Florida, Michigan cannot save Clinton

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NEDRA PICKLER | May 16, 2008 10:06 PM EST | AP

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Democratic presidential hopeful, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., walks from her campaign plane on the tarmac in Rapid City, South Dakota Thursday, May 15, 2008. (AP Photo/Elise Amendola)

WASHINGTON — Michigan and Florida alone can't save Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign.

Interviews with those considering how to handle the two states' banished convention delegates found little interest in the former first lady's best-case scenario. Her position, part of a formidable comeback challenge, is that all the delegates be seated in accordance with their disputed primaries.

Even if they were, it wouldn't erase Barack Obama's growing lead in delegates.

The Democratic Party's Rules and Bylaws Committee, a 30-member panel charged with interpreting and enforcing party rules, is to meet May 31 to consider how to handle Michigan and Florida's 368 delegates _ both pledged delegates and superdelegates.

Last year, the panel imposed the harshest punishment it could render against the two states after they scheduled primaries in January, even though they were instructed not to vote until Feb. 5 or later. Michigan and Florida lost all their delegates to the national convention, and all the Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in the two states, stripping them of all the influence they were trying to build by voting early.

But now there is agreement on all sides that at least some of the delegates should be restored in a gesture of party unity and respect to voters in two general election battlegrounds.

Clinton has been arguing for full reinstatement, which would boost her standing. She won both states, even though they didn't count toward the nomination and neither candidate campaigned in them. Obama even had his name pulled from Michigan's ballot.

The Associated Press interviewed a third of the panel members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

"We certainly want to be fair to both candidates, and we want to be sure that we are fair to the 48 states who abided by the rules," said Democratic National Committee Secretary Alice Germond, a panel member unaligned with either candidate. "We don't want absolute chaos for 2012.

"We want to reach out to Michigan and Florida and seat some group of delegates in some manner, at least most of us do. These are two critical states for the general (election) and the voters of those states who were not the people who caused this awful conundrum to occur deserve our attention and deserve to be a part of our process and deserve to be at the convention," she said.

Just as Democrats across the country have been divided over which candidate would make the better nominee, most of the panel members also bring personal preferences to the table.

Many are long-standing party officials with close ties to the Clintons. The former first lady has 13 members publicly supporting her, including campaign advisers Harold Ickes and Tina Flournoy who are working to build her delegate count. Eight are openly aligned with Obama. Nine others are officially undeclared.

"We have to have delegates, and they have to be delegations that reflect the opinions of those two states," said former DNC Chairman Don Fowler, a committee member supporting Clinton. "How we get there is very different because everyone sees these questions of who it helps and who it hurts. I don't think the formulation has been found that will get around the piece at this point." But he said a solution is probably possible among the diverse interests.

Because Obama is in the lead for the nomination, his camp heads into the meeting in a position of strength. It is possible the Illinois senator could clinch the nomination by the time the panel meets if he picks up the pace of superdelegate endorsements in the coming weeks.

But Obama has such a lead that he may be able to afford to be generous and give Clinton most of the delegates. That would help put the issue behind them and help him build goodwill in Michigan and Florida heading into the November election.

Still, some think the fairest solution is to disregard the primary votes and split the delegations evenly between the two candidates. Yvonne Gates, a member of Nevada who said she is keeping her candidate preference private until after the meeting so her decision won't be questioned, said she isn't sure what position she would support at the meeting but that it must be fair to both candidates.

"My definition is a 50-50 split is something that is fair," she said. "It cannot be a situation where you give one candidate more votes than the other. In my opinion that wasn't an election when they didn't have a chance to get out and talk to the people of that community."

It's also possible that any vote that recognizes the Michigan and Florida results would legitimize their elections. Clinton has been arguing that she leads in the popular vote, but that's only when both states are included and it is very slim _ fewer than 5,000 votes out of 34 million cast.

Her accounting also doesn't include some caucus states that favored Obama and where the popular vote wasn't tallied. The measure of winning the nomination is not the popular vote but whoever can get the majority of delegates _ currently 2,026 are needed for the nomination although adding Michigan and Florida back in would change the threshold.

Obama climbed to 1,904 on Friday, according to The Associated Press count. Clinton has 1,719 delegates and is trying to use the popular vote argument to win over more.

Clinton encouraged supporters in an e-mail Friday to sign a message to the DNC asking them to count Michigan and Florida in the May 31 meeting. "I need you to remind them that in the Democratic Party, we count every vote," her e-mail said.

Fourteen of Clinton's Hispanic supporters in Congress sent a letter to the Rules and Bylaws Committee Friday arguing that disregarding the votes cast by Hispanics, 12 percent of the primary vote in Florida, could damage the nominee.

So far, Obama's campaign has not been giving direction publicly or privately to panel members. The Clinton campaign's official position has been full reinstatement, but her advisers acknowledge they are considering an idea before the panel to seat the delegates with half a vote each. Clinton campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press" that they "certainly might" accept a compromise to seat half the delegates.

If their elections had been held according to party rules, Michigan and Florida would have allocated a total of 313 pledged delegates based on the outcome of the vote.

Using the results of the January elections with no votes for Obama from Michigan, Clinton would get 178 to Obama's 67, with the remainder in Michigan who voted "uncommitted" and giving her a 111-vote advantage. The remainder of the 368 delegates includes those representing the "uncommitted" vote in Michigan and John Edwards in Florida, along with superdelegates.

As of Friday, she was behind 185 delegates, so that would not catch her up even under that unlikely scenario.

The plans before the committee will be more generous to Obama. The Michigan Democratic Party has proposed giving 69 of its 128 delegates to Clinton and 59 to Obama, an advantage of 10 delegates for Clinton.

A proposal from Florida would halve its 185 delegates. From that, Clinton would get 52.5 and Obama 33.5, a 19-delegate advantage for Clinton.

"I think it's a reasonable solution to the problem that was created, and my hope is that we'll be able to get past this and move on," said Allan Katz, an Obama supporter who serves on the panel but won't be able to vote on any Florida solution because he is from the state.

The committee is not bound to select the proposals offered and has authority to reinstate any number of delegates and divide them in any way.

An open question is how to handle the other type of delegates each state lost _ the superdelegates who are party leaders not bound by the outcome of the vote and are free to support whatever candidate they personally choose. Michigan has 29 superdelegates, and Florida 26. A total of nine have declared for Obama, 15 for Clinton and the rest are undeclared.

___

On the Net:

Democratic National Committee: http://www.democrats.org

 
 

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Obama's own words, buried by the media and his robotic followers. You can't argue with words because they do matter.

Quotes from the Audacity of Hope, from the 'Great Unifier" Barack Obama. Want to know him, read his book. Of course, that's asking a bit, isn't it?

From Audacity of Hope: 'I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites.'

From Dreams of My Father : 'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mothers race.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white.'

From Dreams of My Father: ; 'It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names.'

From Dreams of My Father: 'I never emulate white men and brown men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself, the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela.'

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:58 PM on 05/17/2008

I was surprised to learn that 84 year old Nelson Mandela was on the USA Terrorist List. He has always shown strength and character. I am sure the GOP will attach his name to the next ad made to discredit Obama. Dr. KIng is a hero to many people. Malcolm made his peace with his maker. W.E.B.Dubois, I was always impressed with his knowledge, skillls and his ability to help people move forward during the turn of the 20th century.
Son of Africa, is pride, same of son of Israel, son of Italy, and so on......
It is nice to see so many people taking an interest in learning about Senator Obama. His heritage is very interesting. As a bi-racial person, it is empowering to realize you come from two distinct backgrounds. Two cultures to learn about, accept, and to teach to your children. Being bi-racial,( half white/half black) also means that whites may not always accept you and that blacks may not always accept you. One of Americans many challenges.

Obama 08.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 05/17/2008

Why are you still posting this? It doesn't serve to support your apparent argument; in fact, it does the contrary. These are positive quotes that serve only to enhance one's positive image of Senator Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:13 PM on 05/17/2008

Are we really going to elect a nominee without counting two HUGE states?

They don't matter?????

Has nothing been learned since 2000 and 2004?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 05/17/2008

They knew what they were doing, and what the penalty was. They didn't care.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:52 PM on 05/17/2008

Attention Clinton supporters:

OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.
OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.
OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE NOT OBAMA.

Please take a hard look at him before you decide not to support him because you ran into a vitriolic Obama supporter. I understand if you like Obama less than Clinton, but to pick MCCAIN? REALLY?

That is all.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:26 PM on 05/17/2008

Normally, I'd say yes.

But since people continue to either actually believe, or more often, choose to believe that Obama is a Muslim; who can blame him?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:38 PM on 05/17/2008


Too late - the Obama backlash has begun.

I'm in Florida. Obama will never win Florida. So I may as well write-in Hillary.

But I'll tell you what -- if by November the polls show Obama is tied with McCain in Florida, I'll vote for Obama to help push him over.

Fair enough?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:39 PM on 05/17/2008

by all means carry out your idiocy limbaugh groupie, you will be bringing about more deaths to the American Military and when the draft is reinstituted, you better pray hard that none of your loved ones get called up for slaughter - because at this rate, that IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN - recruitment is down, and they are going to have to put in bodies for slaughter to replace the dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 05/17/2008

If you guys cost the dems the presidency with this looney write in thing, guess what? You will be putting the nails in coffin of HRC's political future with the democratic party. She will be a pariah. Her Senate seat in NY will be lost as well. I don't think this is something she will condone

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:33 PM on 05/17/2008

In fairness, I don't see how they can ask any more from you. Helping to elect McCain would probably give the Republicans the Supreme Court for the next 30 years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:03 PM on 05/17/2008
    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:12 PM on 05/17/2008

carry out your idiocy limbaugh groupie, you will be bringing about more deaths to the American Military and when the draft is reinstituted, you better pray hard that none of your loved ones get called up for slaughter - because at this rate, that IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN - recruitment is down, and they are going to have to put in bodies for slaughter to replace the dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:42 PM on 05/17/2008

Of course, if rogue Hillary supporters (even only with Hillary's tacit approval) split the Democratic vote and contribute to Republican retention of the White House for another four years (which is pretty much a sure thing in a three way race), her career in the Democratic party will be finished.

She'll never have a prayer of getting the 2012 Democratic nomination. She'll probably lose her Senate seat that year as well.

So, I really, really recommend writing Hillary in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:26 PM on 05/17/2008

Well, writing Hillary in splits the Democratic electorate in half.

Even in blue states, Republican presidential candidates manage 40-45% of the vote in all but a handful of states, so if you split the other 55-60% down the middle, McCain's Electoral College map will probably resemble Ronald Reagan's in 1984,as he may win every state except perhaps for DC, MA, and RI.

As Democratic as the 111th Congress is likely to be, having a Republican president to balance it out would probably be the safest outcome. So I highly recommend writing Hillary in.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 05/17/2008

Clinton Will Win The Nomination ..... Michigan & Florida Will Be Key To Her Victory !!!
Do The Reserch !!!! ..... Yes The Math Is In her favor !!!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:13 PM on 05/17/2008

Go on back to "Hillaryis44" or "MyDD" with your sorry excuses for solid math.
Show me a solid mathematical pathway for Hillary to gain the nomination and I will be more than happy to listen. Otherwise take you republican divisiveness and please keep it tot yourself.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:55 PM on 05/17/2008

Look, she had a good run. She was a fierce competitor, but she lost. She showed a lot of heart, but the bottom line is that she was not only running against Sen. Obama¦ she was also running against a historic movement.

We need to mend the rift between us¦ Sure there are differences between Hillary and Barack, but they pale in comparison to McCain.

This election is too important¦ We have too much to lose.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:05 PM on 05/17/2008

They don't seem to care about our country and she is incouraging it big time!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:35 PM on 05/17/2008

I did the math Beastyboy. I added and subtracted all the numbers, number of delegates, number of popular votes, numbers of states left, etc., etc, etc. Then I multiplied it and divided it. Turned it all into and algebraic equation, then took the first and second derivitives. Then I intigrated it back into the original equation just to make sure.
Guess what Beasty. There ain't no friggen way she can win!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:01 PM on 05/17/2008

Check Again .... Reseach It .....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 05/17/2008

It's been well researched. Trolls can't count.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:47 PM on 05/17/2008

Just troll it. Much easier than math.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:27 PM on 05/17/2008

Why don't you do us all a favor and show us your work, like you have to do in any math class I've ever been in. Either that or provide links. After all, nothings impossible. Doug Flutie did complete that Hail Mary. bushit and "shoot 'em in the face" cheney have apologized once...oh wait, I guess some things aren't possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:45 PM on 05/17/2008

Look At The Count ..... Research It .....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 PM on 05/17/2008

I have.
Your claim is bogus.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:48 PM on 05/17/2008

I thought so. If you can't show your work the answer doesn't count. Looks like you get an F.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 PM on 05/17/2008

And that old warhorse, new math, has been replaced by the avant garde imaginary math!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:17 PM on 05/17/2008

It's The Truth !!! Research It !!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 PM on 05/17/2008

Although math has come a long way since the eighteenth century, when people routinely capitalized nouns and all proper pronouns in their writing, your math is still nothing more than wishful thinking.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:36 PM on 05/17/2008

LOL. You're kidding, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 PM on 05/17/2008

It's sad.But the troll is serious. That's the plight of trolls. Can't think. Can't count. Can only grunt nonsense.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:49 PM on 05/17/2008

I Am Not Kidding ..... Research It !!!!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 PM on 05/17/2008

Dude, it's ok. Shh. Shh. It's ok.

I know. You did try. I know. Shh.Shhhhhh. Sleep now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:44 PM on 05/17/2008

It seems VERY unlikely that the rules committee will seat either delegation 'as is', but will more likely now make each a state of 'half-vote' delegates as are the U.S. voting territories. Because the 'as is' seating will no longer really help Hillary anyway, giving these states a free-pass with no penalty could cause half of ALL 2012 primaries and caucuses to be scheduled before January 1, in 2011, as each state tries grabbing for a bit more relevancy. THAT would be asking for serious trouble.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 AM on 05/17/2008

Of course that's precisely the motivation for penalizing them in the first place.

And when Hillary Clinton speaks of "Michigan and Florida haven't been resolved", she of course means resolved to her satisfaction, which is nothing less than being fully counted as is.

Which was a nonstarter from the beginning.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 AM on 05/17/2008