Fuzzy Math Redux

stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust

Posted May 8, 2008 | 10:58 AM (EST)



Show your support.
Buzz this article up.

With results in Indiana and North Carolina showing that Hillary Clinton wasn't going to beat expectations, her increasingly audacious campaign attempted a stunning political sleight of hand. They simply declared that the magic number--the combined pledged and super delegates needed to win the Democratic nomination--had changed. No longer would it take 2,025 votes to claim victory at the convention, as every single living, breathing candidate, combatant, and commentator (not to mention voter) had believed for months. No, the new number would be 2,209. The new benchmark was reached by including the delegates that would have been awarded in Florida and Michigan--if the results from those two states had been counted.

Talk about moving the goal posts.

Tuesday was not a good day for Team Clinton. Most of the gains, not to mention the momentum, that Hillary had earned with her substantial victory in Pennsylvania two weeks ago were wiped out. And with time, primaries, and available delegates leaking away, the campaign was clearly looking for a way to keep the game going.

But the math is still the math, even if you change the rules. Hillary Clinton still trails in both pledged delegates and total votes. She needs to win at least one of those two critical categories if she's going to have any claim on the party's nomination. Let's take a look at the numbers:

Hillary won Indiana, beating Obama by roughly 30,000 votes. But he romped in North Carolina, winning by more than 230,000 votes, for a net gain of at least 200,000 votes--or just a fistful short of Hillary's 215,000 vote pick-up in Pennsylvania. Once again, Obama leads by more than 700,000 total votes. Can Hillary catch him? It's nearly impossible. Looking ahead, even if she wins big victories in West Virginia and Kentucky (states where she is expected to do well) and holds down Obama's margin in Oregon, Montana, and South Dakota (states where history suggests he'll win), she would pick up only about 100,000 votes, nowhere near enough to close the gap.

And what if, as the Clinton campaign is demanding with increasing energy, results from Florida and Michigan are added? If you counted votes cast in both states--without giving Obama any votes out of Michigan, where his name didn't appear on the ballot--she could pull ahead. But no one believes that's going to happen when the rules committee of the DNC meets at the end of May.

The math is even more daunting when you look at the delegates. By most counts, Obama leads by roughly 160 pledged delegates. With only 215 still up for grabs, closing the gap will require a near miracle. She'd have to win something close to 80 percent of those in remaining contests to overtake his lead.

But again, what would happen if you counted the results in Florida and Michigan? If delegates were allocated according to results from the February contests, adding the uncommitted delegates to the Obama column, Hillary would net 32 delegates from Florida and 18 from Michigan, for a total of 50. That would still leave Obama with a 110-delegate lead--and require that she win more half of the pledged delegates in the remaining primaries.

Finally, she could win big among the nearly 300 super delegates who have yet to announce their preference. But if recent weeks are any indication, it's Obama, not Hillary, who's making steady gains there. And unless she blows past him in pledged delegates or total votes (see above) in the coming weeks, there's no reason to expect that will change.

So, yes, there are scenarios where Hillary could overtake Obama's lead in either total votes or pledged delegates. And if she does, she'll have a strong claim on the nomination. In the meantime, she can't just keep moving the goal posts to keep the game going. Time is running out. And even the Clinton campaign's latest iteration of fuzzy math can't change that.


This post was originally published at vanityfair.com, where Myers writes regularly.

 
 

Comments
47
Pending Comments
0

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:

Wow! This coming from Dee Dee Myers, Bill Clintons Press Secretary. It almost sounds as if she is behind Obama. Being the political analyst that she is, I have watched her during this primary season and the other journalists/news people need to observe - this is how they should be reporting - unbiased. She just reports it like it is without injecting anything that would give you an idea who she is far. This piece is the first indication that gives anyone a hint.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 AM on 05/09/2008

maybe this is the answer!

Obama Strategy To Beat Clinton: Ignore Her

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:51 PM on 05/08/2008

Sen Clinton shot herself in the foot today with her race baiting comments. It is sad what the Clintons have become. The super delegates are going to get away from her as fast as possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:34 PM on 05/08/2008

I thought Hillary's comments were just rather funny- in a backwards way. She draws the whiteys, who won't vote for a black man. What- she's PROUD that her supporters are racist? Should these "hard working white(s)" feel flattered? Should we award her the nomination to appease all her red-neck fans? Can we please NOT reward these bigots- by enabling their prejudices? I'd rather lose the whitehouse than put forth a nominee because they have nailed down the racist vote. Luckily, we don't have to. There are far more people excited about Obama than there are bigots who won't vote for a black man.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 AM on 05/09/2008


This is the problem with this whole campaign. Hillary used the word "white" in her description of the demographics where she was getting support. If she did not, then people would have said she was lying. If she said the word "black" the media would have been climbing the walls.

Fortunately, Hillary has given her supporters good advice, which is to ignore the talking heads in the media, who are saying the campaign is over.

They obviously have no idea what they are talking about. If it was "over" no doubt Obama would be proclaimed as the winner, but the problem is he doesn't have enough delegates to claim the nomination, and he cannot get them unless Hillary gives them to him, which she won't.

So, all the big Dems can do is huff and puff and tell Hillary that she should "drop out". But they can't make her and she won't.

These same blowhards say the votes in FL/MI don't count. Since when does Tim Russert determine that 2.3 million certified votes don't count. He doesn't - just another blowhard.

Believe me, if these blowhards had an power to make Hillary end the campaign they would have used it. But they don't.

The SuperDelegates also cannot end it. They do not have the power and cannot vote until the Convention.

Hillary is down by approx 21 dels including "committed" SDs (who can change their mind).

That's it. That's the real story.

Ignore the blowhards!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:31 AM on 05/09/2008

RichLiberal:

Could you explain or link to the proof, of your math, that HRC is only down by 21 delegates.

Because if this is factual, truthful, then she should pull ahead, in the del. count in Kentucky and West Virginia, RIGHT??

I mean, if what you have stated is true, this changes the whole complexion that BHO has a substancial del. lead, RIGHT??

Please elaborate, explain and confirm. I'm sure that if you can prove this delegate count. that many people will take all of this in a completely different light!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:00 AM on 05/09/2008

Just as she once felt that she was simply "entitled" to the nomination, (before Obama came along and proved her wrong), Hillary now magically asserts that she's entitled to count ALL the votes cast for her in the discredited Michigan and Florida primaries. Her delusional refusal to "Get Real" about this idiotic claim might just be the last straw for her future political fortunes... uh, debts.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:32 PM on 05/08/2008

Go Hillary!

How about we do this? It's the only fair solution. Whoever wins West Virginia is the nominee.

Simple and fair. Ask Bill Clinton. Ah shucks, I'll bet he'd be tickled. Y'all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:45 PM on 05/08/2008

I hope you're amusing yourself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:58 PM on 05/08/2008

Okay, we have TWO SEPARATE topics going--the number of delegates needed to win vs. the various gaps between Hillary and Obama. The fact is (and has been for a while) that NEITHER candidate can achieve the number of delegates needed to win.

Neither means Hillary AND Barack. Both. The pair. The two of them. Now, if I didn't know better, I'd strongly suspect that there's been an attempt in the media to blur the line between these two distinctions (number of votes needed to win vs. the Hillary-Obama gaps). And I'd offer my cynical opinion that few people are brave enough to argue with TV-style "math." Or charts or polls.

Now, you state that Hillary "needs to win at least one of those two critical categories (pledged delegates or total votes) if she's going to have any claim on the party's nomination." To what official guidelines are you referring? Is there a URL you can give us for easy reference? To wit, what precisely are the rules governing a close contest in which neither of the two candidates can possibly get enough delegates to win the nomination?

Surely, there's a document that explains this, and there must be a copy of it someplace on the Internet. This document will explain, among other things, precisely what constitutes a "claim," strong or otherwise, on the nomination. We need specifics.

Justify the "math."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:06 PM on 05/08/2008


You are absolutely correct. Neither candidate can get 2024 or 2209, the latter being the real number.

In addition, the statements by the SuperDelegates are meaningless because they have no power to do anything except cast a vote at the Convention. As Joe Andrew and a few others trying to score political points have done, they have publicly "changed their minds" and "switched" their public posture from one candidate to the other.

There may be many supers simply afraid to state their real feelings and are waiting until the Convention to cast their real vote. No one can tell, so it is best to just leave them be until they are called on to perform their duty.

Bottom line: no one can force either Hillary or Obama out, no one can claim the nomination. Much like Ted Kennedy did in 1980, each of them can simply hold on to their delegates until the Convention.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 05/08/2008

2209 being the real number? You must be a Hillary supporter.

Sorry, but 2025 is the real number. By the DNC rules, MI and FL broke the rules and don't count. PERIOD.

You are certainly right, the supers have no power to force Hillary out of the campaign. But they can circle the wagons and explain to her forcefully that for the good of the party, she should. If she refuses, then the supers can do something else. They can all come out for Obama, forcing the nomination to Obama. And if she were to continue to campaign, she would be doing so without the suport of the DNC and that would be like anybody else running, saying they are the Democratic candidate but there would be no validity to it.

And in that case, I think she would be doing something illegal in accepting any further donations. Not sure about this, but I would bet my bottom dollar that would be the case.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 05/09/2008

This is just willful denial. Obama will reach 2024 within the next few weeks. He'll need some superdelegates to get there, but guess what -- he'll get them. And to suggest (as RichLiberal does, below) that the supers might still change their minds is prattle. Unless something catastrophic happens, no superdelegate currently aligned behind Obama will change his or her mind. Which means you Hillary supporters who are stubbornly unwilling to read the handwriting on the wall have to sit around and hope that something catastrophic will happen to derail the inevitable. Pretty sad way to spend the waning days of the campaign.

Obama is the nominee. Deal with it. And unless you want a dangerously conservative Supreme Court, figure out a way to hold your nose and vote for the Democrat. Come on, get real.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:32 PM on 05/08/2008

I want to know where this post was on March 5th and April 23rd. Clinton hasn't had a plausible path to the nomination since February. Back then I could have told you that she needed 20 point victories in Ohio, Texas, and Pennsylvania. Each "win" got her plenty of media attention, but she moved further and further away from the nomination.

It's great that the media is finally paying attention to the nerds in the back room running the numbers, but really nothing has changed. The impossible road ahead of Clinton is the same impossible road it was two months ago.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:54 PM on 05/08/2008

Hah, hah, are those nerds the same ones that do the economic figures that Hillary so quickly dismisses when they all said nay to her gas tax holiday proposal?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 AM on 05/09/2008

DeeDee's been waiting.. I see the avalanche on the way.

Game over.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:36 PM on 05/08/2008


Dee Dee, it's great to see you still in the game behind Hillary, and I can't blame you for towing the MSM line on the counts. However, the only actual real count that I have seen is here:

http://www.diversityj.com/ElectionResults2008Primary.html

This one tallies up all the current votes from all the states with delegates allocated according to the state rules and has these totals:

Who votes % pledge caucus total super total
Clinton: 16,312,319 (47.52%) 1,456 151 1607 287 1894
Obama: 16,401,208 (47.78%) 1,365 290 1655 260 1915

Of course, Obama gets no pledged votes from Michigan because he foolishly removed his name from the ballot to avoid yet another loss to Hillary.

Looks to me like there's still a pretty close race, and given the fact that the super-delegates can't declare anything until they vote at the convention, I'd say Hillary still has a pretty good chance.

It will take a while, but the MSM will eventually catch up to reality.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:28 PM on 05/08/2008

So? It's only "close" if you use an artificial metric that has no bearing on the election, and Obama *still* comes out ahead.

No one knows how Michigan and Florida will play out, but one thing you can be sure is that they won't just accept the delegates as-is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:47 PM on 05/08/2008


Neither the media, not the Obama campaign, nor the DNC can undo the certified election results in Florida and Michigan.

They can complain all they want, but ultimately they are telling 2.3 American voters that their Constitutionally cast ballots do not count. Good luck to them in this endeavor. People may be swept up in the media hype, but last I heard the Constitution was still in effect.

It will be amusing to watch Howard Dean and Nancy Pelosi try to tell 2.3 million Americans that their votes do not count. Maybe Nancy will try to scare us with that false grin that she gave to George Stephanopolous when she was telling him how the pledged delegates should vote a few weeks ago.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 AM on 05/09/2008

RichL - you might want to take note that these are PARTY primaries and as such the party will decide whom they seat at the convention. Your understanding of the history of party nominating conventions seems minimal at best. In the event of a dispute or conflicting slates of delegates, the Credentials Committee will decide which group to allow on the floor. See the Mississippi delegate fight in the 60's. I can find very little in the US Constitution that guaranty rights to vote in political party primaries. If you would give me the Article and section of the US Constitution that applies I would be obliged.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:18 AM on 05/09/2008

And who knows, maybe some day you too will "catch up to reality."

I particularly like your explanation for why Obama removed his name from the Michigan ballot. That's a hoot.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 PM on 05/08/2008

wakeup!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 PM on 05/08/2008

A very fine article. I'm including a link to an article by Robert Parry, who broke the Iran-Contra story.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2008/050308.html
After reading it, I think you'll understand how and why, I've come to despise the Clintons. God
help us if Hillary or McCain is elected. Huff Post was having problems with their comment
system, and I hope this doesn't become a repeat.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:47 PM on 05/08/2008

It's actually worse for Hillary than Dee Dee indicates (if you're going to talk about math, make sure your own numbers are good!).

First of all (and trivially), at the moment it looks like the margin in Indiana will be 14,000 votes, not 30,000, according to the totals on CNN.com. So the popular vote margin is greater than Dee Dee figures.

More importantly, in the delegate count, if Obama leads by 160 with only 215 left to be apportioned, then Hillary needs to win nearly 90% to close the gap (if she won 80% -- about 170 -- it wouldn't be enough, because the other 45 would go to Obama, leaving him still ahead by 35).

Likewise, in the scenario that factors in the Florida and Michigan counts, closing the gap to 110 delegates, she'd still have to win slightly more than 75% of the remaining 215 in order to close that gap. 75% of 215 is 161, leaving about 54 for Obama, for a difference of 107, not quite enough to close a gap of 110.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:46 PM on 05/08/2008

Actually, when I watched, they said approximately 20,000. They just could not bring themselves to say anything less. They are foolishly trying to spin this to make it good for Hillary but it is just impossible. All they are doing is making themselves look absolutely foolish.

That alone is worth watching CNN, just so see what spin they will come up with next.

Wonder what they will do when it finally happens, Hillary out of the race. How the h*ll they gonna spin that?

Oh to be a fly on the wall in their meetings before the shows, trying to figure out how and what to say to make Hillary more electable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 AM on 05/09/2008

OK. Say snotty things about Hillary all you want. You people go right ahead -- but be warned: When she gets the nomination, you'll be sorry.

Hillary and her investigative team have an "October surprise" to drop, very soon. It will devastate Obama, bringing to light some very unsavory activities in his personal past. I know of what I speak. I have been active in the Hillary campaign, and I have personally heard this information being discussed. I know what the story is. And it's bad.

And when the SuperDelegates switch to Hillary, and she's nominated in Denver -- these tacky posts and your follow-up comments will be dealt with. Dealing with Bill's bimbo eruptions was nothing -- just wait for the payback on this. You've been warned.

Hillary '08!!!!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 PM on 05/08/2008

Hm. On these boards, you have alternately bashed Clinton and Obama (it's easy to check these things). Could it be that you're embarrassed to admit that you're actually for McCain?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 AM on 05/09/2008

Ooooooooh - a threat!

YOu must be one of those guys that writes those trash detective stories. YOu know, the stories that those geeks read while envisioning themselves private eye.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:48 AM on 05/09/2008

WOW- living in a dream world.

I thought Bushworld was the land of denial.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 PM on 05/08/2008

I don't really think that there is anything that could be revealed about Obama that would deter the MSM from attempting to anoint him President.

The only thing that stands in the way of this fiasco is the voters.

When the final votes are tallied in early June, I expect Hillary will have the most votes cast. She did until NC, but Kentucky and WVa may make up for that.

As far as the delegates are concerned, she will come out ok as well.

The problem the MSM has is that they think Howard Dean and a few goons at the DNC can disenfranchise over 2 million voters in Florida and Michigan. They can't.

The only thing that can stop Hillary in this campaign is the SuperDelegates. And they can't do it until the Convention, because no matter what they say today or tomorrow, like Joe Andrew they can always change their mind. So, the only thing they can do that they can't take back is their actual vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:04 PM on 05/08/2008

It's simply fiction to pretend that no one in Michigan supports Barack Obama, but that's the only way you'll see Hillary ahead in *any* metric. Give Barack the undecided votes and she still loses.

The superdelegates have made up their minds. They've followed the same campaign just as closely as you and I have, if not closer. Do you know anyone who has followed the campaign that closely and is still undecided? Would *you* change your mind?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:05 PM on 05/08/2008

How many supers has Hillary lost since the primary began?

Now how many has Barack lost?

Try that math on for size.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 PM on 05/08/2008

Oh please !.... If she even tries to destroy Obama she might as well kiss her own ass goodbye!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:43 PM on 05/08/2008

This October surprise business is despicable. Does anyone really believe, after the way she coopted Hannity & Stephanopoulos to try to blow Obama out of the water with Ayers, that if she had any more in her arsenal she wouldn't already have dropped it?

This tactic is pathetic.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 05/08/2008

I believe Smartey is trying to be funny. And has tried repeatedly by cross-posting this same snark in response to several HuffPo postings. If you go to Smartey's profile and look at the other postings, they're mostly anti-Hillary.

But guess what, Smartey -- if no one knows you're kidding then it really isn't very funny.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:47 PM on 05/08/2008

Oh, I don't know.....I find Smartey's intensity and/or sense of humor both dark and delicious. He can't help it if you've got a stick up your ass.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:54 PM on 05/08/2008

If, in fact, Smartey, what you say has any truth at all, and indeed the Hillary Clinton camp does drop a damaging "October surprise" and forces a showdown in Denver at the Convention, what you will see is a destroyed Democratic Party. At this point, Clinton has totally alienated many in the Party already, including key people in leadership positions. Playing nasty cards in the end will allow Hillary to make history for sure - history in the infamous sense, and ruination of the Democratic Party as we know it today. If this is the result that she wants, then get ready for a McSame presidency and more Scalias on the Supreme Court bench. That may be the mildest legacy of such an act by HC should what you suggest come to pass...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:41 PM on 05/08/2008