New York City Ban On After-School Worship Services Upheld

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court rejected on Monday a plea from a tiny evangelical church in the Bronx to overturn New York City's ban on religious worship services at public schools.

The justices left in place a federal appeals court ruling that upheld the city's policy, which allows prayer and religious instruction but draws a line at worship.

"We're very disappointed," said Pastor Robert Hall of the 48-member Bronx Household of Faith, which has been pressing its case for 17 years. "We think this is a dangerous precedent that allows the state to make a distinction between various types of religious activity."

Hall's congregation has been holding its Sunday service at P.S. 15 since 2002.

The city said it risked blurring church-state separation if it allowed worship services in public schools.

About 60 groups had been allowed to worship in public buildings pending Supreme Court action, but the city said Monday that the practice will end Feb. 12.

Said Jane Gordon, a senior counsel for the city: "We view this as a victory for the city's schoolchildren and their families. The department was quite properly concerned about having any school in this diverse city identified with one particular religious belief or practice."

Hall said his church might have to rent a smaller space and hold two services.

"I'm concerned that other school districts that now permit religious groups to worship will reconsider," said Jordan Lorence of the Alliance Defense Fund, who argued the church's case.

He said that with the defeat in the courts, the issue will move to legislatures where laws permitting worship can be considered.

New York City Councilman Fernando Cabrera said he would introduce legislation on Thursday that would allow worship in schools after school hours.

"This case was never about special treatment," he said. "It was about fairness and I fully intend to continue this fight until we see action."

___

Associated Press Writer Jim Fitzgerald in New York contributed to this report.

Comments

[offtohawaii23]

03:52 PM on 12/06/2011

Talk about much ado about nothing. OMG who cares if they want to use a public school after hours for worship! I call B.S. on this blurring the line between Church and State. PLEASE.

[A Dub]

06:13 PM on 12/06/2011

Let them use their own places of worship and stay out of the public schools.

[James F Barry]

03:18 PM on 12/06/2011

Yea.............

[ian0000]

03:13 PM on 12/06/2011

The churches were paying to rent out the school space so idont see the problem. Plus the article states that a city assemblyman (who isa dem) is just going to propose passing a law allowing the practice anyway. Plus can someone tell me why prayer and religious instruction is allowed and worship is not. That seems a strange distinction to me

[A Dub]

06:15 PM on 12/06/2011

It must stop somewhere and not allowing it is a good place to start. It is a public school and any type of religious worship does not belong there at any hour. Let them use their own buildings.

[DanBeach]

02:17 PM on 12/06/2011

TAX Churches...

[BoudiccaBlanc]

01:47 PM on 12/06/2011

Keep religion (of any kind) out of public schools & public school buildings.

You want to hold church services? rent a storefront!

Don't expect the taxpayers to pay the insurance, lighing, cleaning and fuel (heating/AC) costs for YOUR use of a public school during the week or on the weekend by YOUR church (mosque or synagogue, etc.)

[A Dub]

06:16 PM on 12/06/2011

Absolutely! No type of religion belongs in any public school at any hour.

[MsKia]

11:41 AM on 12/06/2011

Some of the aggression here on this board is really something.

"My tax dollars should not go to worshipping invisible people"

I understand people don't practice religions, which is fine because it's your choice, but why the aggression? And as it was stated, these schools are rented by the different churches and your tax dollars aren't supporting the church.

[DanBeach]

02:17 PM on 12/06/2011

Sky God

[KeepLeft]

11:13 AM on 12/06/2011

you didn't study last night and you want to pray before a test? go ahead. you think your god cares if your team wins the big game? go nuts. but if you want to go to church, then leave school and go to church. you already get your church buildings tax free. go there and leave our school buildings alone.

[Dean Rains]

09:56 AM on 12/06/2011

Tax $ should not fund programs or publicly-owned capital assets to allow any sort of worship - christian or other. This is yet another example of the right trying to create a fully theocratic society based on western fairy tales.

[EStreetShuffler]

09:53 AM on 12/06/2011

"We view this as a victory for the city's schoolchildren and their families."

Yes, I'm sure those struggling, battle-hardened students thought this day would never come...

[diamondlotus]

12:44 AM on 12/06/2011

For once the Supreme Court is right, school is not the place to hold religious services of any kind. If these children wish to worship there are their own homes, churches, parks and other places for that to take place.

[lilpeg]

09:16 AM on 12/06/2011

Religion is a personal choice, keep it in church and at home. Need to pray, go to church!

[EStreetShuffler]

09:48 AM on 12/06/2011

The services were held on Sundays. It had nothing to do with students or class time.

In communities across the country start-up churches or small churches that can't afford the real estate for their own space (or are in the process of raising money to build their own facility) use schools because they're conveniently located and they often have auditoriums or cafeterias that are large enough to house worship services.

As long as they're not holding services in the middle of the school day, I see nothing wrong with any of this. Good use of a building that would otherwise sit vacant every Sunday.

[Nancy Mac]

11:36 AM on 12/06/2011

OK fine pay for the utilities for the day you use it, the rent for the day you use it, the insurance for the day you use it, etc etc. Get the picture.

[A Dub]

06:19 PM on 12/06/2011

Bad use of a public school any day ant time. It does not belong.

[ThomasPaine1776]

12:07 AM on 12/06/2011

These crazy people want to destroy this democracy and turn it into a theocracy. With THEM in control. For ever. No elections. "It is God's will" They would say, just like they said all through the 1000 years of the European Dark Ages.

The Roman Catholic church is the cause of the destruction of the Roman Republic and the deliberte destruction of all reason, science and democracy.

[Ellisha Gray]

06:26 PM on 12/06/2011

The Roman Republic was gone centuries before the Catholic Church came about. In fact, it was gone before Jesus was born.

[blue53]

01:08 PM on 12/07/2011

The great book seems to disagree:

Luke 2:1-7 reads, "And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:) To be taxed WITH MARY HIS ESPOUSED WIFE, BEING GREAT WITH CHILD. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn."

[vanegascountry]

10:48 PM on 12/05/2011

People hold Birthday parties or gatherings of any sort at PUBLIC parks, for free. In this great nation, everyone is allowed to practice according to their faith but I agree with some of the comments that if the request came from a Muslim congregation, there would be no objection arguing: there would be a lawsuit, alleging those people would claim, discrimination, targeting them as "terrorist", etc. Yes, Christianity is under severe attack, specially from our Government. This used to be a great Nation that upheld: IN GOD WE TRUST and was able TO PLEDGE THE LEGIONS with no problem. Now, people who want to see GOD out of this country are given every priority, then, why CHRISTIAN practices are being prohibited? The "After School Programs" are not forced on students but chosen by them or their parents (that's why they are minors). For those who don't believe in God: that is your option and nobody is taking that right from you but for those who might or do:Do you ever wonder why this nation is going down the drain? Severe and irreversable chaos, not only financially but moraly. Disasters never seen before, crimes of the worse kind, lack of everything: money, food, a roof over your head .the list goes on. God's protection and abundance given to the US, which used to be the land of Christianily, the most "Christian" country in the world...is being taken away by him. Try to think,why?

[diamondlotus]

12:50 AM on 12/06/2011

The problem is which God. The Christian God is not the only concept of God, if you allow one religion to be practiced in schools, (which absoltuely should not be), then in fiarness you must all all religions to be taught and practiced in schools. Schools are the place for learning other things, reading, writing, math, science, history,health, etc. Religion is the domain of the family and the churches to address and teach in their homes or the churches outside of school.

[AtroposZ]

08:01 AM on 12/06/2011

This country was founded on the concept of seperation of church and state. The entire reason the founders did that was because they saw the problems that were caused when the government said one particular religion, or denomination of that religion, was "right".
"In God We Trust" and the pledge of allegiance wasnt created by the founders - it was created by congress is the 1950s.
Look at the history of the world - holy warfare was (and still is) one of the biggest points of conflict and cause of so many deaths. You cant reason with a zealot. You cant compromise with them. They have a holy duty to enforce their views - at the point of a sword, more often than not. THIS IS NOT SAYING everyone who believes in a religion is a zealot, please note that distinction. But it creates a slippery slope.
Everyone lately seems to be screaming, get the government out of our life! ; except when it comes to what they believe is "right" :) It's quite ironic and more than a little sad that they often cant see the blatent hypocrisy.
I dont have any problem with any religion worshipping as they please, as long as it doesnt infringe on someone else's right to not see/be involved. Would these same people be ok if a group of Pagans was worshiping in this same space in the time slot just before them?

[Blankety mk Blank]

10:24 PM on 12/05/2011

Only time religion should be talked about in a school is in world history or world religious history classes

[maninal2]

08:25 AM on 12/06/2011

or philosophy

[Dean Rains]

10:11 AM on 12/06/2011

or as kindergarten fairy tale time.

[allisonmoll]

09:52 PM on 12/05/2011

a 'victory for the city's school children'? i guarantee if you asked EVERY school child in this city if they knew if a church met at their school on sundays (or if anything happened in their school on the weekend) they would say no. that is absolutely absurd. she is placing the blame on the poor children as if it was for them and not the people who are against God. most churches here that don't have buildings are here to help the city and the communities, not hurt them. it also bothers me bc if a Jewish community wanted to do something in the schools they would be allowed bc if they weren't the schools would be viewed as anti semitic. the only religion that seems to be bullied is Christianity. very sad.

[garypeter]

10:30 PM on 12/05/2011

What a load of crap! Bringing the 'semite' card into it, as well, is so low, and I am a Catholic, not Jewish. There are distinctions between what is done in public places, city, state and federal places....and religion, any religion. For those not interested in religion, and it is just that, disinterest or a very private matter, not that anyone is 'against' God, we cannot escape it. There is religion being proselytized everywhere we go, from people preaching in malls to hearing it on TV. I find it interesting that a religious institution would pay money to be aired on TV when that money, as Jesus would say, could be given to the poor. There is a reason for the division between church and state, and this is a perfect example. Perhaps if you looked at things though the eyes of the law and this land and not personalize it, as you seemingly have done, you might see why this had to be voted down. Again, too, to play the Jewish card, is so trivial and petty and grotesque. Too bad you are so closed minded as to jump to that conclusion and the other conclusions you have jumped to, here.

[allisonmoll]

10:13 AM on 12/06/2011

its amazing to me that as a Christ follower i am always the one who is considered closed minded. yet i am not the one telling people what they can't do and where they can't meet. Jesus did say to give what you have and take care of the poor, so i agree with you on that point. i didn't say otherwise. most of these churches that use the schools on sunday HELP the school and the community in many ways if they so want. i do hate people on the streets proselytizing in anger and damnation just as much as you do. that's not what Jesus was about. he was about loving and including ALL people. and i did not use the 'card'. i simply stated what my jewish friend said to me yesterday. she said 'you know if you were jewish or muslim this wouldn't happen bc it would be seen as hate or anti-semitic'. but you have beautifully proven my point by feeling fine to talk against my faith but use words like 'grotesque and petty' when i used the word jewish. interesting. i have family that is jewish and several friends that are jewish, i do not see their faith as a card to be played.

[10YearTeacher]

09:47 PM on 12/05/2011

Its not different types of religious activity. It is a difference between learning about a set of beliefs vs. actually practicing those beliefs.

That said, I actually have no problem with schools RENTING out their space when they are not using it to churches. Great source of revenue, and it really does not cross the church-state line. But just donating the space does, because it provides material support to the practice of a religion.

[allisonmoll]

09:59 PM on 12/05/2011

they are rented. its nyc, nothing is free. and it actually helps the schools here that face budget cuts yearly.

[bobbrowntown]

01:04 AM on 12/06/2011

my school district rents many of its facilities to churches on Sundays. My church does not do it, but I am not offended by it. If they were equally willing to allow all religions to meet, or non religions then it is just a good use of a government facility. Only so that they pay the real rate of having the building open including facilities and utilities.