizens and problem solvers -- a fully holistic approach must be taken.