A Talk with Gail Collins on Obama

stumble digg reddit del.ico.us news trust mixx.com

Posted July 10, 2008 | 10:14 PM (EST)



Show your support.
Buzz this article up.

"We have to have a talk about Barack Obama," says Gail Collins in her NYT op-ed today. She is directing her comments squarely at people like me:

I know. You're upset. You think the guy you fell in love with last spring is spending the summer flip-flopping his way to the right... So you're withholding the love. Also possibly the money.

That's me all right. I have vocally advocated that for the month of July Obama supporters who are angry about his FISA cave-in should donate money to Senator Feingold instead of Obama.
Well, Gail, I couldn't agree more that we need to have a talk about Obama, and there is no one I would rather talk with than you, one of my favorite political writers. So let's talk!

You suggest that Obama's more progressive supporters have willfully ignored his call for a new political coalition based on good government and the common ground of rational policy. They have simply had their hands over their ears, have no one to blame but themselves for their current unhappiness.

I just don't know what candidate you're talking about. Think back. Why, exactly, did you prefer Obama over Hillary Clinton in the first place? Their policies were almost identical -- except his health care proposal was more conservative. You liked Barack because you thought he could get us past the old brain-dead politics, right? He talked -- and talked and talked -- about how there were going to be no more red states and blue states, how he was going to bring Americans together, including Republicans and Democrats. Exactly where did everybody think this gathering was going to take place? Left field?

Certainly there are some who are not prepared to leave their quarantined space in "left field," and who will balk at the compromises necessary to broaden the playing field. But not me.

I am excited about Obama's project of building a new coalition based on finding rational common ground on controversial issues. The question is this: common ground with who?

Common ground with young evangelicals who are more concerned with climate change than homophobia, and think social justice is a bigger deal than partisan politics? Hooray! I have been an early and consistent champion of Obama's outreach to evangelicals (see this post among others). Just last week I was a guest on Air America, defending Obama's evangelical outreach to an audience of skeptical progressives.

Common ground with younger Cuban Americans who are longing to get beyond the politics of their parents? Wonderful!

Common ground with blue collar workers (Reagan Democrats) who are being pushed to the wall by globalization and recession? I'm there!

I know that a new coalition that includes these groups will involve many compromises I will be uncomfortable with, on touchy issues like abortion, guns, and foreign policy. But I am ready for that. In fact, I am so fed up with the politics of the last 30 years I can't wait! How are we going to address something as urgent and massive as climate change if we remain bogged down in the same old fights.

But common ground with the telecommunications lobby? Common ground with the Bush administration? If the answer is yes, then Obama's "common ground" program turns into yet another smokescreen for corporate politics. Not only is it not divisive or disruptive to oppose moves in that direction, Obama supporters who have any sense of commitment to democratic, bottom-up politics must do so or risk finding themselves unwittingly locked inside a Trojan Horse for corporate power.

Look at issue of today's Times, the same issue your column was in. The lead sentence in the lead story on the front page reads:

The Senate gave final approval on Wednesday to a major expansion of the government's surveillance powers, handing President Bush one more victory in a series of hard-fought clashes with Democrats over national security issues...

The story continues:

Even as his political stature has waned, Mr. Bush has managed to maintain his dominance on national security issues in a Democratic-led Congress. He has beat back efforts to cut troops and financing in Iraq, and he has won important victories on issues like interrogation tactics and military tribunals in the fight against terrorism...


Debate over the surveillance law was the one area where Democrats had held firm in opposition... But in the end Mr. Bush won out, as administration officials helped forge a deal between Republican and Democratic leaders that included almost all the major elements the White House wanted.

The issue put Senator Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, in a particularly precarious spot. He had long opposed giving legal immunity to the phone companies that took part in the N.S.A.'s wiretapping program, even threatening a filibuster during his run for the nomination. But on Wednesday, he ended up voting for [the bill}... Mr. Obama's decision last month to reverse course angered some ardent supporters, who organized an Internet drive to influence his vote... Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton... voted against the bill.

Gail, is that really the sort of common ground you heard Obama talking about in the primaries?

And wasn't there a third piece in the Obama appeal: building consensus, smart politics, and... integrity? Obama was often short on specifics of his policies in the primaries. FISA was one of the few points on which he was crystal clear.

"Senator Obama unequivocally opposes giving retroactive immunity to telecommunications... Senator Obama supports a filibuster of this bill, and strongly urges others to do the same."

Ahem. Forgive me, but caving in to the Bush administration's fear racket and the lobbying power of telecom corporations was not ever, anywhere, part of Obama's shtick.

In your desire to protect Obama, you twist some facts:

Putting some restrictions on the government's ability to wiretap is better than nothing.

You know better than that. The alternative to the legislation was NOT "nothing." The alternative was going back to the wiretapping laws that we have lived under for 30 years.

Gail, you began by saying that people like me wanted to like Obama so much that we ignored what he actually said, but you are on the verge of wanting to like Obama so much that you ignore what he has actually done.


 
 

Comments
103
Pending Comments
0

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:
Page: 1 2 3 Next › Last » (3 pages total)
- FiveFortyOne See Profile I'm a Fan of FiveFortyOne

I don't understand this obsession with Sen. Obama's FISA vote. Per Collins argument, he may have found that there was not enough support to derail the bill, so why not throw Republicans the bone of his vote on FISA. He has a homeless veterans bill right now that he needs their support on. I'm not privy to whatever considerations and negotiations he had to make, so I'm hesitant to judge.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 AM on 07/13/2008
- JayWilliams See Profile I'm a Fan of JayWilliams

As both candidates trash "liberals" and toady up to the "religious majority", the last one with the most spin wins.
I had been a huge Obama fan; I am NOT a fan of Obama anymore. I will not contribute. I will not sport a bumper sticker. I will watch as the two compete---razor close! May the winner be the one with the most votes (not a given, btw).

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:17 AM on 07/12/2008
- tommybones See Profile I'm a Fan of tommybones

Michale,

I'll let others decide who won our debate, suffice to say you utterly failed to answer, or even address the bulk of my arguments.

Hanging your entire case on the concept that international and domestic communications cannot be separated, even if true (though you failed to provide a single fact that proves this point) fails to address the 4th amendment violations that occur AFTER the communications have been "flagged;" when they are REVIEWED (a.k.a. searched) by a GOVERNMENT AGENT, all prior to a "Judge" issuing a "warrant," based on "probable cause," which "particularly describes the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Additionally, you COMPLETELY IGNORED my points about potential abuses. Why? Well, because those threats are very real and you have no answer that could alleviate these concerns.

Next, you contradicted yourself several times by claiming only a "computer" analyzes the communication, when earlier you admitted that once a computer finishes violating your 4th amendment rights, having then "flagged" your communications based on some words (chosen, no doubt by a covert government agent), it makes its way into the hands of a government employee (yes, a human being) who studies (a.k.a. searches) that communication without due process as described above, in conflict with the 4th amendment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:37 AM on 07/12/2008
- anney See Profile I'm a Fan of anney

Bob

Apparently a lot of voters who originally supported Obama are having second thoughts.

A Newsweek poll shows that support for Obama is dropping:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/145737

"In the latest NEWSWEEK Poll, the Illinois senator leads Republican nominee John McCain by just 3 percentage points, 44 percent to 41 percent. The statistical dead heat is a marked change from last month's NEWSWEEK Poll, where Obama led McCain by 15 points, 51 percent to 36 percent."

=====

Also I will add, to what "common ground" constituency did he appeal when he moved to the right and voted for the FISA bill that gives Bush even more latitude free of oversight than he already had? There simply isn't one. He had a strong solid base but abandoned them when he moved to the right. Well, they didn't follow him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:34 AM on 07/12/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

Grrrrrr..

That should read, "doesn't make it INACCURATE"...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 AM on 07/12/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

@itmaybetoolate

}}}}}}}}}}}}
Plenty to lose? We will still vote for him - what choice do we have? We can't vote for mcinsane so we are stuck with obama. He knows that, so its FU progressives.
}}}}}}}}}}}}

Many people who disagree with Obama over this are going to vote McCain..

Granted, they might have already intended to do so anyways and this is just an excuse, but you see the point.

Obama's election is by no means a certainty.. If you must piss off your supporters, you really DON'T want to piss off your base. And, if you MUST piss off your base, the absolute WORST thing you can do is piss off your HYSTERICAL base.

Obama has managed to do that.

But he did it by taking a stand on principle and for the good of the country and I respect the hell out of him for that.

It remains to be seen whether or not this will cost him the election.

Michale......

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:11 AM on 07/12/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99

I doubt if people who are upset with Obama over FISA will vote Mccain . There will be those that vote
lesser of two evils, YET AGAIN , those that just don't vote at all because the two candidates offer very lttle differences in the things that matter to them, and those who vote third party.

McCain voted for FISA too, so really ther's no draw there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:11 AM on 07/14/2008
- itmaybetoolate See Profile I'm a Fan of itmaybetoolate

"Many people who disagree with Obama over this are going to vote McCain.." Got any data to support this?

We may be disappointed in Obama's capitulation but why in god's name would we vote for that dangerous doddering old fool? Psychologically speaking, folks who voted for Obama in the primary are already predisposed to vote for him. It would create cognitive dissonance for them to vote against him in the general election.

Your standing on principle is my capitulation, especially after he said he would not vote for such a bill, and because there was no need to rush into this bill. The original FISA bill would have continued to be in effect until a reasonable bill was passed (perhaps after bush has finally left the WH.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:19 PM on 07/13/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

@JNail

Well said...

Although one minor correction..

}}}}}}
This vote simply protects the Telecoms from criminal - NOT civil prosecution...just like OJ - he beat the criminal rap and got nailed in the civil suit....
}}}}}}

HR6304 protects the TelComs (and, by default, this country) from CIVIL liability. They could still be prosecuted criminally. In that regard, it's the opposite of OJ..

As a side note, one of the most stupidest and most moronic examples of our jurisprudence system is that someone can be found criminally not guilty, yet civilly "guilty"..

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:59 AM on 07/12/2008
- bgregs See Profile I'm a Fan of bgregs

However, we ALL know that the bush justice department will NOT be prosecuting the telecoms, AND that bush WILL be criminally pardoning them before he leaves office!!! Therefore to eliminate the CIVIL suits (which we only want because they give us the chance to see JUST HOW Unconstitutional this program has been!!!) is wrong, though not illegal!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:11 PM on 07/12/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

@readerK

}}}}}
Michale: I have one main problem with Obama's furious "revisions" of certainties he articulated during the primaries.
}}}}}

I don't really have a problem with it, as it is easily explained..

My guess (and it's JUST a guess) is that once Obama because the de facto nominee he was made privvy to intel that showed his previous stance on FISA was incorrect. So, he adjusted his position to take into account the new information he had just received..

To me, that's the mark of a great leader. There is something to be said for "staying the course" (not much, though) but that soon becomes more stubborn intransigence than anything else. One has to adapt to changing situations.

I think that is simply what Senator Obama did.

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 AM on 07/12/2008
- readerK See Profile I'm a Fan of readerK

There's one main problem with Obama's furious "revisions" of certainties he articulated during the primaries. From last September until the South Carolina primary, Obama and Edwards mercilessly accused Hillary of saying during the primaries what she would say in the general election, if she were the nominee.

In other words, Obama and Edwards took umbrage that a candidate was showing primary voters exactly what she would show the general election voters. And so we swooned for the one who claimed to be against "playing the old political games," like playing to your base in the primaries, and then moving to the center for the general elections.

Barack is, without doubt, "playing the old political games," like playing to your base in the primaries, and then moving to the center for the general elections.
As someone has posted, Obama has slickly given us the old bait-and-switch treatment. This, we can believe in! readerK.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:09 PM on 07/11/2008
- tommybones See Profile I'm a Fan of tommybones

Notice how Michale, after getting his butt handed to him on the previous thread in a debate (that he finally gave in to after days of avoiding it) has reverted back to his usual M.O. of ignoring points that eviscerate his talking points. Good stuff...

For those who missed it, take a look at the thrashing I gave him here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/martin-bosworth/fisa-fight-attack-of-the_b_111699.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:24 PM on 07/11/2008
- buckygreen See Profile I'm a Fan of buckygreen

michale has not responded to one single point that eviscerates its talking points since it reared its ugly redundant head. The telecom/repug playbook.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 AM on 07/12/2008
- qwr See Profile I'm a Fan of qwr

No thanks. You are full of self importance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:13 AM on 07/12/2008
- tommybones See Profile I'm a Fan of tommybones

Yeah... my overzealous post could certainly be viewed that way. Agreed.

You just don't know how excited I was to finally get Michale to have a real debate! It was a miracle!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:36 AM on 07/12/2008
- JNail See Profile I'm a Fan of JNail

Barack could have skipped the vote like McCain has on every issue since April and not have had to put his name down, but he did not....that is courage and not exactly political pandering.

This vote simply protects the Telecoms from criminal - NOT civil prosecution...just like OJ - he beat the criminal rap and got nailed in the civil suit....

Focus on the big picture here...winning the election...we will never agree on everything....leaders have to make decisions...the easy one here would have been to vote against it....his vote was not needed to pass it and even beat a filibuster...

The process that this replaces was a total disaster and hurt our security...this may not ne perfect BUT we have not had any more attacks thanks in part to the intel that the wiretapping of foreign traffic passing thru the US has provided.

Change is hard and the real world even harder to apply principal and reality to...

A reformed Republican for Obama...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 PM on 07/11/2008
- onemorevoice See Profile I'm a Fan of onemorevoice

Good job Bob. You really rock. Keep on making an issue out of FISA. See how long you can drag it out. Lets see how much damage we can do to Obama before Nov!

Woooooo!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 07/11/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

And I get accused of slander for saying people are ANTI-Obama....

Go figger.....

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:28 PM on 07/11/2008
- bgregs See Profile I'm a Fan of bgregs

I sadly must agree with you. The fact of the matter is that we don't want President McBush, we just want Obama to understand our displeasure with him WITHOUT costing him the election!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:13 PM on 07/12/2008
- readerK See Profile I'm a Fan of readerK

Michale: I have one main problem with Obama's furious "revisions" of certainties he articulated during the primaries. From last September until the South Carolina primary, Obama and Edwards mercilessly accused Hillary of saying during the primaries what she would say in the general election, if she were the nominee.

In other words, Obama and Edwards took umbrage that a candidate was showing primary voters exactly what she would show the general election voters. And so we swooned for the one who claimed to be against "playing the old political games," like playing to your base in the primaries, and then moving to the center for the general elections.

Michale, Barack is, without doubt, "playing the old political games," like playing to your base in the primaries, and then moving to the center for the general elections.
As someone has posted, Obama has slickly given us the old bait-and-switch treatment. This, we can believe in! readerK.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:49 PM on 07/11/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99

His compromises have not been compromises because truth be told, progressives got NOTHING .

No Universal healthcare, no end to govn'mt surveillence, no end to NAFTA, no end to billions to telecoms, no end to billions to Isreal , no end to government financed religious outreach, no end to NCLB, no end to billions to agribusiness, no end to vouchers , a likely change in reproductive rights and reiteration of a stronger death penalty. Withdrawl from Iraq will require further "assessment". In light of his about face on FISA, don't hold your breath..

Compromise suggests that both sides get something. All we've got is a historical "first" ( Condi Rice could have provided us with two historical"firsts" & essentially the same platform) and a small dried up puddle of hope on the floor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:14 PM on 07/11/2008
- scooperss See Profile I'm a Fan of scooperss

The day of the FISA vote I happened to hear an obama campaign ad on television. I'm sure most if not all of you have heard it .
He talked about being raised by a single mother and his grandparents. He talked of how there had been tough times when he was growing up. He talked of how his mother/grands had taught him values, integrity, and ACCOUNTABILITY.
I found it so ironic that I was listening to him talk about accountability while he was voting AGAINST it.

Yes he's indeed a politician and I want no part of voting for him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:57 PM on 07/11/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

So, you'll be happy with a McCain presidency??

Consider this..

It took more political courage to vote FOR HR6304 than it took to vote against it.

Those Democrats who voted against HR 6304 were simply pandering to the hysterical Left..

Senator Obama and the rest of the Democrats who voted FOR HR6304 demonstrated that true leadership is doing what is right. Not doing what is popular...

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:08 PM on 07/11/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99

Oh and a few extra thousand in their pocket didn't hurt their "for FISA" votes either.

Tho' in the case of Obama , it was 10 million from the electronics and communications industry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:01 PM on 07/11/2008
- scooperss See Profile I'm a Fan of scooperss

Oh I don't think it was political courage. More like pandering.
He's as good as mccain.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:08 PM on 07/11/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99

If we must vote Repug , why not vote for one who runs as such ,instead of a Dem poseur..

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:15 PM on 07/11/2008
- Sheridan1 See Profile I'm a Fan of Sheridan1

It has been said that we "liberals" have projected onto Obama what we want him to be. I agree with this school of thought having watched closely since he first spoke in 2004. He is a pragmatist and always has been. He has NOT been inconsistent on anything excpet public fundining which, we all know, was the right thing to do.
Word of the day:
prag·mat·ic (prg-mtk)
adj.
1. Dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences; practical.
2. Philosophy Of or relating to pragmatism.
3. Relating to or being the study of cause and effect in historical or political events with emphasis on the practical lessons to be learned from them.

Obama is doing what he needs to do, and with the help of folks like Phil Gramm and Jesse Jackson, I believe he will get it done. I also have faith that we will be well served by an Obama Presidency. SO people on the left - please let the right do their criticism of Obama. We will be FINE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 07/11/2008
- research See Profile I'm a Fan of research

No constitutional Professor could possible vote for the 67 days of warrantless internet and wire taps in the Spy-On-America-FISA act.

I can only conclude that BushCo has dirt on Obama and half the dems. I will vote for Obama if there is no choice. I can HOPE that he is playing along to win, and will really be a change from the BushCo death spiral.

But Obama played us, using the BushCo "immunity" distraction to hide the 67 days of spying allowed even if the court says it was illegal.

Kucinich, Fiengold, Sheehan, the other Real democrats will get my money. Obama will only get my vote.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:17 PM on 07/11/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99

If he walks like a Repug, talks like a repug and takes Hagel on - won't you be voting for a repug?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:19 PM on 07/11/2008
- Michale32086 See Profile I'm a Fan of Michale32086

Sorry... I couldn't get past all the childish and immature name-calling to determine if you had a point or not.

Michale.....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:36 PM on 07/11/2008