Guns In Church: Georgia Court Hears Arguments To Overturn Law Against Weapons In Religious Establishments

There's freedom of religion and the right to bear arms, but should guns be allowed in places of worship?

A Georgia gun activist group is trying to overturn a state law that prohibits people from bringing guns into religious establishments, and the 11th US Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta heard their case Thursday.

The group, GeorgiaCarry.org, says a 2010 law, which prohibits guns in places of worship, violates the first amendment. Instead, they're calling to allow individual churches to make the decision for themselves, the International Business Times reports.

“This is more of a First Amendment case than a Second Amendment case," Kelly Kennett, president of GeorgiaCarry.org told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. “It’s about whether or not the government should be making laws dealing with churches."

"Churches should be treated like any other private property owner. Why are you treating people at churches differently than how you'd be treated at a store, at a bank, at a club?," Kennett told the Associated Press.

A judge pointed out that he was unclear as to how the law affected the freedom of religion, the Associated Press reports.

The organization points to numerous church shootings as reason to let individuals carry the weapons for means of self defense. However, lawyers point out that if guns were allowed, people would not be able to focus on "spiritual activities," the Atlanta Journal-Constitution explains.

State such as Arkansas, Mississippi and North Dakota also have laws prohibiting weapons in church, the Associated Press reports.

The court isn't expected to make a decision for a few weeks, but the International Business Times points out that either side could ask for an appeal following the outcome.

Comments

[Jerry Lucky]

11:15 PM on 10/11/2011

This article pretty well sums up the entire discussion. Interesting and informative.

http://clintvanzandt.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/09/2524148-sunday-morning-murder-time-the-why-of-church-shootings

[rikilii]

10:14 AM on 10/12/2011

It's an interesting article, but it doesn't even remotely touch on the issue of allowing those with concealed carry permits to carry in churches, except perhaps when it mentioned Jeanne Assam, the so-called "security guard" at the New Life Church who saved countless lives one day several years ago.

[Jerry Lucky]

11:20 AM on 10/12/2011

I thought it do a good job of explaining WHY people feel the need to carry guns in church.

Our forefathers carried in church because they were worried about Indian attacks, so this is not the first time in history that this has been an issue.

[Rooster Coburn]

02:49 AM on 10/11/2011

This looks promising.

Rifle church of Christ - Members: 85   Phone: [phone] Prefontaine Avenue, Rifle, CO   81650-2518 Worship Times: SUN 10:30am & 6:00pm   Classes: SUN 9:30am & WED 7:30pm

[trekie70]

06:18 PM on 10/09/2011

What gun advocates seem to forget is that we share this country with them. We have rights too. I might be okay with allowing guns in church IF individual congregations had the power to allow or ban them but we know the gun folks won't stop there. They will want a blanket law that forces churches to permit guns, regardless of the feelings of the congregation.

As bad as gun advocates want it to be, guns are not the answer to everything and nothing will change that.

[Rich7553]

07:18 PM on 10/09/2011

That's a pretty big assumption to make. I can't recall any gun groups pushing legislation to push private property owners to allow guns into their buildings against corporate policy. Parking lots are a separate issue since forbidding an employee to store a firearm in their vehicle is equivalent to disarming them during their commute as well. A church is a private entity and I seriously doubt you'd find anyone demanding to be allowed to carry in a church against that church's wishes.

[Rich7553]

07:19 PM on 10/09/2011

Oh, and please feel free to tell me where those rights you speak of are codified. I'd like to read them.

[trekie70]

06:07 PM on 10/09/2011

Here we go again. First of all, guns have ZIPPO to do with freedom of religion, unless you're a member of a gun cult, i.e., GeorgiaCar­ry. This is a bad idea. A church is supposed to be a holy place, free from the stresses of the outside world. All it will take is one death from one gunshot fired in anger over a stupid argument and the idea will blow up in gun advocates' faces. Better to avoid the issue altogether and leave guns out of church.

[Rich7553]

07:22 PM on 10/09/2011

Tell that to the parishioners of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO. The fault in your logic is that you claim the church is "supposed to be" free of the stresses of the outside world. However, reality is another issue, isn't it? Being in denial of criminal activity that has occurred in and near churches isn't realistic.

[rikilii]

10:54 AM on 10/10/2011

Freedom of religion has to do with the government not interfering in the affairs of privately run religious institutions.  Telling religious institutions that they cannot allow firearms within their facilities is interfering with their affairs.

There is no logical reason that the government should restrict the possession of firearms in a church as opposed to any other private property, and the only reason that seems to be given is that a church is not an "appropriate location" to carry.

Why is carrying in a church any less appropriate than in a mall or amusement park?

[Rooster Coburn]

12:37 AM on 10/09/2011

On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs (From the book, On Combat, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman) One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me: “Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident.” This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another. Some estimates say that two million Americans are victims of violent crimes every year, a tragic, staggering number, perhaps an all-time record rate of violent crime. But there are almost 300 million Americans, which means that the odds of being a victim of violent crime is considerably less than one in a hundred on any given year. Furthermore, since many violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders, the actual number of violent citizens is considerably less than two million. Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep. I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin’s egg. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators. “Then there are the wolves,” the old war veteran said, “and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy.” Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial. “Then there are sheepdogs,” he went on, “and I’m a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.” Or, as a sign in one California law enforcement agency put it, “We intimidate those who intimidate others.” If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen: a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath--a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? Then you are a sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero’s path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

[PepCap]

10:11 PM on 10/08/2011

and can u drag in the road kill too?

[SimonBao]

07:41 PM on 10/08/2011

I'm no fan of the people who'd be drawn to a group like GeorgiaCarry, but they have a legitimate argument.

If Georgia state law permits people to carry their guns into all other establishments, it ought to permit those same folks to carry their guns into places of worship. There's no *constitutional* justification for establishing an exemption for places of worship, a single stand-alone prohibition for places of worship, as the only venue to which weapons cannot be brought.

I suspect that the members of GeorgiaCarry would sh*t themselves, however, if anyone responded to them by saying "yes, sure... we'll do AS YOU SUGGEST and let individual churches to make the decision for themselves about whether or not folks can carry weapons... And in order to treat churches the same as everyone else, we'll also let every other secular establishment in the state make that decision for themselves... including letting townships, boroughs, cities and counties make that decision for themselves."

[thorrsman]

08:17 PM on 10/08/2011

No, townships, boroughs, cities and counties have no right to decide to limit the RIGHT of the individual.

Even if you had a vote on the question and 98% of the people in a particular township wanted to ban firearms, they have NO RIGHT to deny the Second Amendment Rights of the remaining 2%. Their only Right is whether THEY will keep. own or carry.

[SimonBao]

09:17 PM on 10/08/2011

If townships, boroughs, cities and counties have no right to decide to limit the right of the individual, than neither do churches.

That's they way it works.

And that's why GeorgiaCarry is horrified at the logic of their own argument.

[trekie70]

05:54 PM on 10/09/2011

Wrong. Churches are PRIVATE PROPERTY. Your argument would suggest by extension that you have the right to carry your gun into someone's home without their consent, which is not the case.

[thorrsman]

05:24 PM on 10/08/2011

Seperation of Church and State?

S'funny, but among the Asatru, this question is settled among the worshippers. Of course, we seldom make our places of worship within a building, preferring to commune with the Gods under the open sky. However, as free individuals, we view the carrying of weapons as a symbol of that freedom.

The question comes down to: Should we carry those weapons into the area set aside for worship?

Generally--though not always--Asatru groups will decide, Yes, is it right and proper to be armed while at worship. Indeed, for most, it affirms our independence, even when in the presence of the Gods.

Now, why a STATE should get involved in such a question--for ANY religion--is quite beyond me. If the group--by whatever name they call themselves--wishes to allow weapons in their place of worship, it is no one's business save their own. Same if they DON'T want weapons to cross into the place where they worship.

[itolduso]

01:22 PM on 10/10/2011

Let's see how they feel about it when the local Mosque decides to arm it's congregation

[SouPro]

05:52 PM on 10/10/2011

Good for them. I'm sure there are several Islamic communities in Georgia and elsewhere that list concern for safety as one of the primary reasons they do not organize.

[smalldar56]

04:49 PM on 10/08/2011

WOW! What's next????

[George Genung]

02:28 PM on 10/08/2011

Since it appears that the mythical almighty deity is unable to protect innocents at worship, best lock and load.

[enlightened45]

03:09 PM on 10/08/2011

The only thing the mythical almighty deity has been able to protect the worshipers from is the IRS.......

[Bob Wood]

12:39 PM on 10/08/2011

We make all grades of excuses as to why we need to be continually armed. Homo Sapiens is only about 200,000 years old. Since we're the smart animals...we created all sorts of tools ( and lately high tech ). Since we're by nature violent...we created weapons...more and more powerful weapons. Of course violent creatures need powerful means of delivering...violence. Now we need to pack heat even in our houses of worship. That's not important in the scheme of things. What is important is that we must change our minds if we even hope to have a long future on this planet. Modern weapons will be our means of suicide. We will bring about the demise of our entire species. It's only taken us 200,000 years to reach the brink. Does anyone really think we have another 200,000 years ? 100,000 ? 5,000 ? Everyone alive today should consider how fortunate we are to be here at all. Our planet is 4.6 billion years old. In it's history there have been about 9 extinctions...two of which were nearly total. Most species that have ever existed are extinct. Yet...here we are. We're damned fortunate to have life at all. So why are we so determined to bring about our own extinction ? That's what our tendency to violence will render. Maybe we should consider changing our minds. If one needs a weapon in a house of worship...one doesn't need a house of worship anyway...(sigh)

[SouPro]

06:10 PM on 10/10/2011

A person licensed by the state of Georgia to carry everywhere else will cause the mass-extinction of mankind by taking a 10 rnd. capacity Glock 26 into a church?

Sounds like Dogma. Except as a trilogy of prequels directed by George Lucas.

[Bob Wood]

07:19 PM on 10/10/2011

It's the mind-set SouPro...we humans justify the need for weapons...and the need for ever bigger weapons. Eventually...we find a reason to use them. With nuclear weapons becoming spread to ever more countries...we will find a reason to use them too. Unless we change our minds about violence and weapons...indeed we will bring about the demise of mankind. It's the logical conclusion to the way we think. I'm suggesting we change our thinking...seems reasonable...(sigh)

[theanti-capitalist]

02:53 AM on 10/08/2011

What would Jesus do?

[rikilii]

12:54 PM on 10/08/2011

I'm not sure, but I doubt he'd toss out cliche's

[enlightened45]

03:10 PM on 10/08/2011

cliche's what?

[theiFyoU]

02:04 PM on 10/08/2011

Pack enough heat to win arguments and converts?

[lifetimestudent]

01:33 AM on 10/08/2011

I have to say that based on the information given in the article, the law probably is unconstitutional. That said, I cannot help but feel immense sorrow at the idea that any one would find it necessary to have a gun in a house of worship.

[PavePusher]

02:32 PM on 10/08/2011

Pay attention to the news. Churches have been, and continue to be, targets of crime.

[Kirby Smith]

03:34 PM on 10/08/2011

Whatever happened to faith in God? What is this world coming to?
I'm all for allowing "law abiding citizens" to protect themselves, however, the house of worship is not the place to be packing heat. At one point every criminal including those who killed using guns were "law abiding citizens" until something happened to change that status.

[thorrsman]

05:25 PM on 10/08/2011

The love of Jesus and a .45 offers more protection than the love of Jesus alone.

[Bobinrkfd]

10:50 PM on 10/07/2011

He who lives by the sword will die by the sword. Violence answered with more violence leads to...more violence. Christians who feel the need to arm themselves to go to church are kind of missing Jesus' point.

[rikilii]

12:55 PM on 10/08/2011

Tell that to Jeanna Assam and the dozens of people whose lives she saved.

[PavePusher]

02:31 PM on 10/08/2011

I don't believe Jesus was ever recorded to advocate being defenseless.

[PepCap]

10:15 PM on 10/08/2011

LMAO, he packed 2 knives, a sling shot and a bow at all times, did u not see the Kodak pic!!

[Grumpy Man]

07:47 PM on 10/07/2011

Dose freedom of religion extend so far as to allow a group of people to worship at an alter where scary looking black rifles have been fashioned into a cross?

Is that really the governments business?

I'm not a Christian but I would support their right to assemble peaceably and worship empty brass ammo casings or high capacity magazines fashioned into a swastika if that's what they want to do. I might find it offensive but I don't recall reading about a right to not be offended. I'm offended every time the door knocking bible folks interrupt my nap but I'm not rude to them.

Guns in church? Each church, in my opinion, is much like a private club or organization. Therein it's their decision to make and not a decision for some pandering politician to force down their throats.

[enlightened45]

03:13 PM on 10/08/2011

I agree with you, and like those private clubs or organizations, they should be paying their fair share of taxes.

[Grumpy Man]

04:16 PM on 10/08/2011

Put your seat belt on...

I agree with you on the churches and taxes unless they comply with the rules and regs applicable to other non-profit organizations. Basically, I oppose special dispensation for groups that happen to include "god" or the "great spaghetti monster" in the picture.

Whoda guessed... you and I agreeing on a gun related thread.