Does anyone believe these grown men and women have lived for generations believing the abuse of children is acceptable? These people are quilty of atrocities on U. S. soil and are getting away with it. No matter if you personally believe in "small government" and its limits of involvement in peoples' lives, what is wrong is still wrong. Just because these people live on their own land, away from the view of society, doesn't mean they are free to do whatever they want to helpless children. It absolutely doesn't mean the government should feed them by providing food stamps to all the women who are bearing children there. What happened to the "new rules" of welfare? Are the women of this cult made to work at a job like the many women of the country must do to receive federal assistance?
Warren Jeffs' FLDS Church and What I Left Behind
Ever since the raid on the YFZ Temple in Eldorado, Texas in early April, America has been taking a long look at the polygamous lifestyle of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). At this point you've probably heard about the strange bed in the top of temple. You've heard about the DNA tests, the anonymous phone call, and the difficult decision to take the kids away from their mothers. Everyone, and I mean everyone, I talk to seems to have an opinion on this issue--whether it's how terrible Texas is for removing the kids or how terrible the parents are for allowing the kids to be there in the first place.
It's hard to understand what it means to be in the FLDS unless you've lived there. It's even harder to understand how little freedom there is for women to choose for themselves. For eighteen years of my life I was an FLDS member. I wore long pioneer style dresses, styled my hair in the FLDS up-do fashion, and I believed that Warren Jeffs was the prophet--the embodiment of God on earth. When I was fourteen years old, I, like many young FLDS girls, was forced by Jeffs to marry a man whom I did not want to wed. My husband to be was not a fifty-year-old man, he was my nineteen year old first cousin.
When I learned about my coming marriage, I did everything I could to stop it--even going to the top men in the church and begging them to give me just a few more years before marriage so that I could grow up. My pleading was met with rejection. They told me the marriage was God's will; if I didn't go through with it, I would be banished from my house and most likely from the FLDS. Worst of all though, I would lose my family.
A fourteen year old girl faced with that "choice" doesn't really have one. After a week of pleading my case, I whispered "okay" when they asked me if I took this man to be my husband. What followed were the three most difficult years of my life, years spent stuck in this marriage that I did not want.
Eventually I fled my marriage and the FLDS to start a new life with another former FLDS member, a man who helped give me the strength to leave. The day that the YFZ raid took place, I was leading my new life, far away from the FLDS. That day, I received a call from a member of the Texas law enforcement involved in the raid. His question was a simple one: could I go down there and help them? The magnitude of what was going on was just beginning to become clear and they needed help learning about the people inside FLDS. A few short hours later I was on a plane to Eldorado.
All at once, I was put back into the world that I'd left behind. During my time in Texas, I saw incredible displays of generosity and unfortunate amounts of pain. I saw FLDS women, holding their heads up high, defiant as officials loaded them onto buses. I saw the FLDS men, cowering behind the scenes, afraid to so much as walk their wives and children to the waiting cars. I saw how the Texas authorities did everything they could to understand the people and their beliefs. But most of all, I saw two sides that were put in an incredibly hard situation. It was my job to try a build a bridge between those two sides, to provide everyone working on this investigation with knowledge of the culture and the mindset these men and women and children were in.
After returning from Eldorado, I had a chance to revisit my past again, when I traveled to Alta Academy, where I had gone to school from first to sixth grade. Though it's slated for demolition today, Alta Academy was once the center of FLDS life in Salt Lake City. The building is now abandoned, but here is the exclusive footage from my trip back there, to the building where Warren Jeffs taught me what it meant to be a good and obedient FLDS girl. As you go on this tour with me, if you'd like more information please click here.
Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to
While most of these people had been brought up in it or brainwashed, or both, I don't think they're blameless. Some of the ladies were questioned and let slip that the rules had been different back in Colorado City. They were aware that what they were doing was illegal, and lied about it to authorities after the raid.
Welfare fraud is huge in these communities. In the case of Colorado City, even the police and government were either members or compliant, and up til recently have been pretty good at blocking investigation. With Jeffs in prison and others under a microscope hopefully there will be big changes and justice served.
Goggle Catholic church vandalised by dumb Mormons
It was a wholly fabulous myth
and i, i was so earger to believe
a fool with a capitol "F"
i confess.
whats sacred Mort is loving other's as yourself.
religion ... the candy coated arrogance of man
and what Galileo told them nearly four century's ago
the still don't fully understand
although they did finally apologize in 1992
evidently when "your appointed as a god"
that's the best you can do !!
and i do love you Mort.
so let sabre sharpen sabre
and mind, mind.
peace.
thankyou
Funny headline for that article on some stupid kids.
And yes, love is what it's all about. Definitely sacred in my book.
Peace to you!
ARTICLES ON THIS CASE FROM AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION WEBSITE:
http://www.abajournal.com/search/results/a8a8b1f48a42e752db2bbdd01044775d/
Hope some of you take the time to read these. I've decided not to write on this topic any more. Too much like the Tower of Babel.
"The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize that at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that this center is really everywhere, it is within each of us." Chief Big Thunder, Penobscot Tribe, Abenaki Nation
MORT,
My point from the beginning has been concern for the mental and emotional well-being of the children who were taken from their families, treated like refugees in that shelter, and then separated from their siblings and scattered across the state into group homes and foster care. My concern is for the civil rights of these children and for any of the parents who were not involved in abusive, criminal activities. My concern is that the state of Texas has created a degree of trauma in their lives which may be more damaging to these poor little children than living on the YFZ Ranch. That's basically it.
Off topic, but I love New England. Served my mission there and married a girl from Mass.
Go Red Sox!
You're funny. My family is from Salem and Gloucester, but it turned condoland, so we headed for the hills of northern Maine. Right now it's black fly season so I run out, do a bit of gardening, get swarmed by a kamikaze squad of the little bastids, and run for shelter. Sox & Patriots = go.
In case you come back.... My wife is from Worcester. I had a little apt across the river from Fenway back when the Sox and the Reds went to the world series in the 70's. You didn't need a tv or radio. You could tell what was happening by the screaming crowd!
We had a couple of sister missionaries up in Dover-Foxcroft. They went out contacting when it was 90 below with the windchill and got badly frostbitten. Maine is nice, though. Bastids... love it! Now I'll have to get out my old "Bert & I" tapes and take a trip down memory lane.
Good talking to ya. You sound like a really nice person. Hope I didn't offend you in this thread. Take care!
Valid concerns. How would you have handled the situation? And would it change your perspective if your daughter was one of those children?
Oh! Never say never, I guess. Just couldn't resist.
I would have called Allan Deshowitz for a referral to the most brilliant, toughest, roughest badass civil rights lawyerboy from north of the Panhandle to represent me, and my daughter would not have spent 24 hours in that filthy, disease-infested convention enter where 464 children were made to sleep on cots and live for 4 weeks.
TTFN See you 'round clown.
Good answer! It's been fun. We'll have to joust again sometime.
As to the naked touching that finally ended in the 90's Mort
The more sincere answer would have been, we don't do that anymore !
"There's really only one way out when forced to believe"
""They learn to deceive"
"And serve a devil forever"
"If you cower a boy when he's young, he'll never be a man !!
it's just all so sad !!
Sorry, Always. You obviously want to say something with your disconnected quotes and casual references. Let's be clear, I won't have a flippant discussion here about the temple or anything else that's sacred. Not because I have anything to hide, which I don't. But because HuffPo is a caustic environment that treats anything sacred with contempt. If you want to discuss what I believe, or the history of the church and action of its members, I'm ready for it.
In fact, we did have a nice discussion some time ago and I found you to be an interesting, caring person. This cynical mask you put on doesn't do you justice. Peace!
im still a caring person
thats why i say never let the mormons in.
experience
who destroyed Joseph's senior year !!
they did !
and sacred, isn't that what the flds tryed to pull !!
are you confusing FLDS and LDS?
Who is Joseph and what did someone do to him?
Oh, and I also don't really care if folks want to do the one legal marriage/multiple concubine "big love" thing. Consenting adults, and all. Some really charismatic men probably could persuade some adult women to agree to live together in a harem, especially if he makes that offer-of-a-lifetime to enough women. Out of say a thousand women, a handful will likely say yes to anything, especially if they don't think of the civil and legal mess it creates.
It becomes something else entirely, when these big lovin' men get tired of pitching this unusual lifestyle to grown women, and turn their intentions toward children.
I agree with you. I have no objection if consenting adults opt for polygamous marriage as long as everything is out in the open and no one is purposefully deceived. Any such acts between adults and underage children is unfortunate and the state has an obligation to step in and protect the children.
Adult sex with underage girls is a violent crime called "rape". There is no such thing as "consent" for minors.
The only question should really be what degree of rapes have been committed, who did the raping, and what level of criminal participation (aiding, and abetting) should be assigned to ALL the compound's adults---including the grown women. If those women so much as stood by in silence violent crimes were committed in their midst, they should be prosecuted, because the male rapists would not have been able to rape without the "help" of many if not all the adult women. After all, even violent criminals eventually need clean undies and a good meal.
Rape is rape, whether it's committed by a thug brandishing a knife, or a preacher waving a Bible.
Right to worship has really nothing to do with it. I don't care if folks want to worship the God of Earthworms, wear propeller caps, and live in boxcars, when they start systematically committing acts of serious violence on children, it's time for the authorities to step in.
I think you've jumped in on this without reading what other folks have been trying to share. One of the facts in this case is that so far, the State of Texas has produced evidence of systematic acts of violence or sexual molestation. And yet children have been taken from their homes, held in mass shelters for a month, and now dispersed across the state to group homes and foster care. All without individual charges being made against their parents. An entire community is being held responsible for illegal acts which have yet to be proven.
There are no comments on this thread which advocate the rights of rapists and molesters. I know that some people have accused me of this, but they are misguided.
I'm sorry, but polygmy is no different than gay marriage, all polygmist should move to California and let the Government of California pass a law legalizing it.
Trueheart
So what you're saying is that the double handful (or more) of teenage girls pregnant and/or who are mothers of one or more additional children (all unrefutable evidence of having had sex, unless you're into mass divine conception, too), all had sex with boys around their own age or below the 2 year cut-off?
Of course you're not saying that! Of course you 're not keen on DNA testing to assign correct biological paternity to those children!!! Of course you're not keen on doing whatever it takes to keep those children from being systematically raped, with no recourse!
I've even heard one preacher rationalize that because it's a biological fact that young girls naturally start lusting after boys/men starting at around age 14 if not before, and will often have sex around that time if left to their own devices [AND, there's little else in life to look forward to], it's not a crime for a man to quench those natural, "God-given" desires by taking these children as wives, all with God's blessing of course. A godly version of "if she bleeds she breeds". Yep. Heard a Man of God say that on a radio program just this wkend.
Rape is rape, buddy, I don't care how big you claim your Bible is or how loud you thump it.
Trueheart, you're spending lots of time and energy defending the families and condemning the state for this. I'm sure your heart is in the right place, and you should be commended for your vigor. There are cases where the state intrudes on families, and also where children are treated badly in the system. Those are tough problems that need attention.
But you might also try seeing this from the perspective of those of us whose children have suffered at the hands of abusers. Here the state is called in on a complaint and they find children who are and have been pregnant and the whole community lying, hiding and distorting the truth to avoid the consequences. That's a big red flag, regardless of what they believe, religion-wise. If there are children in peril and we don't act to save them, or do too little too late, more lives are destroyed.
And constitution-wise, those children have as much right to safety, liberty and the persuit of happiness as you and I. Whether the perpetrators are strangers, parents or church leaders, the children deserve our help.
I am trying to figure out what you think I am saying.
You can't state that there are 24 underaged girls who are either pregnant or have children. The CPS has varying and contradictory numbers on this. Some of the young women who refused to answer questions or undergo gynecological examinations were assumed to be teenagers because they "looked young." Others, who are in their 20's now, may have been 14 (which was the legal age in Texas) when they had their children, but there is debate about this. In actuality, CPS could only find 3 teenagers who were pregnant, and one of them turned 18 while she was in custody. It's just not as cut and dried as you think it is.
That preacher you quoted sounds awfully crude. I probably would have turned my radio off, and most certainly wouldn't have joined his congregation.
Rape can be either statutory, which involves age parameters for the perpetrator and victim, as defined by state legislatures. Statutory rape does not have to involve force, and in fact may involve consent. First degree sexual assault is not consensual and involves force.
Actually, I'm not thumping a Bible, or any Holy Book. I'm thumping the Constitution, Amendment 1 which guarantees your right to religious freedom, and the Common Law principle which holds that if you are charged with a crime, prosecutors must prove beyond a reasonable doubt , each element of the charges--it's called Presumption of Innocence.
The state of Texas isn't going to present any evidence to you (or us).
They only have to present it to the judge.
Oh duh! And if you want to find out how the case(s) are proceeding, and what evidence the State of Texas is using to prosecute, you can follow the coverage by news reporters at the Salt Lake Trib, Deseret News, Star Telegram, Associate Press.
Oops! What a dope. Meant to say tha Stte of Texas has NOT produced evidence of systematic...
Someone made a comment about whether or not intellectual abuse can be protected under freedom of religion. What is intellectual abuse? Who would define it? You? Me? An academic council? A graduate of some community college social work program? What state or federal government agencies would police families to protect children from intellectual abuse? How much do you want government to intervene in your family life?
When I went to grammar school in the late 1950's and 60's, my world view, as defined by the teachings of my parents, was very much challenged by the teachings of the state-owned schools I attended. Why? My parents were artists, beatniks, ban-the-bomb types who gave their children the freedom to explore religions other than Christianity, and encouraged us to challenge authority. Boy, were we ever bullied at school and constantly put down by teachers. But we children survived.
Was our upbringing abusive or neglectful? It certainly wasn't easy, but as a consequence of being different, we learned to deal with bullies, and to use humor as a weapon against small-minded prejudice. What I am trying to say, I guess, is that in the course of defining ourselves, there are certain struggles which are up to us to fight on our own . And finding our own intellectual integrity is one of those.
It's easy one word will describe it. Brainwashing.
Mort said: It's also easy to argue that people who don't understand tend to make silly arguments. Revelation was important in ancient times. Why would modern times be any different, or less deserving?
Revelations are *not* important.
Revelations are a snake oil salesman's friend.
Revelations are fraud.
I understand them just fine.
You better believe in the book of Revelations because 2/3 of the teachings in it have already happened. When it is finished, you will have fire from heaven, and only 1/6 of the world will be left, Think about that thats about the size of the United States, not that any of the U.S. will be left.
It's too bad you limit yourself with a closed mind. There's a whole world of beauty, wonder and goodness out there that you'll likely never glimpse.
I don't need any glimpses of supernatural idiocy.
I can glimpse plenty of beauty, wonder and goodness without it.
Who do you think made all that beauty, wonder, and goodness Our supreme being.
I used to love serloin steak. Then I decided to try a tenderloin and found out what I was missing. And some folks are just satisfied with ground chuck and hamburger helper.
I'm glad you were able to escape. Best wishes to you.
Something terrible has happened to America over the last two decades or so. it's got worse in the last 8 years since those who would make the country a theocracy have gained political power. There no longer seems to be that much difference between the Taliban in Kabul and the leaders in Washington. There's been a retreat from the enlightement of America's founding fathers and a withdrawal into religious obscurantism. What happened to that fresh young nation that broke away from old world dogma and by secularising and availing itself of the power of science became free and great? The place has become a laughing stock among more enlightened nations as well as a threat to itself.
America was envied, even admired, when I grew up in the 50s and 60s. Sad to see it becoming the intolerant home of swooning happy clappers and snake handlers in the thrall of slimes like Swaggert (direct line to the president), monsters like the 'Rev' Fred Phelps and paedophile old men of the FLDS who resort to the cry of "religious freedom". Watching what's happened to America I'm forced to agree with Richard Dawkins. It's not religious extremism that is the real problem, it's religion. Irrationalism and supernaturalism are rife in America andshe will lose her place in the world becasue of it. A country that allows children to be cut off from the world and sexually abused in the name of religious freedom has surely lost its way.
Posted May 17, 2008 | 08:21 AM (EST)