Classical Music: To Clap or Not to Clap (CHANGE MY MIND)

Last week, Richard Dare wrote about why he thinks classical music today is falling out of favor. The problem, he says, is that we live in a "musical North Korea," with a stringent set of rules built into the experience that can put off even the most eager newbie. One of the biggest offenders is the unwritten rule that says you clap only when the entire piece is over—not between movements, and certainly not during the music.

Dare says this constrains the musical experience, which is rife with "clap here, not there, cloak-and-dagger protocols." He cites audiences in the 1890s, who were documented as screaming and standing on chairs during concerts, a far cry from what typical classical music concerts look or sound like today.

"I don't think classical music was intended to be listened to in this way. And I don't think it honors the art form for us to maintain such a cadaverous body of rules," Dare writes.

The response to his post was impressive, with classical music neophytes, experts and everyone between turning out to weigh in. Those in Dare's camp agreed that music wasn't meant to be experienced in silence; relaxing the rules on when to react to the music would make newbies feel more comfortable attending and allow everyone to truly interact with the music the way it was intended. In the opposite camp, commenters argued that allowing people to react whenever they wanted would ruin the experience for other attendees who were trying to hear the performance. Classical music is generally not amplified the way it is at rock concerts, camp two said, and silence between movements is just as much a part of the music as the movements themselves.

On Twitter, the Calgary Philharmonic opened up the debate to its followers:

A never-ending debate. We'd love to hear ur thoughts! - The Awfulness of Classical Music Explained http://huff.to/JKxpdm via @HuffPostCulture

— Calgary Philharmonic (@calgaryphil) May30, 2012

And others from the musical sphere added nuance to the discussion:

@adamjberkowitz @sensibleflutist @ericasipes @huffpostculture The disdain presented those unknowing of etiquette makes many never come back.

— Michael Gilliland (@mcgilliland) May30, 2012

Some Huffington Post readers felt the rules came from the fact that people who are already in the classical music world can forget what it's like to be outside of it:

"These comments make me a little sad. They are (almost) all from people who already are a part of the classical music culture and view it as an elite club you should have to work to be good enough for. Classical music is not an elite honors fraternity. It is art, meant to be connected with and enjoyed by the masses on an emotional level. You are not better than other people because you can sit in silence for a few hours only moving on cue. The american public does that for hours in front of their TV sets every night. What the author is calling for is a relaxation of standards not so that people will be talking and dancing in the aisles. Classical music will never inspire that kind of response. A relaxation of standards might result in casual listeners (like myself) being able to attend a concert and connect with the music instead of being afraid to attend and sit there feeling judged for several hours!" —Alyssa Maxey

So now we turn it back over to you. Would loosening the rules and allowing people to clap or react whenever the music moves them ruin a concert for you? Or is complaining about these kinds of interruptions just begging for the world's smallest violin?

Step
1

Pre-debate poll:

Tell us your opinion before the debate starts to set the starting line

The classical music experience needs 'to quit being so blasted reverential.'

• Agree
• Disagree
• I'm on the Fence

Agree - Thanks for voting! Please proceed to read the debate below

Please vote to proceed to the debate

Step
2

Who makes the better argument?

Lose the rules:

"Perhaps applauding at all should be banned in the concert hall. The great classical composers would have become suicidal if confronted by these stiff, "elitist" protocols that prohibit the audience's catharsis to the material being presented. I DO NOT favor the concert hall becoming a free-for-all, but people should not be expected to suppress the emotions that were written into the music. The musical purpose of dynamics, key signature, orchestration, rhythm, etc. is to enhance the emotional aspects of the notes the way people cadence their voices in speech to express emotion. Why is the audience there if not to connect with the emotion of not only the composer, but each individual musician and the conductor as if they were an actor reciting Shakespeare?" —flydeltajets1020

"Being a music ed major and aspiring band director, reading these comments shows me exactly why people think the classical world is dying. I'm 23 years old, and I don't want to be seen as pretentious, so high up on my self-acclaimed pedestal that I can't reach those willing and able fans of the art that I love. Why does our "culture" have to remain so noses-up-in-the-air reserved? That's exactly what's driving people away. Yes, classical music takes a level of intelligence to understand: The layers, harmony, form, orchestrations, rhythms, all of which are at a very high level. But instead we're saying, "Oh well, if you don't get it, you don't get it." Allowing people to cheer in the middle of a performance doesn't take away from the performance itself. Just ask Liszt." —AdamBTFI

Keep the rules:

"Honestly, what are these forbidding rituals you're talking about? The only thing a first timer needs to know to do is to keep silent, enjoy the music (indeed, get lost in it) and if in doubt, clap when others clap. Even as a frequent concertgoer I'm not sure if I could tell Mahler from Dvorak but I know I love getting swept away by the sounds made by 100 instruments; I'll get whatever I can from the programme booklet, and if I have questions about a particular piece or instrument I'll go home and Google it to understand more. It needn't be so complicated, and dumbing something down just so someone isn't intimidated to walk in and have a new experience is unnecessary." —UKNY

"How do you listen to classical music in private? Personally, I rock out to it. But then again, I am in control of the volume and surroundings. If I miss something, I can rewind and hear it again. When I go to the concert hall, I want to hear every nuance. The experience is different than at home because it is unique, every time. The idea of feeling uncomfortable because you don't "know the rules" of attending a concert is no different than going to any other event that you might be new to. Go to a hockey game and try to get to your seat while the puck is in play, trés gauche." —Richard Hotchkiss

Step
3

POST DEBATE POLL

Did one of the arguments change your mind?

The classical music experience needs 'to quit being so blasted reverential.'

• Agree
• Disagree
• I don't know, I guess I really have commitment issues

VIEW DEBATE ROUND 1 RESULTS

Agree - Thanks for voting again! Here are the results:

Before

Agree Disagree Undecided

After

Agree Disagree Undecided

moreless AgreeDisagreeUndecided

"Agree""Disagree"Neither argumenthas changed the most minds

Invite your friends to the debate!

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Comments

[Baritenor]

12:55 AM on 08/01/2012

Mr. Dare has been pontificating on all things musical and regarding the iffy existence of many non-profits. What seems to be not known or is just being ignored is that Mr. Dare is the head of the Brooklyn Philharmonic Orchestra which is itself on the edge of extinction. They are bleeding red ink. Yet Mr. Dare finds all kinds of time to write all these in-depth articles and respond at length to the adoring comments. His time might be better spent schmoozing with the monied denizens of the Big Apple in the time honored effort of picking their pockets, than trying to impress us with his whiz bang expertise on about everything.

[James52]

01:41 AM on 07/19/2012

At the Spring for Music concerts of 2011, the Oregon Symphony achieved a rare moment of concert transcendence with their program (Music in time of war) of three philosophically-linked works designed to be played without pause or applause between. The emotional build up from Ives' "Unanswered Question" through Adams' "The Wound Dresser", into Britten's "Symphonia da Requiem", was incredibly intense. I was more moved than I had been at a concert in many many years. It was a bold statement and spoke to the core of this discussion. The concert concluded with Vaughn-Williams 4th Symphony, his most dissonant symphony, written during the years of WWII. It would have been a powerful program even if played with traditional pauses, but the experience was greatly enhanced by the seamless traversal through those three moving and thought-provoking works. Symphonic music has the potential to be transporting, even life changing, and there just aren't that many such opportunities in a lifetime. The respectful attentiveness of an audience gives that rare thing a better chance to emerge.Those with no experience with the sublime may have a little trouble comprehending the rapt attention brought to bear by seasoned concert-goers who seek it, hope for it. Noisy self-indulgent expressions simply have no place where transcendence may be sought.

[Richard Atkinson]

10:48 PM on 06/11/2012

I think we can all agree on one thing, though: people whose phones ring during the performance deserve, at a minimum, this kind of embarrassment:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/classicalmusic/2012/01/alan_gilbert_stops_ny_philharm.html

[Richard Atkinson]

10:47 PM on 06/11/2012

The prohibition of clapping between movements is a recent development, and I've never understood it. One of my favorite stories about Beethoven is when his Op. 130 quartet was premiered and the audience demanded an encore of the Cavatina (by clapping between movements!), but were not as impressed by the Grosse Fuge. Beethoven famously became angry and growled, "cattle, asses!" I presume he was angry they hadn't realized that the Grosse Fuge was the much more staggeringly impressive accomplishment -- but it's a good example of the common practice at the time of clapping after any movement that deserved clapping. I saw an amazing performance of Mahler's 9th once, and the Rondo Burleske was played so incredibly that I felt like some inter-movement clapping was in order, but I was too terrified to act on it.

That said, I do generally prefer silence from the audience during the actual music, and I especially don't like it when they clap before the sound of the last note has died off. Even worse for me, was when I saw Siegfried when it was at the Met last fall, and the audience kept clapping as soon as the singing was finished, drowning out by far the greatest musical moments in the entire score (the final 30 seconds of orchestral music in each act). On the other hand, maybe that's part of the charm of a live performance, and when I'm actually studying the music, I'm usually listening to a recording anyway...

[deejayii]

11:55 PM on 06/10/2012

close your eyes and open your mind to what flows to your auditory senses.

Know that the music is layers upon layers of sounds coming from disparate instruments, some chiming in here and others there, small bits which are the building blocks of the totality of what you hear.

Go to a symphony and look at the individual instrument sections as they play or refrain from contributing to the flow of melodic sound.

Each contribution, however brief, is like a brush stroke of color which makes up the complexity of what you hear. Think of an instrument adding pixels of its own kind to the overall canvas.

And then think about the person who understood the tones each instrument produces and wove the tapestry from each of the huge number of vibrations available - and when - and that matters hugely.

Listen to Ravel's Bolero and you will discern each instrument as it comes into the picture, such as the snare drum's staccato announcement of its presence.

Each musician may play but a few notes at a time or pluck a string, tootle a toot or two then rest for any number of beats, only to return when the contribution is necessary to make the piece "whole" in your mind.

A symphony performance is the ultimate in teamwork. It is neither better nor worse than the many current genres as a matter of taste - but it endures and shall endure. If you ask why then you're missing the point.

[3rdgenfeminist]

11:30 AM on 06/10/2012

I'd love to be able to applaud at the end of an exceptional solo, even if it were the oboe still seated in the center rather than downstage. PLUS I'd like to be able to SIT through the Hallelulah chorus, just once!

[george martini]

11:24 AM on 06/09/2012

I never realized that these conductors are marinating and tenderizing meat with shish kabob skewers while leading an orchestra.

[Jan Allen McDaniel]

07:43 AM on 06/09/2012

The rules are common sense.

Some music needs close attention, some doesn't.

This is true of all genres.

[JBaker]

11:44 PM on 06/07/2012

My experience is that audience members clap when they think the music is concluded, and sometimes a portion of the audience miscalculates. That is not uncommon and I do not regard it as rudeness but innocent ignorance, and it usually fades quickly (and with evident embarrassment). If we want the classical arts to survive we must welcome the uninitiated.

By contrast, I attended a Lang Lang recital at Carnegie Hall a couple of weeks ago that was, shall we say, illuminating. Lang performed the Chopin Etudes opus 25, and after the etude in thirds one fellow bellowed "Bravo!!" very, very loudly. It was jarring. Then most of the entire audience began to applaud vigorously. Lang acknowledged the applause with a nod of the head but no bow. I found the audience's behavior crude yet sincerely enthusiastic, and that is the sort of crowd Lang wants - something analogous to a rock concert. This was not the usual classical music audience, and it appeared as if it had been lifted entirely out of Yankee Stadium.

Alfred Brendel, for instance, attracted a much different audience with a more disciplined reserve, not unlike the artist himself. To each performer his own.

[Richard Atkinson]

10:51 PM on 06/11/2012

Clang-Clang and Alfred Brendel should not be mentioned in the same post.

[Billk29]

10:18 PM on 06/07/2012

I don't go to a concert to hear people yell,i go to hear the music. I'm sure in olden times there was a lot of classical music played while people were dining or dancing and there would be noise but in a room that is tuned for best sound quality and delicate sections of music are being played i don't need cell phone conversations or overzealous people cheering.

[TheFluteArt]

04:32 PM on 06/07/2012

Furthermore, how about we ask The New York Philharmonic Director, Alan Gilbert his opinions about distracting, loud, obnoxious sounds during performance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/nyregion/ringing-finally-stopped-but-concertgoers-alarm-persists.html
Thank you.

[TheFluteArt]

04:29 PM on 06/07/2012

I absolutely hated this article when it came out a few weeks ago. The writing was that from an ignorant businessman, and the respect and integrity of the music was lost. It is not a STUCK UP, CRAZY STRICT environment us classical music go-ers are so comfortable with, but for the god dang sake of the music, silence is needed. The complexities of the music requires silence, and if people were yelling, or drunk, much of the magic from the music would be taken away more so than when a measly cough drop wrapper is opened (the worst).
As for between movements, it doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever to clap between movements. Certainly in a play, one doesn't clap between every scene change (now on Broadway I have witnessed such events for the worse). The work is not over, and the transition of a multi-movement work is the beauty of it, and does not deserve a mindless applause of gratitude WHICH can just be given at the end of a performance! The "Finale" of a great work is entitled that for a reason...just wait for the end to applause!

[playflute2]

11:43 AM on 06/08/2012

Agreed! I find myself growing very weary of articles 'dissing' classical music lovers as strait-laced, snobbish, etc. I have been in audiences when someone's cell phone rang (they let it just keep ringing) and the performer finally stopped and waited until the person silenced the instrument (he also had a few choice words for the cell phone person). There are nuances in classical music that do not exist in so many other forms of music and it can be distracting for the audience to interrupt the 'flow' with applause between movements. Perhaps, we in the classical music world need to do a better job of educating our audience.

[NCBill39]

03:36 PM on 06/07/2012

This discussion brings to mind a similar situation. Suppose one is watching a performance of a play - and one of the actors speaks his/her lines particularly well. What would be the reaction if someone in the audience decides to applaud or yell out "bravo?" Maybe it is the next Lawrence Olivier doing Hamlet. "To be, or not to be - that is the question." "Whooeee - bravo, well done!!!" My mind boggles at the thought, and I feel the same way if I suddenly hear applause after a particularly soulful passage in a classical performance. The rule is simple - be quiet and enjoy the performance until it is finished. There is nothing complicated about that. No "cloak and dagger protocols" at all. 6 simple words. Applaud when the performance is finished.

[firewired]

01:18 PM on 06/07/2012

The only exception I can think of is during Opera. Sometimes, a soloist just does SO DURNED WELL that applause is hard to keep until later! Certain soloists can bring the house down with one good note. Applaud then! When music moves you so much that you feel the need to stand and applaud, it is a good thing.

[Richard Atkinson]

10:57 PM on 06/11/2012

I have to disagree with you on this one. I saw Siegfried when it was at the Met last fall, and the audience kept clapping as soon as the singing was finished, drowning out by far the greatest musical moments in the entire score (the final 30 seconds of orchestral music in each act). I guess I am much more moved by Wagner and the actual music than I am by some fetish-ized opera singer.

[firewired]

11:16 PM on 06/11/2012

The conductor should have waited.  Wagner is the KING!  The Rings live!

[Arc]

01:01 PM on 06/07/2012

It's just common sense and good manners, I would think, that when you're new to something, no matter what it is, you let your behavior be guided by that of the more experienced people around you. At first it may be uncomfortable, but you learn soon enough that there is almost always a good reason why unwritten rules exist; why, for instance, you keep your voice down in a library, turn your phone off during a movie, don't drain in three gulps that delicious glass of wine during dinner.

Applause between movements has always been perfectly acceptable sometimes, especially after certain arias or concerto movements. But it's usually just more convenient, as well as more respectful to the performers and fellow audience members, to hold your applause until a piece is over. Great music is worth listening to. There is no more rewarding experience in life than being part of an audience where everybody is leaning forward in silence, thoroughly engrossed by a great performance of a masterpiece.

[sue2013]

02:37 AM on 03/15/2013

Absolutely agree, Arc. The most basic manner are missing in society today. Absolutely basic. We have 'free-for-all' in just about every other walk in life. I say hands off classical music. Mr. Dare has obviously not heard of the compact disc where music is delivered in a quiet atmosphere into the home. Concertgoers have experienced that context before they reach the venue and this has informed modern protocols. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.