After Bloodshed, Some In NYC Question West Indian Day Parade

By KAREN MATTHEWS   09/ 6/11 08:35 PM ET   AP

NEW YORK -- Some city residents wondered Tuesday if it's time to pull the plug on the gaudy West Indian Day parade, scarred by violence repeatedly in the last few years, after two people were killed in a wild police shootout just blocks from its route.

"I was saying to myself a while ago they probably should shut it down," said Winston Thomas, a 66-year-old who moved from Jamaica to Brooklyn, site of the annual Caribbean-themed Labor Day parade, 40 years ago. "If you create this kind of atmosphere where you're killing people all the time, it don't make sense. ... I stay away from it."

Mayor Michael Bloomberg blamed illegal handguns for a post-parade exchange Monday night between police and a gunman. The shooting left the gunman's target and a bystander dead and the gunman gravely wounded, police said Tuesday. Two officers suffered minor injuries.

The bystander, 56-year-old Denise Gay, was shot while sitting on a stoop with her daughter just two doors down from the exchange of gunfire. Police said they were awaiting the results of ballistics tests to determine whether Gay was hit by a stray bullet from the gunman or by one of eight officers who fired a total of 73 bullets at him.

The shooting capped a dramatic spike in gun violence in recent days across the city. There were 52 shootings for a four-day period starting Friday, including three along the parade route Monday afternoon, police said.

The parade was marred by fatal shootings in 2003 and 2005.

Bloomberg said Gay's death was "a senseless murder and another painful reminder, I think, of what happens when elected officials in Washington fail to take the problem of illegal guns seriously."

The Brooklyn block where Gay lived was cordoned off with police tape Tuesday. Neighbors said the area – a gentrifying slice of Crown Heights where hip coffee shops abut discount stores and West Indian bakeries – is generally safe.

"This is a very safe neighborhood," resident Dennis McGreevy said. "This is one incident that happened here, that because it involves an innocent bystander and because it involves the police, has drawn a lot of news coverage."

The gunshots rang out just after 9 p.m. Monday after the hours-long parade. The shooting, though near the parade route, was not directly linked to the festivities, police said Tuesday.

A group of officers who were assigned to the parade converged on a home after seeing the gunman emerge and shoot at a man who was fleeing in the direction of Gay's address on the same block. The gunman turned his pistol on the officers despite orders to drop it, New York Police Department spokesman Paul Browne said.

One volley from the officers downed the man in his doorway, Browne said. When he started to rise and shoot again, they fired a second volley, which left him with chest and hip wounds, police said. He was hospitalized Tuesday in critical condition.

The shooter's target – a neighbor with whom he had been arguing – was hit in the neck and collapsed on the street and died. Witnesses had said he was armed, but no gun was recovered.

Gay was hit in the head and collapsed in her daughter's arms, police said. Witnesses, including the daughter, told police the gunman had shot in her direction.

Violence surrounding the parade is all too familiar.

In 2003, a gang member fired a gun into the air during a fight between rival groups. College student Anthony Bartholomew, 20, was pushing through the crowds to get a better view of the procession when he was struck and killed.

In 2005, during celebrations the night before the parade, a 23-year-old man died after being shot in the head.

This week's bloodshed was the main topic of conversation among neighborhood residents chatting in Tuesday's light rain.

"A lady sitting on her stoop got killed for nothing," Victor Hernandez said. "That could have been anybody. These guys with these guns, like Bloomberg said, they got to do something about these guns, man."

Hernandez, a cook who's on disability, said he enjoyed the parade but questioned why anyone would take a gun to it.

"What are you going to come here for with a gun to a parade? You're looking for trouble," he said. "We're out here to have a good time, not to have violence."

Charlotte Viola, a waitress, added, "It seems every time a crowd of people get together there's some kind of problem. Always."

Monday's parade capped a particularly bloody holiday weekend in New York and included other outbursts of violence. Gunshots brought the festivities to a stop in spots, scattering the panicked crowd. Police said four people were shot and wounded along the Eastern Parkway parade route and a 15-year-old boy was grazed by a bullet nearby.

Parade organizers didn't immediately return a call seeking comment Tuesday on what can be done to lessen the threat of violence at future parades.

Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said that, despite the violence, ending the parade was unnecessary.

"I don't think it'd be wise to close it down, but it's just unfortunate that there seems to be every year some violence attended to it," he said.

Also at the parade Monday, a City Council member and an aide to Public Advocate Bill de Blasio were briefly detained after getting into a confrontation with police.

No charges were filed. A City Hall spokesman said police were conducting a thorough investigation into the incident.

Before the violence Monday, the parade thundered along Eastern Parkway, one of Brooklyn's main thoroughfares, with its usual colorful, musical energy.

The parade celebrates the culture of the Caribbean islands and is one of the city's largest outdoors events. Modeled on traditional Carnival festivities, it features spicy West Indian food and dancers wearing revealing feathered costumes.

Despite the recent spate of gunplay in the city, shootings are down about 3 percent for the year compared with the same period last year, police said.

___

Associated Press writers Tom Hays, Verena Dobnik and Karen Zraick contributed to this report.

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NEW YORK -- Some city residents wondered Tuesday if it's time to pull the plug on the gaudy West Indian Day parade, scarred by violence repeatedly in the last few years, after two people were killed i...
NEW YORK -- Some city residents wondered Tuesday if it's time to pull the plug on the gaudy West Indian Day parade, scarred by violence repeatedly in the last few years, after two people were killed i...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Catsun
Vote Sensibly, Obama 2012
12:08 PM on 09/08/2011
It's time for the people to go to the streets, this time to force city leaders to ban any further West Indian parade. It's time people for people to put the partying aside and instead concentrate on more meaningful issues like the quality of life in NYC.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
nappyman
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil
08:57 AM on 09/09/2011
Quality of life issues like the ability to celebrate in your community?
10:27 PM on 09/07/2011
No doubt it was the COPS that fired the fatal shots
09:25 AM on 09/08/2011
Care to put your money where your mouth is?
03:28 PM on 09/08/2011
Get a clue. It was the cops that got rid of the drug dealers responsible for several shootings/homicides and running my block in Brooklyn. It was the cops that got my bike back from a junkie that stole it from my backyard. It's cops that stop and frisk in numbers that reflect the amount of crime committed by the ethnicity of those apprehended. It was cops that negotiated tensions in our neighborhood between noisy new bars and longtime residents. It's the cops that surrounded the nearby projects, flushed out and arrested a punk that shot a killed an innocent neighbor. The list goes on. We got a problem on my street, the cops arrive in minutes. Yeah, you'll get the small handful that screw things up, but you can't put the blame on all cops. Compared to NYC in the 80's/90's it's a helluva lot safer. If the same parade were held back then, it would be a slaughterhouse.
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Politidelic
Death & Taxes
07:02 PM on 09/07/2011
It's a shame it's turned out like this because the parade is actually pretty cool, I've seen it a number of times. The costumes are amazing and the music and the food. But it only takes a few knuckleheads to ruin it for everybody. Too bad.
04:36 PM on 09/07/2011
Guns Kill People Yet Curettes Don't Kill Fetuses?

The gross hypocrisy of the liberal mentality is no better demonstrated by the seemingly-unrelated issues of gun control and abortion, both of which are strongly supported by libs even though the issues are antithetical: Control of guns is endorsed in the interests of preserving human life, abortion by definition destroys human life and is considered a virtual liberal sacrament.

Liberals can be awfully confusing.

Following yet another bloody weekend in New York City, the pro-abortion, imperial Mayor Michael Bloomberg trotted out the tired, old liberal mantra, regarding guns not abortions.

In reaction to 52 shootings in the city between Friday and Labor Day, including a shoot-out at the festive West Indian parade on Monday in Crown Heights that left 3 people dead, Bloomberg again resorted to the tried and true shibolleth that people don’t kill people, guns kill people.

He didn’t phrase his explanation of the mayhem in quite those terms since it’s been logically and statistically shown that guns aren’t the cause of gun violence and that people are the cause. It’s also been proven in Florida and other states that guns–in the hands of law-abiding people–actually deter criminals. Instead, the mayor invoked the more popular if less catchy line of the anti-gun lobby by blaming the shootings on illegal guns.

Memo to Bloomberg: Legal or illegal, firearms don’t usually discharge themselves.

None . . .
(Read more at http://www.genelalor.com/blog1/?p=5372
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Politidelic
Death & Taxes
07:00 PM on 09/07/2011
different topics entirely. try to wrap your head around that concept and it's pathetic to blame it all on "liberals." get real!
01:07 AM on 09/08/2011
Bloomberg is a Republican, btw.
04:17 PM on 09/07/2011
I'm a Jamaican and I will never go to that parade.
03:31 PM on 09/08/2011
I feel for you. I've spent quite some time in JA, working and visiting friends, and the parade is not a good reflection of the soul of the W. Indies.
02:47 PM on 09/07/2011
as a New York State police surgeon,, I am personally shocked and horrified at the city continues to issue a permit for parade, which induces so much violence, that in any other State in the Union, the National Guard would be called out. In addition to at least 48 civilian shootings there were two police officers was shot during this parade. And Kelly doesn't see this as a problem? Really? ,This is not a parade, this is anarchy...
04:08 PM on 09/07/2011
Those people weren't shot AT the parade per say. They were shot on the blocks AROUND the parade. But give it a few years and someone will be shot at that parade.

I know cops who have worked that detail and they HATE it. Too many people and too many people blatantly breaking the law which the cops are told to turn the other way. Public drinking and pot smoking is normal and acceptable (from what I have been told, I've never been and have zero desire to attend).

There is a separate set of laws in NYC - one for whites, one for everyone else. And you see those laws in effect during the summer and at most ethnic parades (such as St. Patrick's where cops will sniff you looking for alcohol but at the Puerto Rican Day Parade they're smoking weed in your face - I've been to that one, NEVER EVER EVER AGAIN!).
05:12 PM on 09/07/2011
Do you really believe this is Ray Kelly's call? Every NYC mayor caters to all constituencies on some level. The poster below who believes that whites are treated more harshly is not looking at the whole picture. Whites have their privileges, too and the politicians placate these voters to stay in office. That said, I'd start playing hardball and I'd deny a permit just to set a tone and make community leaders get involved with regard to the bad apples that spoil the bunch. This year, the Dominican leaders turned out to get a message of better behavior and it seemed to work. Of course, that Sunday, the weather was awful so we'll see what happens next year. BTW, someone did get shot at this parade within the last 3 or 4 years.
Dragoon
Got Liberty? Legalize Freedom!
02:09 PM on 09/07/2011
Rather than Bloomberg's rhetoric, I favor a more holistic path to citizenship for the undocumented guns here in the United States.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
SonyaInTx
Money doesn't buy class.....
01:44 PM on 09/07/2011
Real west indians don't act like that.....
01:25 PM on 09/07/2011
...as opposed to public picnics 1930s style...?

well, ..since we're being absurd... I blame Bloomberg's appearance on provoking the crowd.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
chessienut
01:15 PM on 09/07/2011
The guns are solely responsible, not the people pulling the trigger. Personal responsibility stops in our major cities. The individuals clamoring for prohibition of firearms are the only ones that will be safe with their armed guards if they have their way.
01:43 PM on 09/07/2011
If guns are outlawed.......only outlaws will have guns.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Vondrazy Priest
01:02 PM on 09/07/2011
Stop the parade because of two killings? Does this also mean stop the police from carrying guns since they're always killing some body and then saying they thought the person had a gun?
01:18 PM on 09/07/2011
how about five killings? ten? i am just curious what is the correct number before something is done.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
bklynnupe
12:39 PM on 09/07/2011
As this parade was once in Manhattan and then moved to Brooklyn. It should move off Eastern Parkway to someplace like Floyd Bennett Field. The organizers have stripped away most of the traditional theme. Too many music trucks play music that has nothing to do with the traditional carnival celebration. Because of the size of the parade, it is almost impossible to properly manage crowds on Eastern Parkway. It is too easy for knuckleheads to commit violence and escape into the crowd. If you move it into a very large but contained area, the real revelers will continue to come (and enjoy) and the knuckleheads will simply stay on the block.
01:20 PM on 09/07/2011
great point and suggestion
05:20 PM on 09/07/2011
ITA! Great suggestion. This is why I lose patience with politicians and the political bureaucracy. It's like the people who get elected have no new/fresh ideas, no innovation. I say, try it for at least one year or two, if it doesn't work then fine. But try something. I went to this parade once many, many years ago and vowed never again. And that was during a pre-thug era. I wouldn't even dream of going to it now.
12:16 PM on 09/07/2011
It's time to come to our senses and ban ALL parades in NYC. (Excepting Yankees victory parades that is.) These parades cause an incredible amount of traffic and inconvenience anyone living in the area. Enough with the parades. You can still have an identity and pride in your heritage without them. Rent a ballroom and have a party instead.
12:50 PM on 09/07/2011
Parades are more than just celebrating a specific identity.

People of different cultures participate in parades of others. In a sense they bring people of different backgrounds together, especially the parades in Manhattan.
05:26 PM on 09/07/2011
I'm not for a ban on parades solely based on the inconvenience it causes people with cars for a couple of hours. There are too many cars in a city, not meant for driving. But I do believe all groups should be given warnings and suspensions of parades for a year or two should be applied. Let community leaders deal with the behavior in their communities and try to correct it. If ethnic pride is important, then the knucklehead factor will greatly diminish.
09:04 PM on 09/07/2011
Perhaps that's the goal, but it would seem that some of our cultural ambassadors are sending messages they may regret.
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Politidelic
Death & Taxes
07:05 PM on 09/07/2011
grumpy curmudgeon. get a bike!
12:00 PM on 09/07/2011
I take huge offense to the use of the word gaudy used in this article. Carnival happens all over the world and is celebrated in many different cultures and I have never once seen someone use the word gaudy to describe it elsewhere. The author should be a little more selective with their choice of word.
12:47 PM on 09/07/2011
boo hoo.
05:54 PM on 09/07/2011
What's "boo-hoo" supposed to mean? That critical observation is not permitted since it pertains to an article about black people? Find an article about Mardi Gras, or Carnaval in Brazil that used the word 'gaudy' as a descriptive adjective and maybe you might have a legitimate point. 'Gaudy' means brazen and vulgar. A trip to the thesaurus might have better served this writer. 'Flamboyant' is less offensive and still gets the point across, but an even better word would have been 'obtrusive.' It would refer to the violence and rampant crime that has become a part of the parade, which is really the point.
02:44 PM on 09/07/2011
I strongly agree. The author exhibited poor taste and unprofessional bias.
12:00 PM on 09/07/2011
Gay Pride Parade... no violence; St. Patrick's Day Parade... no violence; Israel Parade... no violence; Arab Day Parade... no violence; and the list goes on.
Only the Puerto Rican Parade and the West Indies Parade can be COUNTED on to be dangerous, unruly and require police intervention every year. Just say "no" when they apply for the next permit. Maybe a year or two without a parade will get them to get their act together... and apply peer pressure on their communities.
12:53 PM on 09/07/2011
The parades you mentioned, especially the Gay Pride March, and the St. Patrick's Day Parade are very popular in the city and attract people of all backgrounds. You don't have to be gay to attend the Gay Pride March, and you don't have to be Irish to celebrate the St. Patrick's Day Parade, which is why they're always such successes.

If a parade doesn't attract a diverse crowd then it most likely won't be as successful or turn out as well as other parades. At least that's how I see it. There needs to be a sense of joy, and apparently this one, which I haven't ever been to, has never really been a very joyous parade. This is the first time I've heard of problems, though.
02:45 PM on 09/07/2011
The actual parade is probably the MOST joyous of any of the ones mentioned here, and usually has the BIGGEST turnout. Also, this parade is very diverse and attracts people from many different backgrounds. Please do research or actually attend the parade before speaking/writing about it. Thanks.
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06:03 PM on 09/07/2011
Your statement about the parade lacking in diversity is interesting. Twenty-four countries are represented in this parade so I am curious to know your definition of diversity. There are no signs along the parade route that only West Indian or Caribbean spectators are permitted. You haven't attended the parade so why would you think it has never been a joyous parade? A 'joyless' parade would not have a 44 year history and millions of spectators. Have you ever danced to calypso, soca, reggae and/or Haitian merengue music? That's the definition of joyful!
05:53 PM on 09/07/2011
What?! The St. Patrick's Day Parade, no violence. You are obviously not from NY. The issue is that due to bias, the violence and belligerence that goes on at other parades is not reported or is glossed over.