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Dutch Burqa Ban Legislation Planned

Dutch Burqa Ban

By MIKE CORDER   01/27/12 10:46 AM ET   AP

THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Dutch Cabinet moved a step closer Friday to banning the burqa, making good on an election promise that is largely symbolic but has broad public support.

Deputy Prime Minister Maxime Verhagen said the Cabinet agreed on plans to ban the head-to-toe Islamic gown along with other forms of face-covering clothing including ski masks. The legislation must still be approved by both houses of the Dutch Parliament, a process that could take months.

"We are confident we have a majority," Interior Minister Liesbeth Spies said.

Once seen as one of the world's most tolerant nations, the Netherlands has turned increasingly conservative in recent years and is pushing immigrants more to fully assimilate into mainstream Dutch society.

Anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders welcomed the decision in a tweet as "fantastic news." Wilders' popularity has soared largely due to his strident criticism of Islam, and he has long called for a ban on burqas and similar Islamic face veils known as niqabs.

Even so, the move is largely symbolic – only about 300 women in the Netherlands are believed to wear burqas and they are rarely seen in public.

Muslims, mostly immigrants from Turkey and Morocco, represent about 1 million of the 16.7 million Dutch population.

France and Belgium, which also have large Muslim populations, have already banned the wearing of face veils in public.

Like neighboring Belgium, the Dutch government cited security concerns as a reason for the ban and framed it as a move to safeguard public order and allow all people to "fully participate in society."

"People must be able to look one another in the eye," Verhagen said.

The Dutch decision came despite criticism of the ban from independent advisory panel the Council of State, which reportedly suggested it could amount to an attack on freedom of religion.

Verhagen denied ignoring the advice and said ministers took it into account when laying out the reasons underpinning the legislation.

The government is confident that by citing public order concerns, the legislation will not breach the European Convention on Human Rights.

Leyla Cakir, head of Muslim women's organization Al Nisa, said she was surprised and shocked by the decision.

"You are taking away women's right of self-determination, and it is all based on fear," she said.

But in a statement announcing the decision, the government said it was helping women.

"Having to wear a burqa or niqab in public goes against equality of men and women," the government said. "With this legislation, the Cabinet is removing a barrier to these women participating in society."

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THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Dutch Cabinet moved a step closer Friday to banning the burqa, making good on an election promise that is largely symbolic but has broad public support. Deputy Prime Min...
THE HAGUE, Netherlands -- The Dutch Cabinet moved a step closer Friday to banning the burqa, making good on an election promise that is largely symbolic but has broad public support. Deputy Prime Min...
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04:47 PM on 02/01/2012
How is regulating clothing conservative?

This is just wrong. glad I don't live there.
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10:57 AM on 02/01/2012
If you decide to live in a Muslim country, then expect to follow the dress code which results in subjecting woment to dress codes that demean them. Has anyone not noticed that in extremely hot weather the difference between how women dress and the men dress?
01:03 PM on 02/02/2012
I am glad you are willing to justify this by comparing the Netherlands to autocratic theocracies. If you are satisfied with Holland abandoning the traditions of freedom of expression and religion, and instead embracing the examples of Bahrain and Iran, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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08:54 PM on 01/31/2012
Women should not be forced to wear a burqa, nor should they be forced not to wear a burqa. It should be a choice.
AllegroTroppo
Appeaser feeds crocodile hopes to be eaten last
12:22 AM on 02/01/2012
They have that choice. But not in public.
01:26 PM on 02/01/2012
Ah, the old: You are free to express yourself... as long as you don't do it where anyone else can perceive your expression.
I suppose your next step s to bar women from speaking in public as well, because, after all, they can always speak at home behind closed doors.
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03:28 PM on 02/02/2012
That is not a choice.
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08:48 PM on 01/31/2012
This is a new wave of anti-Semitism in Europe given that many Muslims are Semitic.
AllegroTroppo
Appeaser feeds crocodile hopes to be eaten last
12:26 AM on 02/01/2012
The only people who ever call Arabs Semites are Westerners. when showing up the Jews.
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Talossa
Liberal. Pro-Israel. Recovering atheist.
12:04 AM on 02/02/2012
Thank you. Fanned and faved.
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03:30 PM on 02/02/2012
I disagree with your opinion, for it is certainly not fact.
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loutrerouge
Defending reason, secularism and equality against
07:34 PM on 01/31/2012
So I went through the most recent five pages of comments trying to judge the gender of the poster (based on username and avatar) and their position on this issue. Among those with identifiable gender and a stated issue position, I found the following:

-Support law (anti-burqa)-
Women: 14
Men: 13

-Neutral-
Women: 2
Men: 1

-Against this law-
Women: 3
Men: 13

****

The disparities are unmistakable. Women are almost 3:1 in support of the law (conservatively counting the neutrals as against). If the neutral ultimately supported the law it would jump to 5:1.

Men are evenly split (but well done to the men who support the law)). In turns out, however, that men outnumber women in clear opposition to the law 4:1. That speaks volumes.
08:04 PM on 01/31/2012
Finally, an intelligent comment.
08:42 PM on 01/31/2012
I wonder if the original poster can also determine the courty of origin and religion of the posters from their account names with such peternatural accuracy...
08:23 PM on 01/31/2012
Nice work. Once again and I can not stress this enough, if a woman (or man) is forced to do anything against her(/his) will, that's allready a crime. This new law doesn't change this, it just fines the woman 380 euros...
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CapSen
Empathy. The faculty to feel what the other feels.
08:29 AM on 02/04/2012
That's the whole joke of it. Punishing the alleged victim.
01:34 PM on 01/31/2012
I won't repeat all the usual talking points because i think most of it's been covered in the past.But one aspect that I rarely see mentioned concerning the burqa,niqab,and other forms of hijab or covering is the health risk it poses to woman due to a lack of vitamin D.Vitamin D is made when the skin is exposed to sunlight.Woman who wear these type of clothes especially when coupled with a naturally darker skin can easily develop deficiencies, it also shows in the stunted development of children these woman have as vitamin D plays a large role in the development of healthy children during pregnancy.As such i think the ban should even go further and also encompass the more standard forms of Islamic covering which leave only the face or hands exposed on public health grounds.But coupled with this I think there is quite a persuasive body of arguments of why the burqa or niqab should be banned.
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Erikhuffpost
Anything can happen within the next 5 minutes
03:26 PM on 01/31/2012
Junkscience or what?

If accepted these people need more than their fair share of sunlight on account of skin complexity versus the Caucasian subspecies of Homo Sapiens that is indigenous to the Northern hemisphere, changing clothing habits will change very little, on account of the fact they receive less sunshine or in any case less UV-B radiation in the Northern hemispehere in the first place. Not to mention he fact, people tend do dress up more in the winter, when UV-B radiation for vitamin D production is needed most.

This has to do the angle of impact of solar radiation in relation to latitude and/or the Earth's axis in relation to season. In simple terms, the sharper the angle of impact, the more energy solar radiation contains.

Thus, the conclusion would then be Muslims should not be here in the first place for their own sake.

Right.
05:47 PM on 01/31/2012
The biggest health threat in lslamic societies is intermarriage and resulting birth defects. Getting enough vitamin D is the least of their problems.
05:58 PM on 01/31/2012
Maternal rickets has reappeared in Britain, it use to be a major problem when we were not eating a proper diet, coupled with the country's infamous lack of sun. Most of the cases involved women who avoided sun exposure for culture and/or religious reason.
AllegroTroppo
Appeaser feeds crocodile hopes to be eaten last
11:39 AM on 01/31/2012
And here's another area of dispute with our honored guests.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cd1_1317958099
AllegroTroppo
Appeaser feeds crocodile hopes to be eaten last
11:34 AM on 01/31/2012
There's an overwhelming consensus among Europeans that face-covering outfits are inappropriate for European public spaces.
One can argue whether this consensus is just. But not whether it exists.

Europeans are spending billions helping out immigrant communities and adopting to their cultural and religious habits. And this is appropriate.
But there are certain cultural-religious customs that we reject and legislate against. Namely: FGM, full-face veiling, honor crimes, child marriages and concept of apostasy.
As we should.
02:18 AM on 02/01/2012
Fully agree with all the above.
07:50 AM on 01/31/2012
Dutch Muslims ( ID Party) in The Hague are now agitating to ban dogs.
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CapSen
Empathy. The faculty to feel what the other feels.
08:19 AM on 01/31/2012
They are not. Don't tell lies and confuse the readers. It's hard enough as it is to make sense of The Netherlands nowadays, for Dutchmen, and even more so for the rest of the world.
09:05 AM on 01/31/2012
Hasan Kucuk of the ID party was quote in several Dutch papers. He now claims that he was misunderstood.
09:04 AM on 01/31/2012
I can read Dutch. Hasan Kucuk now denies what was widely reported in the Dutch news media. This is an old story...a mosque in Ansterdam made a big stink over dog-walkers a few years ago.
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CapSen
Empathy. The faculty to feel what the other feels.
07:47 AM on 01/31/2012
I'm Dutch and I can tell you this ban is only being proposed to harass muslims in general. That is the main policy drive of the PVV, the party that allows the minority government to stay in power. The 150 odd women wearing niqabs provide no threat to public security or Dutch culture in any way. Besides, punishing the supposed victim of oppression makes no sense. These women chose to wear the niqab by themselves.
08:26 AM on 01/31/2012
Only 150?? I am also Dutch, living in Amsterdam, but at least 100 of these 150 burqa babes must be living in Amsterdam, since I see them quite often here.
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CapSen
Empathy. The faculty to feel what the other feels.
10:25 AM on 01/31/2012
You probably mean you see the same one over and over again. In any case, this whole subject is ridiculous.
01:44 PM on 01/31/2012
The official estimate is 300... so while 150 might be a little low, it is within the correct order of magnitude.
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loutrerouge
Defending reason, secularism and equality against
06:39 PM on 01/31/2012
"These women chose to wear the niqab by themselves­."

The mantra of the coward, who will do nothing to protect European society from further disintegration of our social bonds. Do you raise such a stink when surrounding nations ban symbols of fascist extremism, or do you just get 'tolerant' for misogyny?
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06:59 PM on 02/01/2012
Interesting how we never hear of any woman who wears an identity-concealing garment confess that she has been coerced into doing so.

We never hear "coercion" included as a possibility in any studies about the reasons why women wear these garments, either.

Ask 100 women why they wear the garments, and you get 100 "it's my choice" answers.
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07:37 AM on 01/31/2012
"Only 300 Dutch Muslima wear the burqa."

1. A symbol of a hostile cultural invasion does not have to be the majority mode to be taken seriously and resisted.

Some things are best stopped while still small--the lesson of WW II.

2. Show-off piety stinks.

3. Burqa/niqab—an aesthetically tragic political statement.
01:47 PM on 01/31/2012
I find it fascinating that you consider it a "political statement," yet then believe it must be quashed, expressly equating it with the National Socialist German Workers' Party's "Final Solution."

Talk about mountain out of a mole hill.
AllegroTroppo
Appeaser feeds crocodile hopes to be eaten last
02:45 PM on 01/31/2012
Jack 's comment is another proof of Godwin's Rule.
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03:22 PM on 01/31/2012
1. Tolerance, like all virtues, has an upper limit. Unlimited tolerance is not a virtue and tolerating intolerance is not a virtue.

2. Any culture that does not defend its values against invading cultures is not long for this world.

Ask any Native American.
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CapSen
Empathy. The faculty to feel what the other feels.
08:18 AM on 02/04/2012
Yep, xenophobia and fear mongering is best stopped while still small - the lesson of WWII. I find it unbelievable how you turn the victim into the perpetrator.
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09:22 AM on 02/04/2012
Muslims today are being treated as Jews were during WW II?

Do you remember all the planes that pre WW II Jews flew into buildings and the terrorist attacks they carried out?

Me neither.
07:27 AM on 01/31/2012
So this is how 'liberal' the people replying to the HuffPost are?

For your consideration, their are a lot of problems with the proposed law, since it would violate the religious freedom to just say we're banning the burqa, the cabinet is now planning to ban 'face-covering clothing'. Excluding, of course, traditional Dutch celebrations like our Carnival and Sinterklaas (black facing? Google; "Zwarte Piet").
But would that include scarves, for instance? It can be mighty cold here.

Besides that the police have already announced they will not enforce the law, since they argue it isn't a public- order or safety issue.
We're forcing our image of an 'emancipated' society on these few hundred women, who already have a choice not to dress like they do. Since it IS a public safety issue if their husbands force them to, in that case they can already go to the police. We have a long history of so called "blijf-van-mijn-lijf" (literally translated: 'stay of(/away from) my body') houses, dedicated to keeping abusive man away from their women.

So I agree the law is purely symbolic, it's a symbol of the new direction the Netherlands seem to be going. Telling you what to wear, going against the freedom of religion, this should really piss you US-citizens off more then it seems to do now. O wait I forgot, religion=Christianity in the US...

A concerned Dutchman
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niko73
Dem belly full but we hungry
10:37 AM on 01/31/2012
I totally agree Dutch078. I'm continually amazed at how many "liberals" are fine making laws forcing women to not wear certain articles of clothing.
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12:28 PM on 01/31/2012
There are liberals and then there are misguided liberals.
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Yasser Yousufi
Parthian
02:03 AM on 01/31/2012
I am a Muslim and I don't have any issues with European countries banning Burqa's in their own countries! This isn't even debatable. There is no Islamic obligation with regards to Burqa and even if there is one (I do not think so) its not binding on other countries. Muslims who want to move to those countries should be making that compromise. A very very tiny fraction of Muslim women wear it any way.

Having said that, if they want to ban head scarves next that's a totally different issue. That falls under religious intolerance because a person with a head cover cannot be a threat to the society in anyway. So that might fall under religious intolerance laws familiar with Europe's past. But we'll cross that bridge when we reach there.
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vrede
don't shoot me it's just my opinion
07:35 AM on 01/31/2012
we have no problem with head scarves..clothing is a choice but covering your face because a man wants to oppresses his women into submission, then the dutch women have a problem. We are free here to walk with men not under him. Also we have a law you must always have identification on you and be seen, with this thing that is not possible.. This thing restricts you in many ways.. Thank you for sharing it is good to hear from a normal Muslim. We have many and have no problem with religious beliefs until it harms. Many old christian religions also had ways that did not work here, like beating your children and wife. Nobody raised hell when we stopped that.
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niko73
Dem belly full but we hungry
10:36 AM on 01/31/2012
There are pleny of "normal Muslims" who don't think it's appropriate to limit their cultural freedom.
01:55 PM on 01/31/2012
"c­lothing is a choice but covering your face because a man wants to oppresses his women into submission­"
Where is your evidence that the 300 women targetted by this potential law are being forced to do anything? Where is your evidence of the motivations of the people you have yet to demonstrate hyave anything to do with the habit (pun intended)?
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niko73
Dem belly full but we hungry
10:36 AM on 01/31/2012
It's a slippery slope. Burqas are first, but once that law is on the books, they'll go after hijabs.
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05:35 PM on 01/31/2012
They all serve the purpose of concealing a woman's identity and, as such, deserve equal treatment.
06:14 PM on 01/31/2012
Good for them, foreigners need to learn that their cultures of garbage are not welcome on our lands.

The only thing humanity has to offer is poverty, and we don't want any.
11:42 PM on 01/30/2012
Good for the Dutch....if you dont want to belong to a country dont move there. Folks that complain about this will start trying to explain away "Honor Killings" next.
08:04 PM on 01/31/2012
You do raise a good point.
The problem with 'Honor Killings' is the killing, which is allready illegal. No need for a new law.
The problem with Burqa's is the question if they are worn because of cohersion, which if that's the case is illegal. No need for a new law.

Also I kind of miss the information that some of these burqa-babes where born in the Netherlands. So they did not really have a choice in moving here.
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11:37 PM on 01/30/2012
If you really want to know what is at stake here, please read this article.

http://www.meforum.org/2777/ban-the-burqa

A burqa wearer, who can be as young as ten years old, is being conditioned to endure isolation and sensory deprivation. Her five senses are blocked, muted. Sensory deprivation and isolation are considered forms of torture and are used to break prisoners. Such abuse can lead to low self-esteem, generalized fearfulness, dependence, suggestibility, depression, anxiety, rage, aggression toward other women and female children, or to a complete psychological breakdown.

Wearing the burqa is also hazardous to the health in other ways. Lifetime burqa wearers may suffer eye damage and may be prone to a host of diseases that are also related to vitamin D deficiency from sunlight deprivation, including osteoporosis, heart disease, hypertension, autoimmune diseases, certain cancers, depression, chronic fatigue, and chronic pain. It is ironic that women in the Middle East, one of the world's sunniest regions, have been found in need of high levels of vitamin D supplementation owing to their total covering.[82]
01:57 PM on 01/31/2012
All very good points. I suppose the Dutch have also banned smoking and poured all of their beer into the sewer because they have the potential to be "hazardous to the health" in even more ways than those described above.
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05:00 PM on 01/31/2012
Your contempt for women is as pathetic as it is obvious.
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Erikhuffpost
Anything can happen within the next 5 minutes
06:34 PM on 01/31/2012
ME forum:

"Mission

The Middle East Forum promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects the Constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats.

The Forum sees the region — with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, corruption, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction — as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies.

U.S. interests in the Middle East include fighting radical Islam; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-Ă -vis Saudi Arabia; developing strategies to deal with Iraq and contain Iran; and monitoring the advance of Islamism in Turkey.

Domestically, the Forum combats lawful Islamism; protects the freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, activists, and publishers; and works to improve Middle East studies in North America."

Nuff said.