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Are ICU Patients Getting Too Much Care? Some Doctors And Nurses Think So

Icu Patients Too Much Care

Posted: 12/27/11 04:47 PM ET


By Frederik Joelving


NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A third of doctors working in intensive care units (ICUs) believe one or more of their patients is getting inappropriate care, with slightly fewer nurses sharing the sentiment, a European poll shows.


In most cases, ICU staff felt they were giving too much medical care to their patients.


"What this study shows is that a striking number of ICU physicians and nurses on any given day are providing care they perceive to be inappropriate," Dr. Scott Halpern, who wrote an editorial about the findings, told Reuters Health.


"What it doesn't tell us is why they are doing it," he said.


While patient and family preferences about life-and-death medical decisions have been at the center of discussion for years, Halpern said, there hasn't been much focus on what clinicians think.


Nevertheless, that could have a big impact on the quality of the care they deliver.


"We live in a society where life-support and aggressive care are provided by default," said Halpern, who studies critical care at the University of Pennsylvania Medical Center in Philadelphia.


When providers feel their efforts are too aggressive, he added, "that may highlight situations where the goals of care could usefully be changed toward comfort measures in a more timely fashion."


The new findings are based on information from more than 1,600 doctors and nurses at hospitals in Europe and Israel.


The providers answered questions about their work experiences and whether they felt any of their patients had received inappropriate care in the past 24 hours.


A quarter of the nurses believed they delivered inappropriate care to at least one patient, while 32 percent of the doctors thought so.


The most common problem was "too much care," followed by the sense that other patients would have benefited more from intensive care, according to Dr. Ruth Piers of Ghent University Hospital in Belgium and colleagues.


The researchers note in the Journal of the American Medical Association that other studies have found ICU physicians often feel they are treating patients whose chances of survival are slim to nothing.


While it's unclear if the new findings apply in the U.S., one recent survey showed nearly half of American primary care physicians believe their patients are getting too much medical care (see Reuters Health story of September 26, 2011 at http://reut.rs/qxdQRm).


In the latest survey, providers were less likely to feel bad about their care when nurses were involved in treatment and end-of-life decisions.


"Integrating the perspectives of nurses and the physicians may lead not only to greater mutual understanding with fewer conflicts, but also to better end-of-life decision making and care for the patients and their families," Piers and her colleagues write.


Staff who thought they gave inappropriate care were also more likely to be thinking about leaving their jobs, the team found.


However, Halpern warned it isn't clear that the perception of care itself is to blame. It's possible that disgruntled doctors are simply more prone to be unhappy about their jobs and the care they give, he said.


He added that it's also murky exactly what the study is measuring, noting that hospital staff often disagreed about the appropriateness of a particular patient's care.


Still, Halpern said, the study highlights the need to explore health providers' view of the care they give and why they give it if they think it's wrong.


"We haven't had any national dialogue about what weight, if any, we should give clinicians' viewpoints in patient care," he told Reuters Health.


SOURCE: http://bit.ly/4HWZ7 Journal of the American Medical Association, December 28, 2011.

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By Frederik Joelving NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A third of doctors working in intensive care units (ICUs) believe one or more of their patients is getting inappropriate care, with slig...
By Frederik Joelving NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - A third of doctors working in intensive care units (ICUs) believe one or more of their patients is getting inappropriate care, with slig...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Pinkasaurus
12:42 AM on 12/29/2011
My father-in-law was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer in July 2010. He immediately had surgery to remove the tumor, followed by chemo treatments every two weeks, even though the doctors knew from the beginning that his cancer was incurable. He did well for several months, but it all started to go downhill this past May. Chemo stopped working, he was in horrible pain, and he his bile duct became blocked by tumors. They placed a stint to keep the duct open, but they had to keep replacing it. He and my mother-in-law decided they wanted to forego further chemo treatments and let nature take its course, but the doctor talked them into continuing with chemo for a few more months. He had zero quality of life, because he was either in pain or sleeping all the time. Eventually, he contracted a severe infection following a procedure to replace his stint, and he ended up in the ICU barely alive. They continued to pump him full of medications and treat him aggressively, until my mother-in-law firmly told them to stop treatments and just keep him comfortable while nature took its course. He passed away the next day. I'm not trying to criticize the medical profession, but I think sometimes the treatments that are given in situations where little hope exists prolong the suffering for the patient and the family.
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jgamble28
ya never know.
05:54 PM on 12/28/2011
My mother is 95 and has dementia. Everyone thinks it's great that she's lived so long but the truth is she has no quality of life. It;s like she's outlived her life. Alls she says is that she wants to go home. She says it till you want to pull your hair out. it's so sad.
04:53 PM on 12/28/2011
It takes a little effort, but make an Advanced Directive, get it notarized so that it can be recognized in other states. You can always change terms of your Advanced Directive if you are legally competent. This way, your family knows your wishes in advance of a catastrophic event.
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04:47 PM on 12/28/2011
it happens every day. doctors are over treating ,or simply not allowing a terminal patient to die, because of one of two reasons. first is the fear of law suits. families are caught up in the medical miracles fantasy and feel that if the doctor asks to withdraw care it is because of costs because dear old dad isnt ready to die at 110 years old. the other reason i have witnesses is doctors seeing a "lab rat with a prognosis that tells him he cant do any harm so we can use him to learn on. either reason is bade. the law suits could have been taken care of during the debate on obama care but the dems wouldnt talk about tort reform. the lab rat reason is usually associated with a teaching hospital.
04:42 PM on 12/28/2011
I have a friend whose husband (71 yrs.old) is a pancreatic cancer pt. (6-yr survivor). The cancer, which he and his wife thought would take his life in a matter of months, has become the very LEAST of his medical issues. The chemo and radiation & surgery stopped the cancer in it's tracks. But that same cure caused his bones to become brittle, his diabetes to go out of control, his whole body to become weakened and his blood to become infected. He had NUMEROUS spinal surgeries and is now permanently paralyzed from the waist down, (includes the need for diapers 24/7.) He has MRSA from dozens of stays in hospitals and rehab facilities. He's lost so much weight, he's skeletal, suffers from delsions due to strong pain meds in his system on a constant drip. He can barely speak and just lays in a bed ......sleeping on and off. His wife, who has been his primary Care giver for all these years just recently became very ill, worn down and drained....and hospitalized. His system began to fail and shut down, breathing difficulty, vitals, all very poor, he ran an incredibly high temp...... when the medical staff asked if he wanted ALL things to be done to keep him alive, he said, "YES."......he's STILL laying in that bed, with ZERO quality of life. THIS is the definition of INSANITY!! YOU form your own opinion.
03:51 PM on 12/28/2011
Leave God and the emotions OUT of the equation. I cannot
tell you how many times I took care of an 80+ year old stroke
patient from the nursing home that came in with a perforated
colon and got THE VERY BEST CARE. My question was
why? I never would see a family member and the patient
never talked before or after surgery. I have to ask you if
you feel your Medicare dollars would be better spent on a
person who walks and talks and has people that love them.
Or would you keep a virtual vegetable alive to perish without
love or concern in the company of strangers at a nursing
home? It's not only about dollars this country doesn't have,
but more importantly about the old people that so many
families have abandoned. Quality of life, not quantity.
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03:53 PM on 12/28/2011
VERY good post, sinop69.
04:20 PM on 12/28/2011
Thank you, Bella. What is your favorite Beatle song?
This user has chosen to opt out of the Badges program
04:30 PM on 12/28/2011
And this is relevant how? :-) "Let It Be."
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bobboreo
05:33 PM on 12/28/2011
AFTER 42 YRS. AS A NURSE THE DOCTORS INSERT TUBES IN THEIR ABDOMENS TO PROLONG THEIR LIFE. THEY HAVE TO BE FED WHICH COST ABOUT 3THOUSAND DOLLARS A DAT THEY CAN NOT MOVE SOME EVEN EXPLODE FROM MAGGOTS IN THEM . YOU CALL THIS QUALITY OF LIFE ?????????? THAT MONEY SHOUKD BE SPENT ON BABIES, CHLDREN & YOUNGER PEOPLE THAT MAY HAVE A CHANCE TO SURVIVE BUT THE FAMILIES OF THESE CANNOT AFFORD IT. LET THEM GO THEY HAVE BEDSORES ALL THE WAY TO THE BONE EVEN AFTER BEING CLEANED & CHANGED @ LEAST EVERY TWO HOURS & HAVE BEEN THAT WAY FOR NUMEROUS YRS. WHY PUT THEM THROUGH ALL THAT PAIN? YES I STILL CARE BUT IT HURTS TO SEE NO FAMILY MEMBERS VISITING. I DO NOT THINK THESE PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE BUT I TALK TO THEM LIKE THEY CAN HEAR & UNDERSTABND ME. I TELL THEM HOW MUCH I CARE & HOPE THEY FEEL BETTER SOON. THERE COMES A TIME FOR EVERYONE TO DIE & I DO NOT THINK THEY WANT TO LIVE ANYWAYS! I KNOW I DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
11:36 AM on 12/29/2011
PEG tubes are the scourge of the geriatric population.
I am also guilty of putting them in, but usually at the
absolute insistance of a family member. I have advised
an equal number not to have it done. Quality, not quantity.
I appreciate your response.
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03:17 PM on 12/28/2011
We need to realize that we are not entitled to live forever. We're the only country in the world that thinks we should have medical care, no matter what the cost and no matter what the illness or injury. Because we don't care about cost or quality of life. We simply do not want to die. Well, we're going to have to face it, because there is only so many health care dollars to go around, and we can't waste health care dollars on 90-year-olds who are comatose or infants who are virtual vegetables. Death is part of the natural progression of life.
03:34 PM on 12/28/2011
Just to add, no one is suggesting you throw grandma off a cliff once she reaches old age. Simply, that at a point were quality of life has deteriated to the point that the risk out way to benifits of life prolonging procedures, we turn to pallative care and keep them as comfortable as possible, while maintaining their dignity.
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03:49 PM on 12/28/2011
Well, Jess, I might have suggested throwing grandma off a cliff once she reaches old age -- but that would have been me right now! LOL My post does sound a little brutal, doesn't it. But I just get tired of people thinking that if they just have more and more medical care, they will live forever. We need a whole new paradigm on dying and death. BTW, I'm outta here if I get cancer or when I get any illness or have any accident which greatly diminishes the quality of my life. It's been a great ride, but nothing lasts forever. Give my health care dollars to a mother or father with minor children.
03:15 PM on 12/28/2011
It seems many of you have lost the point of this article. It's not about giving inadequate care. It is about doing things to people that are obviously pointless and in-effective. Do you really want me to put a 3/4" wide tube down your loved ones's windpipe when they are going to die of their lung cancer anyway? If you really believe that your god is going to intervene I doubt he is waiting to see what I do next! This is about using resources wher they are clearly not indicated. All patients deserve the best of care at all times, however best care does not equal most modern or most expensive.
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ohslimgoody
Nothing new under the sun.
01:50 PM on 12/28/2011
Wow it has come to this. Who is to say how much care one would receive thats awful, what about the people that are in serious situations and the Drs. & nurse say there is no hope, and then my God steps in and saids it is not your time to go. Who are these useless Drs and I'm a nurse to make these types of judgement calls I knew that it was coming to this I see it everyday at work. So I pled with people get as much insurance as you can afford and learn some form of care so if it comes down to it you can take care of your loved ones yourself.
02:25 PM on 12/28/2011
If you continue to live by GODS" Grace then Bless you! Live the life that GOD has given you. Live the life extended you by HIS Grace by being able to walk...talk....enjoying the people and things you always have loved. Forego the treatments! Make each and every Physician and Nurse out a liar by being able to get up eventually and walking out on them.
04:43 PM on 12/28/2011
WIth Drs and Nurses attitudes like this, no wonder why our country is so doomed. Drs, nurses, Health Care providers all care for money and profits than human life. Take notes about those doctors and tell Occupy Wallstreet to expose them and tell your loved one to not use their services to see if they are still making money in the long run or not...
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hannav270
01:33 PM on 12/28/2011
well here goes another excuse for overworked and underpaid drs and nurses. there is no group like these 2 that whine constantly for more pay and less work. there are thousands of people who have experienced the consequences of such employees and i repeat, nurse or dr. you are still just an employee hired by a hospital or clinic.if you dont want the job, get out. laziness is seems to be a criteria in the medical field now .i have seen icu units as well as hospitals that are nasty. the bathrooms are very rarely cleaned, germs are all over. in fact, my sister went to emergency. she is now dead. she picked up 2 mrsa infections, very severe. not the only one who has done that. in essence what they are saying here is that it would be better for all if you leave the seriously ill alone and let them die. keeps the costs down. older people who go to the hospital need to definitely have an advocate there or someone to make sure everything is being done properly. what you need to do is if you dont want to care for someone seriously ill, then get out. i suggest the hospitals start laying off people there permanently,especially nurses, that will help somewhat with the whining about being underpaid or other professions making more than them. this article plainly states the attitudes on elderly and seriously ill. cameras needed at all nurse stations, rooms, and floors permanently.
02:46 PM on 12/28/2011
Consdering you think it is the nurses and doctors fault that the bathroom is in need of cleaning, you obviously no nothing about the workings of a modern hospital. So, why should anyone put any value in your rants?
03:18 PM on 12/28/2011
Yeah, they tried firing all of the nurses in the 80's and the fatality rate skyrocketed. The nurses were brought back and more patients lived and complications rates dropped.
04:50 PM on 12/28/2011
Complication rates are dropped? Aint you that naive?

With the Congress, new CAP - 250K limited law, one year statue limitation, Kaiser HMO Forced Arbitration that completely block patients, deceased's relatives to sue the Health Care Providers, Hospitals, Doctors, nurses for their reliability that's why such fatality rate aint report in any systems anymore. Rates are low due to cover up and control by many level of corruptive management, elected officials...

This is the same calculation the government do to the actual unemployment rate.

Dont be blind, until you got hit hard...
01:19 PM on 12/28/2011
P>S> All that know me know to LEAVE ME ALONE! They are not to prolong my misery. Do not subject me to the inhumane treatment just to keep me alive for my family's benefit. I'm not afraid to die. when my time comes....IT IS MY TIME TO GO HOME!
01:16 PM on 12/28/2011
Prozacme has the right of it. Of the many 70 to 90 years old patients that I have cared for in the last 27 years that have undergone Cardiac surgery, total hip replacements, total knee replacement, the hips and knees not caused by breaking anything, just because the family tells their loved one it's better to have it replaced. 9 out of 10 of these patients never walk again! The cardiac patients end up with pacemakers! Pacemakers after by-pass surgery for goodness sakes! People...let them go Home to GOD. Let them go to be with their loved ones waiting at Heavens Gate! No wonder the cost of healthcare is soaring! Physicians are giving into these people to keep lawsuits from happening. Even if there's lawsuits the primary person involved will have passed on before any thing comes to light. This leaving the family monetarily compensated and the Physician in ruins for greed of the families. I guess these families think Grandma or Grandpa, Daddy or Mamma are their life savings come to fruit! Shame on all of you. All involved from A to Z.
01:12 PM on 12/28/2011
My Dad recently died from glioblastoma (brain cancer). The daughter in me wanted every possible minute we could have together. The nurse in me reflected upon how very expensive it was to die.
02:58 PM on 12/28/2011
Agreed. We felt the same with my grandfather's passing, but in the end knew him being at home on hospice those final weeks being kept comfortable was what he wanted. Instead of dying hooked to an army of machines, he passed with his loving wife of 64 years and all 4 child, 10 grandchildren, and numerous great grandchild all by his side. It is without a doubt how he wanted it.
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04:53 PM on 12/28/2011
my mother had a massive stroke, she decided foir her self that it was not a good life and quit eating or taking meds. i held her hand.
01:12 PM on 12/28/2011
YOU ARE NOT GOD! YOU DON'T KNOW WHEN GOD IS GOING TO CALL SOMEONE HOME SO JUST DO YOUR JOB AND TAKE CARE OF THE PATIET. I WAS TOLD BY A DOCTOR THAT I HAD SO MANY THINGS WRONG WITH ME, THAT I HAD CANCER OF THE BLOOD 29 YRS AGO I AM STILL HERE, I WENT FOR PRAYER AND I AM STILL HERE, PRAISE GOD, I WAS TOLD ALSO THAT I NEEDED SURGERY ON MY BRAIN 25 YRS AGO I TOLD THE DOCTOR THAT I WAS NOT GOING TO TAKE THE SURGERY HE STATED THAT I HAD A SPOT ON MY BRAIN, I WAS HAVING HEADACHES SO BAD BUT I LEFT THE HOSPITAL STILL HAVING A BAD HEADACHE FOR MONTHS, I JUST KEPT PRAYING THE HEADACHE FINALLY LEFT, I WAS 40 YRS OLD, I AM 76 YRS NOW, PRAISE GOD I GIVE HIM ALL OF THE GLORY, TRAM
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ohslimgoody
Nothing new under the sun.
01:51 PM on 12/28/2011
I agree
03:11 PM on 12/28/2011
Same god that let a little girl get bludgeond to death in a triler park?
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ohslimgoody
Nothing new under the sun.
04:57 PM on 12/28/2011
God didn't do that.
02:42 PM on 12/29/2011
THAT WAS A MEAN VICIOUS MAN WITH NO CHRIST IN HIM, IF HE HAD HAD GOD IN HIM HE WOULD NEVER HAVE KILLED THAT PRECIOUS LITTLE CHILD, REMEMBER GOD IS ( LOVE) LOVE IS KIND, RESPECTFUL, GIVING, PATIENT, AND PROTECTING OF CHILDREN, ALL CHILDREN, NOT NOT JUST OUR OWN CHILDREN OUR NEIGHBORS CHILDREN TOO, IF YOU ARE AFRAID TO INTERVENE CALL THE POLICE AND PROTECT THE CHILDREN, OUR CHILDREN NEED TO BE PROTECTED, LOVE, TRAMM
12:55 PM on 12/28/2011
IF THE DOCTORS AND NURSES THINK PATIENTS IN ICU ARE GETTING TO MUCH CARE, THEY WILL BE IN THE SAME SITUATION ONE DAY, AND I AM SURE THEY WILL WANT THE BEST POSSIBLE CARE AVAILABLE TO THEM SO DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD WANT DONE UNTO YOU. TRAM
01:03 PM on 12/28/2011
Sure, I want the best care possible. But, the most aggressive treatment in all cases does not equal best care. The suffering caused by many life extending measures are simply not worth the time added. Quality of life has to be considered. Providing comfort is much preferable in many situations.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
billhodges
Self Reliant Yet Charitable
04:25 PM on 12/28/2011
That should be a personal decision on the part of the patient. That is why we have living wills and do not resuscitate forms for patients to complete with their desired limit to their ICU treatment.
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ssj455
No matter where you go, there you are.
01:35 PM on 12/28/2011
STOP WRITING IN CAPS!!!! IT IS MORE ANNOYING THAN YOU ARE.
01:27 PM on 12/30/2011
THANKS SO MUCH, YOU ARE REALLY READING MY COMMENTS, GOD BLESS YOU, AND HAVE A HEALTHY, HAPPY, PROSPEROUS NEW YEAR, LOVE TRAMM