Church-State Legal Issues Surface Around The Country

Comments

[crowepps]

09:36 PM on 12/30/2011

The pastor of the non-denominational Christian church, Mosaic, is being restricted by the government and says, "We definitely question the constitutionality of them telling us how we can worship, what is considered the right way to worship by the government." I'm sure many people who have made comments here would agree with that statement. Would it make a different to find out that the 'out-reach' that Mosaic is doing encompasses holding late-night rock 'n roll dance parties at which they sell booze? And that the govenrment 'interference' includes things like enforcing the fire codes?

http://hosted2.ap.org/txdam/54828a5e8d9d48b7ba8b94ba38a9ef22/Article_2011-12-30-Tennessee%20Club%20Shooting/id-2b411c25767b4861abb3fc009473b92b

[Conuly]

09:49 AM on 12/29/2011

And yet, just try giving out condoms, which are actually *useful* for so many purposes, at school!...!

[arkady967]

03:06 PM on 12/28/2011

On December 14, 1875, James G. Blaine, the former Speaker of the House of Representatives and soon-to-be-announced candidate for President, proposed what became to be known as the Blaine School Amendment. It provided:

No State shall make any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; and no money raised by taxation in any State for the support of public schools, or derived from any public fund therefor, nor any public lands devoted thereto, shall ever be under the control of any religious sect: nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided among religious sects or denominations.

Kind of implies the states were free to do what this ammendment proposed to forbid, doesn't it? The really telling bit would be the congressional debate surrounding this failed ammendment. I think it's existence in the congressional record throws a lot of inconvenient light upon the line most of us were fed regarding the relationship of religion and state in public school.

[WigginsC]

02:23 PM on 12/27/2011

For the reasons we argue about separation of church and state are for the very same reason it is absolutely necessary...so that no one can "establish" religion ANYWHERE in the USA...period! Belief in a deity is a PERSONAL matter, not a public one. We define this very simply; keep your "beliefs" to yourself, respect each other’s right to believe what they want to and obey the law(s).

[arkady967]

03:07 PM on 12/28/2011

Kind of implies the states were free to do what this ammendment below proposed to forbid, doesn't it? The really telling bit would be the congressional debate surrounding this failed ammendment. It throws a lot of inconvenient light upon the line most of us were fed regarding the relationship of religion and state in public school.

[arkady967]

03:07 PM on 12/28/2011

On December 14, 1875, James G. Blaine, the former Speaker of the House of Representa­tives and soon-to-be­-announced candidate for President, proposed what became to be known as the Blaine School Amendment. It provided:

No State shall make any law respecting an establishm­ent of religion, or prohibitin­g the free exercise thereof; and no money raised by taxation in any State for the support of public schools, or derived from any public fund therefor, nor any public lands devoted thereto, shall ever be under the control of any religious sect: nor shall any money so raised or lands so devoted be divided among religious sects or denominati­ons.

[Bob Wood]

02:13 PM on 12/27/2011

Anyone who thinks there shouldn't be a separation between church and state should read the history of Europe in the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries...or look at Iran or Saudi Arabia today...and ask themselves...really ? There has never been...and will never be a successful theocracy to run a country...anywhere. Religion and government are a bad mix. Countries run better by reason than by myth and superstition...(sigh)

[LonaMarie]

03:34 PM on 12/27/2011

You are a brave man Bob Wood. I think your posts are right on the mark. There are so many out there who are thoroughly resistant to allowing any facts to get in their way. I don't think they've read any history books lately. When primitive mankind got hit by a lightning strike it scared them and they statrted trying to explain it away so they wouldn't feel terrified 24/7. That is how religion evolved. I know you know that, and I am aware of that but I think maybe the history of the world has escaped the notice of a whole lot of humans. You keep trying and sighing. I'm trying to have your back.

[Bob Wood]

05:50 PM on 12/27/2011

Thank you LonaMarie. It's nice to know you're there backing up my thoughts. Plainly...most folks would rather not have to think about things. That's what perpetuates so much weirdness going around...(sigh)

[usmelllikepee]

12:33 PM on 12/27/2011

This was a pretty misguided mishap by the Gideons. I don't mind the bible in the hotel drawers but dropping them off at school is a little much. The religious indoctrination of young, impressionable minds is something the parents should be involved in, not the school or church.

[LonaMarie]

04:25 PM on 12/27/2011

A class designed to teach students about all religions, as well as atheism and agnosticism, might be an acceptable reason to have the bible there. Otherwise this seems to fall into the realm of possible violation of the rule of separation of church and state.

[Conuly]

09:45 AM on 12/29/2011

Yes, if such a class existed. However, they'd need more than just The Bible.

[Conuly]

08:05 PM on 12/30/2011

The colleges aren't making money off of it either. If they could keep reusing the old textbooks, they would, they really would. Unfortunately, the publishers don't keep the old ones in print, and then they lose some due to attrition, and there's JUST ENOUGH differences between versions that eventually, everybody has to buy new.

[mrkurtzhedead]

12:32 PM on 12/27/2011

Good. Maybe they will actually read what's in there and throw up their hands in horror and shun the lunacy of both testaments--- instead of letting the clergy cherry pick the good bits for them.

[Sam D man]

09:31 AM on 12/26/2011

The Bible is the Constitution of the kingdom of heaven. Believers here on earth are suppose to practice them in their dayli way of life. The world will scorn us for it but we are just journeying through
that which is temporary to that one place which is everlasting.
Divine bill of law # 4 METHEYTHEM&U2 reads.
YOU CAN'T GO TO HEAVEN RAISING HELL ON EARTH. Now try to amend that !!!!

[Bob Wood]

08:11 PM on 12/26/2011

Myth and superstition. Reason is the far better guide to 21st century living than myth and superstition. No facts at all to support your assertion...(sigh)

[Sam D man]

08:40 PM on 12/26/2011

Hey Bobby is that a Takamine or a Taylor you are holding ? I believe is neither of them.
Is my assertion Fact or Myth ?

[Jaknik]

02:23 PM on 12/28/2011

There's nothing of substance in what you claim and assert. Nothing. Reciting the gossomer inculcations of an indoctrinated youth leads nowhere, except, perhaps, to the yellow brick road of superstition. No "god" or "Oz" behind that curtain, remember?

[Sam D man]

06:13 PM on 12/28/2011

Just keep walking down the path you are choosing to follow. Dust to Dust Ashes to Ashes
thats the unequivocal end of both of our paths. Whats on the other end ? You haven't been there and I've been told by people that have been and were given the opportunity to come back and speack of it.Their testimony is enought substance for me to believe.
Peace out Jak !!!!

[RitaLouise]

05:29 PM on 12/25/2011

I do agree that the Bible contains some valuable concepts to incorporate into our daily lives. But the real issue here is the separation of church and state (schools). Many in this country seem to want to promote Christianity above all other religions, and make America "Christian". That flies in all that we have been taught to believe about our Constitutional rights. Freedom of (from) religion. This country supports many different religious views, and that is as it should be. However, religion should remain in the home, a personal choice, and not imposed or propagandized in schools or public places. Teach your own what you hold dear, but allow the rest of us the respect and dignity to choose!!!!

[Jon Dorian]

09:54 PM on 12/26/2011

You put (from) in parenthesis after the word of. The word does not belong. It is not the same as of.

You believe that Congress is forbidden to make laws respecting religion. It isn't. The first amendment [is] a law respecting religion. It is a law forbidding congress from interfering with religious beliefs, and it is a law forbidding congress to tax the people to support any certain establishment or denomination.

The Founders wanted the people free to support their own christian denomination. Britain was taxing them to support the church of England until America gained its freedom.

That someone would give a child a Bible flies in the face of everything you were taught, but it was not so at the beginning of our nation. Bibles use to be a required text book in schools:
"My wish is not to see the Bible excluded from schools but to see it is used as a system of religion and morality..."--Noah Webster, Annals of America, volume 3, 1976.

cont...

[taoistpunk]

09:14 AM on 12/27/2011

awww, you forgot to include the treaty with tripoli,

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..."

i guess you'd like everyone to believe that personal letters are more important to government than actual government documents.

quote mining is fun for everyone
so is trying to narrow the meaning of a word like "respecting" when it fits your argument.

the real question isn't who wrote somebody a letter, or what you’d like to think about it, but which court interpreted the laws and how.

under that standard, what you say can be every bit as "true" as your religion..... yet it's still a bunch of BS.

oh yeah, and at the beginning of our nation people also thought it was ok to own slaves and treat children as slave labor too. you may want to think about that while you hold up the founders and their biblical text book times as living idols of the state.

[usmelllikepee]

11:44 AM on 12/27/2011

Sir, if you did a little unbiased research on the founding fathers instead of just repeating what your church spoon fed you, you would see that many of the founding fathers were Deists.

[Jon Dorian]

09:56 PM on 12/26/2011

You have a problem with people wanting to promote Christianity above all other religions; but our nation was built on the christian religion:
"...the religion I mean to recommend in this place is that of the New Testament....MY
ONLY BUSINESS IS TO DECLARE THAT ALL ITS DOCTRINES AND PRECEPTS ARE
CALCULATED TO PROMOTE THE HAPPINESS OF SOCIETY AND THE SAFETY AND
WELL-BEING OF CIVIL GOVERNMENT."--Benjamin Rush, Annals, volume 4, 1976.
"With slight shades of differences, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles...."--George Washington, Annals, volume 3, 1976.
Washington was saying the American people’s Christian beliefs slightly differ. That is why there are so many christian denominations. There is more than a slight shade of difference between Christian and Islam, or Christian and Atheism.

In fact, the practice of atheism was forbidden during the time of our nations birth:
"...while I assert the rights of religious liberty, I would not deny that the civil
power has a right, in some cases, to interfere in matters of religion. It has a right to
prohibit and punish gross immoralities and impieties; because the open practice of
these is of evil example and detriment. For this reason, I heartily approve of our laws
against drunkenness, profane swearing, blasphemy, and professed atheism." ---Oliver Ellsworth, member of the Continental Congress and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court from 1796-1800, Annals, volume 3, 1976.

cont...

[LonaMarie]

10:57 PM on 12/27/2011

What do you believe atheists practice? Minding their own business? not forcing their personal beliefs on others? respecting the rights of others to believe whatever they choose? I'm just finally forced to come right out and say this. It is my personal belief that religious beliefs seem totally egotistical. God is for my team, will end the war in my favor, and loves me above all others. My beliefs and only my beliefs are right, everyone should follow my beliefs only. I have the answer to the worlds problems if you would all only follow my beliefs and mine alone.

[MonikaMagick]

03:10 PM on 12/25/2011

I'm a pagan and I don't really have a problem with this. The Bible contains literature and has a historical context as well as serving as a religious symbol. I encouraged my children to explore all religions -- a person's spiritual path is as personal as their sex life. My job as a parent is to give them the options and instill them with the knowledge and confidence to make their own choices. As long as the Bibles aren't handed out in classes, I think this practice is fine.

[pic001]

02:58 PM on 12/25/2011

Separate already.

[Michaela19801]

02:18 PM on 12/25/2011

I think the lessons in the Bible have value whether you believe every single word as absolute or not.

Aren't the lessons the point really ?

I also read fairy tales to my children and they have value in teaching life lessons.

To say otherwise is to say only nonfiction books have value.

[Abnormal Wrench]

11:06 PM on 12/26/2011

I'm glad you recognize the bible is nothing but a fairy tale, the problem is not everyone is on board with you on that point.

[Michaela19801]

09:29 AM on 12/27/2011

Everyone has their own opinions.

[speedy evans]

08:04 AM on 12/25/2011

the problem is not the seperation of church an state.it's the state of the church in its seperation from reality of the times we live

[Zarz]

02:05 AM on 12/25/2011

If this wasn't in class, just an optional take a bible thing, I don't really have any problem with it. Just like its a parents duty to talk to their kids about sex and drugs, it should also be their responsibility to talk to their kids about religion, so they can make informed choices. Mind you, most schools in America aren't handing out drugs...

[semievolved]

01:46 AM on 12/25/2011

I'm an Atheist and have 3 school age children. I'm cool with it. The more they are exposed to Christianity the crazier they think it is.

[LonaMarie]

04:56 PM on 12/27/2011

LMAO thanks I needed that. lol