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Teachers' Support For Reform Depends In Part On Experience -- Gates/Scholastic Survey

Posted: 03/26/2012 7:08 pm Updated: 03/26/2012 7:30 pm

Teacher Reform

Revamping the makeup of the teaching profession through tweaks such as altering tenure and teacher evaluations has become a policy debate du jour, one that has riled many a state house in recent years. As it turns out, teachers themselves support that overhaul, according to recent survey data.

But that support may depend on a factor central to many of these teacher reforms: experience.

A survey released recently by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, in collaboration with Scholastic Education, asked 10,000 pre-K-12 public-school teachers questions about their satisfaction, environment and views on school policies. The metric of teacher support for certain policies is increasingly important as a chorus of voices claims educators have been excluded from the biggest debates over laws affecting America's classrooms. An actual metric of teacher support is also crucial as education-reform groups trot out their policies to statehouses, claiming a such a groundswell of educator support.

The education-reform movement's rallying cry -- fueled by support from the Obama administration -- has been that teachers should be judged, compensated, hired and fired based on "effectiveness" on student learning, and not seniority. This translates into more intense teacher evaluations that often take students' standardized test scores into account.

The Gates/Scholastic survey found that on average, teachers think it should take up to five years to get tenure -- in many places, tenure comes after three years. About 90 percent of teachers say tenure "should reflect evaluations of teacher effectiveness," and answered that tenure should "not protect ineffective teachers."

Teachers also called for more frequent and rigorous evaluations, echoing the education-reform movement. Eighty-five percent of teachers surveyed signaled that they support the use of student achievement data in their evaluations, but only 26 percent said they saw standardized test scores as a reflection of student learning.

"Teachers should be held accountable for what they're teaching, but to rely on a test that's only given a couple of times a year -- we'd be doing ourselves harm," says Laura Komos, a first-grade teacher in the Chicago suburbs who has been teaching for 17 years. "Layoffs shouldn't be based on seniority, and it's good to make it hard to let go of teachers who are doing well."

Many of these reform measures involve shaking up the teaching profession in a way that makes promotion less dependent on experience. That's what makes the support of such policies from teachers with different levels of experience important for informing policy debates.

According to data broken out by Scholastic exclusively for The Huffington Post, two key seniority-related questions do break down along the lines of experience: New teachers -- defined by Scholastic as teaching for fewer than four years -- were more likely to say teachers should gain the protections of tenure after fewer years. Further, teachers who have been teaching for longer -- 20 years or more -- are more likely to say that seniority should be the primary factor in determining the levels of layoffs.

This could mean that teachers' support of certain types of reform is more relevant to the phases of their career than to their outlook on how these rules affect the quality of teaching and learning nationwide.

"In these two particular cases, the differences really popped between teachers with different levels of experience," said Francie Alexander, vice president and chief academic officer for Scholastic Education. "Teachers who had been in the profession for the shortest amount of time wanted to see tenure granted sooner. On the other end of the experience spectrum, teachers who had been teaching longest were more interested in seniority as being a determinant in terms of workforce reduction."

But in general, Alexander said, "people really want to examine tenure more. Nobody wants tenure to protect teachers who aren't good."

"Seniority is a good thing for teachers who are not performing well," Komos says. "Just because you've been around for a long time shouldn't guarantee your job safety."

Scholastic found no statistical significance -- defined as seven percentage points -- between teachers with different amounts of experience on other questions related to seniority.

The differences in support between teachers with varying experience levels matter less than overall agreement on issues such as requiring more time before acquiring tenure, asserts Tim Daly, president of TNTP, an organization that advocates for more rigorous teacher evaluations. "These surveys give us more evidence on top of evidence that teachers are not aligned to many of the policies that have been in place," Daly said. "This isn't hypothetical. There's a popular perception that these things are in place because teachers don't want them changed."

Daly argued that the findings "provoke questions about our dialogue. It makes you question why these policies have been presented as unchangeable."

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12:08 PM on 06/13/2012
Job protection for seniority is critical as long as compensation is related to experience and longevity. Lets face it, most job evaluations are highly subjective. As most reformists are learning it is almost impossible to accurately define and measure what is an "effective" teacher. Using traditional row-column compensation methods, the differance in cost and compensation over a three year teacher contract between a new teacher and an experienced one can be $150,000-$175,000 or more. This gives an administration tremendous incentive to lower their evaluations of the most senior staff and to boost those of the new hire. Churning teachers may make sense budgetwise, but will destroy the school in the longer term. We just passed a law to eliminate layoffs based on seniority, and the effort to eliminate highly paid teachers nearing the end of their career is both obvious and disturbing. If high seniority teachers are really being laid off for performance and not economic reasons, they should require that any teacher with less seniority that is kept should be boosted to the salary of the higher seniority teacher laid off.
12:21 AM on 06/05/2012
One way we can attract the best teachers is to make our teacher preparation programs more competitive. Requiring all programs in this country to be 2-3 years minimum would make sure all of our teachers are ready for anything. We should also make tenure automatic when you get your job,and I say this because right now most teachers have to keep their mouth shut for three years before teachers can start advocating for their students. If we look at successful countries like Finland and adopt some of their ideas, then we should start to see some improvement. Keep in mind it took them 4 decades to become the best, so if we start now ours will be on top again bymid-century if not before...
10:18 AM on 04/30/2012
One indicator of the failure of public education is the use of double-speak when discussing educational issues. According to current liberal dogma, ‘struggling students’ have been redefined to indicate students who are failing classes or standardized tests. What makes this expression so tragically comic is that the reason these ‘struggling’ students are failing is because they do not DO anything. At our school students who do not attend class or sleep during class and who do not participate in the learning process in any tangible way, are characterized as ‘struggling’. Is it any wonder that parents and educational theorists are confused as to what exactly is wrong with the public schools and how to fix it?
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pjordan
Ain't wastin' time no more
11:29 AM on 04/12/2012
why even write an article on teachers opinion of reform? No one seems to care about ideas on education when those ideas are presented by someone who actually teachers for a living/career.

The majority of those who make the "rules" for the teaching profession are not ,nor have ever been teachers. The majority of administrators only have a few years classroom experience and got out of the classroom as fast as they could. School boards are not made up of experts in the field of education. Those who don't practice law are deemed unqualified to set the rules for the BAR Assosciation, the AMA is run by doctors. teachers are told what to do by people who are unqualified, and teacher recommendations for change may be asked for but I've never seen them implemented.
12:55 PM on 05/01/2012
The difference is this: lawyers and doctors, for most part, are not employees of the public, whereas most teachers in K-12 are. Hence the voters and their representatives get to have a far greater say about education reform than, say, reforms in law practice or medicine.
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09:30 PM on 03/30/2012
What happened to this Obama?

Barack Obama Speaks Out on Education, No Child Left Behind
By Deborah White, About.com Guide
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/ObamaNCLB_3.htm
07:10 PM on 03/28/2012
I honestly thought that this article, according to the headline, was about reform that directly affects students ( new methologies, implementing new programs etc )
been2there
Facts have a liberal bias.
01:39 PM on 03/28/2012
Every teacher I know considers it an unmitigated disaster.
10:05 AM on 03/28/2012
Reform should include removing disruptive students from the classroom; implementing tracking based on academic abilities; letting teachers write lesson plans without wasting their time explaining "why"; stop making excuses for the students/parents; enforcing a strict uniform policy; and the ability to expel a student permanently!
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poeticjustice4all
Past = Prologue
01:38 PM on 03/28/2012
That's not reform. Tracking students, scapegoating parents, not holding educators to strict standards and insisting on uniformity exactly describes the system we have now.

The system you describe has placed us at or near the bottom of global rankings in every area.
05:45 PM on 03/28/2012
Are you really suggesting that students and parents have no accountability in education? I don't care how well I do my job, if you sit there doodling instead of taking notes, you're not passing my test. If no one in your home values education, there's a good chance you will not find it important either. Educational accountability is everyone's job --- student, parent, teacher, administrator, school board. I know it's cliche, but it really does take a village.
07:02 PM on 03/28/2012
"Tracking students, scapegoating parents, not holding educators to strict standards and insisting on uniformity exactly describes the system we have now."

Translation: "I don't know enough to comment intelligently on this subject."
07:12 PM on 03/28/2012
Some individuals schools/districts have been doing this for years, never take for granted.
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tazmodious
Left Hand of Darkness
10:03 AM on 03/28/2012
This article really shows that we still aren't asking the right questions nor are we listening to what the teachers think are the best solutions.

It's like when the district decides it wants to roll out a new program. The district first decides to adopt the program. Then it holds teacher meetings to solicit teacher opinons afterward the decision was already made and the money spent to give the impression they really care what we think about the program.

Teaching is no longer a profession. Teachers are not treated like professionals, which is why I'm done with teaching. Most decisions in education are made by people with little to no education experience.

I really miss being treated like a professional whose knowledge and opinion mattered like it did in my previous career as a geologist. The teaching pofession is demoralizing and I understand why the best and brightest are leaving or not even considering teaching.
11:01 AM on 03/31/2012
We aren't treated like professionals because of the poor education we got in teaching college. Your Geology degree was probably pretty tough to get. I'll bet your teaching papers were a breeze or you took an 18 month night school cycle to get into teaching.
Teaching is not treated with the respect (and fear) we show for lawyers, doctors, or engineers because it is tough to be a these things. Very few average people could seriously even dream of getting these degrees. But anyone can fly through an education degree.
Now...the actual teaching part (which starts on that magical first day on the job )is ridiculously hard. But since you don't get paid anything for surviving that meatgrinder most opt out within two years. Why cry every night for 42,500? And you will never, ever get paid much more than 70,000 no matter how brilliant you are.
Better colleges and more pay. It's the only way we can bring teaching back.
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tazmodious
Left Hand of Darkness
02:40 PM on 03/31/2012
Stating salary as a teacher where I am in Colorado was $32K. The certification program took two years, including the half year of student teaching I had to do full time without pay. The U of CO made me take more science classess even though I had a geology degree (including 4 semesters of calculus, 3 semesters of calculus based physics, 2 bio semesters, 3 semesters of chem) and had worked as a scientist for over 6 years prior. They thought too much time had elapsed since I had attained my geo degree in 1994. The program was ridiculus and the process for getting my certification was a dog and poney show nightmare that also cost me about $500 in fees from the State Dept. of Ed. Getting certified as a teacher is a costly scam if you ask me.
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kjg25171
05:46 AM on 03/28/2012
Talk to me about reform when cell phones, smart phones etc. are taken from students as they enter the classroom and given back as they leave. After you have interrupted class 5 times to to stop texting etc. then you may have an opinion on reform.
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frdafury
There's no kill switch on awesome!
01:54 AM on 03/28/2012
I have always found it interesting that no one has bothered to ask the students anything about their teachers...it is always adults outside of schools, adults in positions of power or anyone with an ax to grind that actually are questioned. Yes, teacher have opinions that change as they become entrenched in a bureaucracy that really looks for the schools to fail and blames that failure on the teachers ONLY. You never see administrators or parents being taken to task for real or perceived failings. I'm not saying all teachers are good or bad but let's be realistic here, if you are going to judge someone for the work they are doing, the upper grade students (5th through 12th grades) certainly know who the good, great and lousy teachers are in their schools. Also who makes things harder, insaner and ridiculous in their lives. Do they have all the abilities and judgments to determine the best for themselves? No but they have one trait that the majority of adults around them do not have and that is a basic honesty and fairness that tells more than all the proselytizing of all the "experts", administrators and parents they are surrounded by.
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Dorothy Moody
Secular Humanist, Independent, Goofball
12:09 PM on 05/31/2012
I asked my adult ed students why they were unable to succeed in school, and the most popular answers were: 1) The teacher didn't make the subject interesting; 2) I don't like math; and 3) I didn't want to get up that early. How do we work around those responses?
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TINA ANDRES
How did this happen?
12:11 AM on 03/28/2012
I'm thinking that "reform" must mean something more than focusing entirely on teachers and how to fire the "bad" ones but it seems that the definition to the Gates organization is entirely made up of this idea. How would the rest of the world feel about major scrutiny of their job performance when they are given the worst possible tools and circumstances to adequately do the job? Would you still be focused on the workers and not the surroundings?
06:54 AM on 03/28/2012
Empathy is in short supply. The rest of the world wouldn't like the sort of bashing that teachers take, but as long as it's limited to teachers, most people don't seem to care.

A better argument, I think, is that most "reforms" actually fire teachers more or less randomly. That's bad for students, since some of those teachers (probably most) will be good ones. More people care about students than teachers.
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mlaiuppa
Pres. Sarcasm Society. Like we need your approval.
11:34 PM on 03/27/2012
It takes some experience to learn how much school districts violate the law, the contract and abuse their employees. You have to be at a few schools and observe a few administrators to see exactly how abusive the system can be and what is needed to curtail that abuse.
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frdafury
There's no kill switch on awesome!
01:47 AM on 03/28/2012
Exactly!
Allthosewhowander
My micro-bio is a microclimate
04:37 PM on 03/28/2012
Well said. For some reason, administrative and bureaucratic reform does not seem to be an option for current "reformers". Many administrators will do whatever they can to maintain the bureaucratic status quo, and protect themselves from any kind of reflection on the quality of their positions and work.
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Grouchland
No day, But today! ~ RENT
11:08 PM on 03/27/2012
I believe that the vast majority of humans are good people. As teachers are humans the same holds true. Unfortunately, people believe that they can prevent human nature from being part of education. It is impossible to employ over 1 million teachers in any state and expect not to see some kind of representation of all human issues. We need to stop seeing teachers as perfection and start realizing that teachers are humans. They just happen to want to teach children. We do not ask a Fireman why they want to be a hero, do we? Why do we assume thatteachers are in it for a reason other than to change lives? If we look at test scores we see a predictable pattern. The Poorer Performers are in POOR areas. This is because poverty and the results of poverty effect the child's development. WHY ARE we blaming the great people who want to help these people? IMHO it is a no brainer that if you are the child of someone addicted to smoking funny cigarettes that you inhale the smoke as a young child. Do you think that this can effect brain development? Can we blame the system for the failure on a test? We are still blaming and shutting schools. All of these ideas FAIL and we still blame? The cycle of poverty is not easy to stop. People are trying. Stop picking on them.
09:10 AM on 03/29/2012
As I posted above, this is a distraction. Teachers are by and large a group of folks without much power or money. Teachers are often personality types who are nonconfrontational, who deliberately chose careers that would keep them away from the rat race that is business as usual in this country. Most teachers just want to teach, and many love their work and are the last people who will intentionally cause trouble. So, attacking teachers is nothing more than a successful technique to get the average American's eye off the ball, so to speak. It is also an issue that is deeply emotional, which means it is easy to get folks to stop thinking, stop questioning.

When I think about this w/o emotional trappings, it the idea of attacking America's school teachers, the folks who MUST operate two income households to lead a middle class lifestyle and educate their own children, I find myself wanting to laugh at the absurdity...until I recall that it is true.
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TrinidaddeGuerreros
The curse that flew right by you
10:10 PM on 03/27/2012
I don't often see much said about the quality of education teachers themselves receive. There has been a shift from learning how to teach to learning content. It is supposed under this model that anyone can teach if he or she knows the subject matter. This is simply not the case.

There are many new horizons in learning theory being explored. Teaching methods should follow new discoveries just as all professions take on new directions as new facts are revealed. This would require a teaching program with rigor and relevance. Teachers should know and understand statistics to a point. They should be able to communicate to parents at a higher level using current educational terms and be able to explain current practices.

Teaching degrees should not be the choice of young women in search of their MRS. degree or a fail safe for young men who don't want to be academically burdened. It should be a degree worthy of the profession and one that implies current trends and methods are researched and applied as found worthy. The medical protocol for the ongoing education of its professionals is one that might be wise to follow.