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Top Israeli Rabbi: Segregated Buses Not Jewish Law

Segregated Buses Israel

AMY TEIBEL   12/ 5/11 12:45 PM ET   AP

JERUSALEM — One of Israel's chief rabbis ventured into the divisive question of gender segregation on Monday, saying separate seating for men and women on buses and similar practices adopted by some devout Jews are not required by Jewish law.

Chief Rabbi Shlomo Amar spoke after U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton was quoted by Israeli media as expressing shock over the segregated buses and other practices of radicalized religious activists.

In an interview with the ultra-Orthodox Kol Brama radio station, Amar was critical of these relatively new and controversial practices.

"People who do it do it for their own sakes," he said of the segregated buses. "Certain people want to delineate a fence, perhaps because they saw a need for it. But it's not Jewish law."

Radical activists have segregated buses, cowed advertisers into removing images of women from posters on the streets of cities with large ultra-Orthodox Jewish populations, shunted women onto separate sidewalks and walked out of military events where women have sung. Some women have taken to dressing head-to-toe, in the fashion of Islamist fundamentalists, a practice that Amar also said was elective.

These ultra-devout are on a campaign to keep secular values from breaching the walls of their insular community. But Israel's secular majority is aghast at what they call on assault on the country's human rights.

Amar is the spiritual leader of Jews of Sephardic – or Middle Eastern and North African – descent. Israel has a second chief rabbi who serves the Ashkenazi, or European-descended Jewish population.

With his comments, he became the most senior religious leader to step into an contentious debate over the nature of Israeli society, where ultra-Orthodox extremists have increasingly tried to impose their values on mainstream society. Ultra-Orthodox make up some 9 percent of Israel's 5.9 million-strong Jewish population, which is overwhelmingly secular.

Clinton caused a furor in some circles over remarks she reportedly made in a closed-door session over the weekend expressing concerns over Israel's democracy. According to Israeli media, Clinton was also appalled by the segregation of women by some elements in the ultra-Orthodox community.

Israel's Supreme Court has outlawed gender segregation on buses and sidewalks, but some transit routes and public spaces remain segregated in practice.

Amar said Clinton's knowledge of the situation was incomplete.

"If she were to learn from the right people ... she would know that the people of Israel respect women and turn them into veritable queens and princesses," he said.

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JERUSALEM — One of Israel's chief rabbis ventured into the divisive question of gender segregation on Monday, saying separate seating for men and women on buses and similar practices adopted by ...
JERUSALEM — One of Israel's chief rabbis ventured into the divisive question of gender segregation on Monday, saying separate seating for men and women on buses and similar practices adopted by ...
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This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
12:11 PM on 12/07/2011
finally, a person with brains!
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ttsgw
Atheist and secular humanist
11:43 AM on 12/07/2011
As with all religions, this has only to do with control. Some believe they are superior to other.
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PermanentVacancy
Those who do not move, do not notice their chains.
09:37 AM on 12/07/2011
That isn't as bad as what top Rabbi Ovadia Yosef said in his sermon on Saturday..."Gentiles exist only to serve Jews". "Goyim were born only to serve us, without that , they have no place in the world". So having ladies move to the back of the bus is the least we should be worried about. Here is link to the story.
http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?id=191782
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
04:08 PM on 12/08/2011
israel. Your tax dollars at work.
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
04:00 AM on 12/07/2011
What about the segregated beaches are they condemned too?
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
yoyo1900
08:28 PM on 12/06/2011
All these laws are not God's laws but man made and man enforced.
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Bar Kokhba
I'd have a micro-bio if I knew how to make one
08:11 PM on 12/06/2011
"Ultra-Orthodox make up some 9 percent of Israel's 5.9 million-strong Jewish population, which is overwhelmingly secular." The paradox is that it is Israel's vibrant democracy and multicultural tolerance that empowers such a minority. More important, is the fact that these gender issues are relatively rare, typically impact only equally minded females who believe in this same separation, and is not consistent with Israeli law yet receive world wide attention. I personally find the practice in direct violation of Jewish Law but am I to tell them what they may or may not do, providing it is a voluntary practice? Do we tell the Amish they must drive cars or their women must have careers outside the home or that it is alright for a Amish man and woman to be left alone who are not married to eachother, in contradiction to their traditions? Do we insist Muslim women living in America must wear western style clothing, eat pork or drink spirits? Do we tell Sikhs not to wear their turbans? Essentially, Israel is condemned for tolerating the diversity of their population.
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Talab
I tot i taw a putty tat
09:02 AM on 12/13/2011
This incident happened in New York City not Israel (although the same is common in Jerusalem ) and AS SUCH THEY DIDN'T HAVE A RIGHT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHERE SHE SAT .PERIOD
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scythus
OMG the idiots are breeding...
07:52 PM on 12/06/2011
They want to segregate they need to carpool in their own private vehicles...public transit is open to the public ALL of it.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
07:38 PM on 12/06/2011
Queens and princesses, huh?
You mean locked away in towers and sold off to the highest bidder in exchange for some territorial prerogatives?
No thanks, pal.
I'll take being a man's partner and equal to that kind of patriarchal patronizing.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
07:39 PM on 12/06/2011
Oh and my husband IS Jewish. His family in England lost about 80% of a previous generation to the ovens. Neither he nor ANY of his family would stand for this kind of cr@p, EVER.
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Bar Kokhba
I'd have a micro-bio if I knew how to make one
08:20 PM on 12/06/2011
So you want to demand that like minded people who for whatever reason embrace this type of dynamic should be dictated by you to cease and desist and embrace your particular brand of human interaction despite the fact that it is contrary to their beliefs? Remember, this is NOT Israeli law (actually contrary to said law) but rather a small community of insular people who choose to live in this manner. And out of respect and tolerance most secular Israelis don't make much noise about it. Yet you know better than they, you somehow possess the moral high ground that empowers you to condemn them...
06:47 PM on 12/06/2011
Rav Amar said there is no specific halachic preclusion. He further noted an earlier Bet Din ruling by Rab Moshe Feinstein noting the point. But he went on to say that people are also free to be more strict.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
07:32 PM on 12/06/2011
So let them buy and operate their own buses.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Json
Cynical dreamer, sarcastic idealist...
09:30 AM on 12/07/2011
You should read the thread about the the bus in brooklyn that did exactly that. A privately run bus (primarily) for orthodox jews that was segregated by gender. Take a guess whether the HP community condemned such a thing or thought that it was acceptable...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/19/sex-segregated-bus-brooklyn_n_1020064.html
04:35 PM on 12/06/2011
One thing that must be noted is that: Arab women in Israel get more rights then ANY other arab (man or women) of any arab country. That is truly remarkable
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
07:34 PM on 12/06/2011
So?
That's like saying, "we don't beat our wives as much as some other men do."
Forcing people to adhere to religious PREFERENCES, not laws is vile, no matter who does it.
In the US, we have the GOP trying to shove a twisted version of christianity down everyone's throats.
08:28 PM on 12/06/2011
Not at all. Arab women living in Israel have the same rights as a women in anywhere in the world! So thats more like saying "I treat my wife just as good as any other man does"

"Forcing people to adhere to religious PREFERENCE­S, not laws is vile, no matter who does it"

Of course its wrong. Please explain who in Israel is being forced to adhere to any religion? This incident was in an ultra-orthodox community in the US

^^^ This comment was obviously not for you & it was to the posters on here who use this one incident in the US to draw an invalid comparison to the Islamic radicals with ultra-orthodox. It is an off base & offensive comparison
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
12:04 PM on 12/06/2011
Why does he even need to clarify and condemn this? Segregation is a no-brainer.

Its just another example of misogyny in israel. Nothing to see here move along.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/barak-idf-chief-caught-on-tape-joking-about-women-demand-tape-not-be-aired-1.399939
Rosin the Bow
Hail to the Victors Valiant
12:46 PM on 12/06/2011
Because only Israeli men makes jokes about women. Unbelievable double standards.
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
01:55 PM on 12/06/2011
Do they
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
erehwon2
10:18 AM on 12/06/2011
Hmm. One of the chief rabbis of Israel states that gender segregation on buses (already illegal to enforce) is not required by Jewish law and the usual suspects take the opportunity to rail about how Israeli women are abu,sed and oppre.ssed and that Judaism supports this. So people who probably never have been to Israel, don't know many if any Israelis, and are presented with the facts that both secular and religious law bans or does not not support such forced segregation somehow still take the opportunity to spout their uninformed, big.oted drivel.

In other words, another average day on HP.
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
12:05 PM on 12/06/2011
The fact he even has to come out publicly to explain why its wrong is a demonstration how backward some elements of israel society are.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
erehwon2
01:07 PM on 12/06/2011
As I said, SSDD.
02:12 PM on 12/06/2011
There are backward elements in every culture but you don't seem to realize that. Always on the Israel hater bandwagon.
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HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
LiberalLee
Yes I am a witch. Deal with it.
07:35 PM on 12/06/2011
Oh yes, HP is to blame for all the ills of the worlda, yadda, yadda, blah,blah.
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tallen
panem et circenses
09:26 AM on 12/06/2011
>>"Israel's Supreme Court has outlawed gender segregation on buses and sidewalks"

And therein lies the difference between Israel and its neighbors.
08:44 AM on 12/06/2011
In the wonderful British movie, "Kind Hearts and Coronets" the narrator remarks about how in England the fool of the family, the one who is incapable of doing anything productive­, is sent to the clergy. Think the Jews do the same thing?
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Grada3784
God is a Parent, not an abuser.
12:41 PM on 12/06/2011
Love the movie. And yeah, they probably do.
08:43 AM on 12/06/2011
Who elected these guys, (always guys, never women), to make rulings for others? This is just one self-appointed man's opinion. It's not like the Jews have a big man, like the pope, a Capo di Tutti Capi, running things.
12:28 PM on 12/06/2011
Mikein NYC - the Jews actually do have a "big man" running things - he's called G-D
HUFFPOST COMMUNITY MODERATOR
Grada3784
God is a Parent, not an abuser.
12:43 PM on 12/06/2011
All the Abrahamic religions claim that. But He's gotten so old, He isn't even sure of His name any more.
01:07 PM on 12/06/2011
How do you know that its not a woman?
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Anybodyseenthepopos
Like you Really give a rats...
11:40 AM on 12/07/2011
Always guys? You think Golda Meir was a guy? You think Tzipi Livni is a guy? As far as gender equality goes, Israel as a country is way ahead of much of the world. And in that neighborhood called the Middle East it's literally centuries ahead!
11:53 AM on 12/07/2011
Regular law makers are of both genders. The people who take upon themselves to dictate religious law are ALWAYS UNELECTED ILLEGITIMATE GUYS.