Sam Stein

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Sam Stein

The Huffington Post

Clinton's Push For Popular Vote Win May Not Persuade Superdelegates

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April 2, 2008 08:27 AM


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About Sam Stein

Sam Stein is a Political Reporter at the Huffington Post, based in Washington, D.C. Previously he has worked for Newsweek magazine, the New York Daily News and the investigative journalism group Center for Public Integrity. He has a masters from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism and is a graduate of Dartmouth College. Sam can be reached at stein@huffingtonpost.com.

In recent days, aides to Sen. Hillary Clinton have increasingly pressed the idea that the popular vote in the Democratic primary should be a guide for superdelegates deciding which candidate to support.

On Tuesday, for example, Clinton's chief delegate counter Harold Ickes told Talking Points Memo, "I think being ahead in the popular vote is an important factor. I don't think it's dispositive...if at the end of the process she's running very slightly behind in the delegates overall, the popular vote will be important. I don't think it's absolutely critical."

But how much sway will the popular vote tally truly hold should Clinton (despite the long odds) actually prevail by that measure?

Interviews with a handful of superdelegates from various regions of the country suggest nearly none.

To begin with, these Democratic officials caution that the chances of Clinton actually overcoming Sen. Barack Obama's popular vote lead are exceedingly small. According to Real Clear Politics, Obama currently bests Clinton by a projected 820,000 total votes. If one includes the results of Florida, which, at this point, is not in the technical sense counted, that spread is reduced to 420,000. Michigan, where Obama's name was not on the ballot, is even more unlikely to be considered by its current tally.

Should Michigan and Florida not revote, a scenario that appears highly likely, Clinton would have to win by unexpectedly (perhaps jaw dropping-ly) large margins in the remaining ten states in order to erase that gap.

Even if she did, however, it would not necessarily portend success. The superdelegates interviewed by The Huffington Post all suggested that the popular vote would be a small measure by which they would consider the Democratic nominee.

"I believe the Clinton campaign will make a dramatic appeal for the undeclared super delegates using a variety of specious arguments," said Donna Brazile, Al Gore's former campaign manager, "but what matters most is party unity and discipline...Honestly, it's a matter of conscience and judgment because there are no rules to guide our thinking."

Much more pertinent to a candidate's resume, as Brazille and others noted, would be the ability of the candidate to "make a good president, but also beat [Sen. John] McCain." And on this count, Clinton may in fact have a stronger case to make. As pointed out by more than one superdelegate, Clinton has triumphed in many of the traditional swing states on the electoral map, a potentially persuasive fact for those trying to map out a path to November success.

"What if you have it down to 100 delegates?" Nathan Smith, superdelegate and Kentucky Democratic Party vice chairman, asked. "Does the popular vote then have an effect? Sure it does. But I look at it in terms of states. Who is winning the states we need this fall. That has the most effect on me... Who is going to make the case to me that they are going to be the strongest candidate this fall? I want to see the grid. I want to see what states you can carry."

Another uncommitted superdelegate from the northwest who asked not to be identified iterated much the same argument.

"The popular vote, if you are talking nationwide, in my mind is maybe a factor," he said. "But none of these are black and white. I'm developing a formula where I give weight to certain pieces of the pie. I would give greater weight to the outcome of my state's primary then the national vote. After that electability plays into it.... Between the primary and convention floor something happens where it appears he can't be elected that would change my vote."

The popular vote tally in the Democratic primary has no official bearing on determining who should be the party's White House nominee. But recently, as the prospects of overtaking Obama's pledged delegate lead have become increasingly bleak, the Clinton campaign has looked to the popular vote as a symbolic tool for persuading superdelegate support. The argument is that, in a true Democratic forum, the will of all voters should matter more than a select group determined by caucuses and proportional representation.

"Let's assume that Sen. Clinton goes ahead in the popular vote count," Clinton surrogate and Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell said in a March 13 conference call with reporters. He then asked, "Which is more democratic" -- the delegates or the votes?

But for all the Jeffersonian sensibilities to the argument, the truth, some superdelegates say, is that choosing a nominee by this metric would cause as much harm as goodwill. Indeed, judging a candidate by the national popular vote could put many superdelegates at odds with the wishes of voters in their home districts. And while many officials have already done just that -- and others do not have to worry about an electoral backlash -- still more have to consider their political security when making their nominee choice.

"What do you expect us to tell people that the metric we offered -- pledged delegates -- no longer applies," said an uncommitted superdelegate. "If it had been the popular vote from the beginning, Chris Dodd would have moved his family to Los Angeles and not Des Moines. Everyone said it was a race for delegates. We spent two years putting together plans that were based on delegates... Lets say it's the Red Sox and Yankees fighting for the division. Are you going to decide it based on games won? Or, towards the end, will it change to overall score because that, in some ways, tells you who is the better team? No, you are going to go by the record because that's the way it is ultimately judged."


 
 

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- research See Profile I'm a Fan of research

The entire Primary process if corrupt. Being spread out over months and allowing anyone to cross party lines to votes allows infinite gaming of the system, which the rethugs have used this time to push Hillary, whom they think they can beat.

The only way to overcome these problems is with a single date primary vote country wide.

Have all the debates with all the candidates on the ballot before the primary. then rethugs won't dare waste their vote on a dem, since no McCain front runner will be gevident as now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:10 PM on 04/04/2008
- UrsaMajority See Profile I'm a Fan of UrsaMajority

Forgive me if I repeat what others say, but it is so irresponsible to even think of writing an article like this without mentioning the most important point. What is this silliness about who's leading in "the popular vote"? Some states -- which, coincidentally enough largely went for Obama -- had only caucuses and so their voters' choices aren't reflected commensurately in the popular vote. For example, Washington has a larger population than Tennessee and has more delegates -- 97 vs. 85 -- and presumably thus should carry more weight in any mythical "popular vote" contest. And, Obama had three times the margin of victory (68-31 vs. 54-41) than Clinton had in Tennessee. But, because Washington chose to operate by caucus and Tennessee by primary, her 82,000 vote margin in such a "contest" carries seven times the weight of his 11,600 vote margin in Washington. This makes absolutely no sense, without even getting into the issue of counting the Florida and Michigan "votes".

The raw numbers:
Tennessee 85 total delegates
Clinton 332,599 = 54%
Obama 250,750 = 41%

Washington 97 total delegates
Obama 21,629 = 68%
Clinton 9,992 = 31%

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:47 AM on 04/03/2008
- klondiker See Profile I'm a Fan of klondiker

"What is this silliness about who's leading in "the popular vote"?"

I won't respond to that, but I'll let you think about that for a second.

As for your Tennessee and Washington comparison...

Why are you comparing percentage margins? Having "three times the margin" of victory looks very impressive, until you find out that in actual votes the difference is only 11,000. In contrast, the 54 - 41 margin doesn't look as impressive as 68 - 31, until you realize that that 13% actually represents about 7 times more votes (82,000 vs. 11,600).

And, it's interesting that you would use Washington as your example.

Washington also held a primary on February 19th. And, the results were:

Obama 354,112 = 51%
Clinton 315, 744 = 46%

That just goes to show how UNDEMOCRATIC caucuses are. They do no reflect the will of the voters at all. The 68 - 31 win at the caucus is not representative of the will of Washington voters in any way. But somehow, the will of the 30,000 who voted in the caucus in more important than the nearly 700,000 who voted in the primary. Does this seem fair and democratic??

It is too absurd to say that one vote will be one vote. And then we'll add up all the votes and see who's ahead?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:53 AM on 04/03/2008
- Toerag See Profile I'm a Fan of Toerag

"...in actual votes the difference is only 11,000. "

That's the district vote, not popular "actual" vote. Many more people voted in the WA caucus than in the Tennessee primary.

You need to learn how the caucuses work. Each caucus held (one at each polling place), gets a vote. Each caucus has a lot of people present. They vote on a candidate. The candidate with the most votes gets the vote from that caucus. Each of these votes are tallied for the overall numbers. There were 30,000 or so caucus votes which is probably close to (I'm estimating) 1,000,000 individuals voting.

Next time, before going on a tirade, learn how these things actually work.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 PM on 04/03/2008
- Maxzx See Profile I'm a Fan of Maxzx

Wow! I wonder if others trying to figure out these numbers get dizzy with the detail? However something that stands out from your blog klondiker is that having a different result in the primary than the caucus simply shows that two different voting procedures deliver two different results.

To understand which is more or less democratic than the other you would surely have to use a measure other than the final vote tally.

Max

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:10 PM on 04/03/2008
- Heidfeld See Profile I'm a Fan of Heidfeld

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU Klondiker!

More people NEED to be looking at the Washington state situation. The disparity between the caucus and primary risults (and the implications for the famous pledged delegates) is alarming to say the least!

He is netting a huge gain in pledged delegates (which everyone is saying are most important) when it DOES NOT reflect the will of the voters. Texas is yet another example.

The superdelegates need to look at this... and I think they will. Without the quirky caucuses, this race would be a dead tie, not a virtual tie... if not a lead for Clinton.

I hardly expect the closed minded Obama supporters to realize this though. His followers aren't stupid, they just refuse to be fair anymore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 04/03/2008
- mesuki See Profile I'm a Fan of mesuki

I don't care how she wins...She will not get my vote period, end of story! I despise this woman!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 AM on 04/03/2008
- GrainOSand See Profile I'm a Fan of GrainOSand

If Hillary wins the popular vote she wins. The problem for me would not be that she won it would be how.

The story of bad products from China:

Inferior products are showing up on the shelves of American grocery stores. They are making people sick after consumption. Investigative analysis has uncovered flaws in the manufacturing process that lead to a tainted final product. A recall has been ordered.

..And so it goes for a president. The only problem, a recall would take four years barring impeachment.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 PM on 04/02/2008
- minordomo See Profile I'm a Fan of minordomo

"If Hillary wins the popular vote she wins. The problem for me would not be that she won it would be how."

Correction:

If Hillary wins the most delegates, she wins.

There simply is no way to measure the "popular vote" in any reliable way at this time, nor is it necessary to completely overhaul the rules just to accommodate the runner-up. The existing process is quite capable of yielding a winner.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:20 AM on 04/03/2008
- GrainOSand See Profile I'm a Fan of GrainOSand

I get what you are saying. I framed it the way I did so I could make the argument concerning the methods and tactics of desperation and how if she won that would leave us with a defective presidential product.

Thanks for illuminating my point even further. I appreciate your voice.

Love, peace and harmony

--these may never be the national reality but I still think about it. I guess I am utopian in this.

--and I would not have it any other way.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:55 AM on 04/03/2008
- fishsandwichesr2good See Profile I'm a Fan of fishsandwichesr2good

The bottom line is that it comes down to the superdelegates and, if they are smart, they'll base their decision on who can win in November. Smokin' Jobama fans don't want to admit that, but it's really what matters.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 PM on 04/02/2008
- LarBear See Profile I'm a Fan of LarBear

Apparently, FAR More people who want Barack are anti Hillary, than Pro Barack... I make this observation as one who (A) has been posting on Huff Post (B) Someone who is pro Hillary for my choice... (Not hiding any Bias)
Barack Obama: "I believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit."
Clearly, a Majority of pro Barack people do NOT believe that... That Barack has NOT spoken out against Huff Post anti Hillary Bloggers and those who comment, makes for doubt Barack is sincere..
Is one an actual Barack supporter, when they do comments trashing the Clinton's? That being actually, and behaviorally, opposing what Barack claims to stand for... Do Barack supporters mostly brag of his accomplishments in Positive ways and dialog?
Barack stands on his Pedestal of Positive Campaigning... Others, including his Campaign people, do accusations of Racism, personal attacks, Clinton hating, for him... Barack never owns the Negative Campaign, he runs... He does NOT act response able for correcting Negative anti Clinton hating, bashing and trashing... He simply does lip service...
Clearly, getting elected is more important than Uniting, Healing and the Positive Health of the Democratic Party... Allowing Hillary to be blamed for knee capping, kitchen sink tactics and exclusive, Negativity blaming, in this Campaign, speaks Loudly to Barack's Character, dishonesty and lack of Integrity... You won't win my Vote this way...
Better a Fighter, than another slick Politician...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 04/02/2008
- Fabienne See Profile I'm a Fan of Fabienne

Has Senator Clinton spoken out against the anti-Obama posters on this site and others? Don't the candidates have better things to do than send their workers to spend time on these silly blogs which contain the same comments over and over again?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:48 PM on 04/03/2008
- nomobull See Profile I'm a Fan of nomobull

first you assume he spends time a lot of time listening to these so called bashers . and what about her response and responsiability (your word) in her handling of obama bashing so are you biased or holding both to the same standard.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:34 AM on 04/03/2008
- GrainOSand See Profile I'm a Fan of GrainOSand

Let's look at it from a standpoint of a disease breakout in two separate hospitals. Why would a physician from either hospital seek to go cure patients at the other hospital when disease is running rampant where they are if not to shift focus from that fact?

Anti-Hillary, I cannot say that I am.

Anti Hillary approach "I am guilty as charged.

I make every effort not to defame her. I try to leave no stone unturned in indicting her methods. If that is wrong then the alternative of turning a blind eye to lies, innuendo, spin, and otherwise wicked behavior is unacceptable to me.

I would do the same if I witnessed slime coming from the Obama camp. My allegiances are not to a candidate but an idea of fairness and true, morally-based solutions for problems facing this country.

Vote Truth/Justice 08.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:25 PM on 04/02/2008
- buzz See Profile I'm a Fan of buzz

Well said Lar Bear. Obama can't disclaim what he inspires.
The truth is he is inspired BY a vicious hater (Wright) and he inspires hate (as you note so well.)
So, what we have is a con game. This fits perfectly with a pretender. Obama is a man who imitiates (literally) MLK (sometimes), and Malcolm X (other times). In other words, he is a man who borrows the guise of others to conceal his own (hateful) views (views his wife was repeatedly revealing, before she was sidelined.)
The false promises of unity are particulary troubling. How can this country be led by a person who expressly subscribes to a value system that evaluates ALL action by its effect on the black people of this country (12%)?
Democrats can't take Obama on with respect to his racist beliefs because they are afraid to be labeled racists themselves. But, have no doubt, those views will be exposed in the general.
And then, whether Obama wins or loses, it will make no difference.
Unity? Fairness?
What we will see is the hate that he inspires come to full fruition. Imagine Obama's followers on this website elevated to power. Do they express fair-minded, reasoned, and most importantly, unifying points of view?
That is why I oppose Obama.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 PM on 04/02/2008
- Dalpine See Profile I'm a Fan of Dalpine

Like slick Willy? Or like the guy who will never quit fighting the Iraq war?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:23 PM on 04/02/2008
- YeWeCanForFree See Profile I'm a Fan of YeWeCanForFree

Democratic Party has lost 7 out 10 presidential elections in last 40 years.

These are the people who lost elections to Republicans:

Humphrey (1968), McGovern (1972), Carter (1980), Mondale (1984), Dukakis (1988), Gore (2000) and Kerry (2004).

Why do you think these people lost elections and Obama will win? American people have never elected liberal candidates in modern American history. Obama is more liberal than six of the above candidates, except Carter. Thanks to Obama mentor, Senator Kennedy who gave away whole election in 1980 to some Republican actor.

Can you even name two democratic candidates who won presidential elections over last 40 years?

If you have said: Carter in 1976 and Clinton in 1992-1996. Yes, you are correct!

If you are true democrat voter who wants to win in November, stay with Clinton.
Clinton wins!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 PM on 04/02/2008
- Fabienne See Profile I'm a Fan of Fabienne

Why do I think Obama will win? Because he is the most inspirational candidate of my lifetime. In 40 years of voting, I've never seen this kind of enthusiasm. This is what true leadership means. Nothing can be done without the people acting and for the first time, I've seen a presidential candidate actually inspiring people to believe they can take actions that will change the future of their country. And don't tell me he's an "empty suit". If you listen to what he says, he puts forth as specific proposals as possible without actually being in office, from his ideas about foreign policy to his ideas about helping everyone get a college education, from his ideas about creating jobs through alternative energy production and rebuilding the infrastructure to removing all combat troops from Iraq, not having any permanent bases there, but increasing the humanitarian aid to the country.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:54 PM on 04/03/2008
- Crozier See Profile I'm a Fan of Crozier

continued

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 AM on 04/03/2008
- LeoMarvin See Profile I'm a Fan of LeoMarvin

Are we supposed to take from this argument Clinton has a better chance of winning than Obama does because her husband did it? Seriously?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:41 PM on 04/02/2008
- presto See Profile I'm a Fan of presto

I think the poster's point is that Obama is a liberal and liberals have not been too successful in winning the presidency. Clinton and Carter were not liberals.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:10 AM on 04/03/2008
- ItsAlessandro See Profile I'm a Fan of ItsAlessandro

"Are we supposed to take from this argument Clinton has a better chance of winning than Obama does because her husband did it? Seriously?...."

Um, yes.

The problem with what Obama stated is that his actions have already corrupted his statement about letting the voters decide. The Obama camp insisted on a knockout punch way too early. What was worse was they based their arrogance on caucus statesl

Rather than be humbled by their success in the caucus states, Obama's camp overplayed the importance of the caucus states and have actually stolen some super delegates who got caught up in their caucus hype trap. Edwards noted the same trait in Obama when he left the race, Obama seemed very pleased and not too humble or empathetic of Edwards.

I call it youthful exuberance. Sort of like wanting to meet with every dictator on the planet in short order after being elected.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:27 AM on 04/03/2008
- peascott See Profile I'm a Fan of peascott

If you are true democrat voter who wants to win in November, stay with Clinton.
Clinton wins!



LOL
She might steal or buy the nomination but she will NEVER win!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:29 PM on 04/02/2008
- Bushgirlsgonewild See Profile I'm a Fan of Bushgirlsgonewild

.

Thank you, professorie.

I didn't know that Vegas had influence in the election of 2008.

Democrats tend to become president when the country needs leadership and course correction the most, the last exception to this being that president during the Civil War.

I'll vote for Clinton over McCain anyway, but Obama has my vote now because he's showing the leadership we've had when America was in need of if to survive.
.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:50 PM on 04/02/2008
- vsign See Profile I'm a Fan of vsign

Obama argued on Hardball that he thinks he is entitled to the nomination because he has "earned" it. I would argue the opposite - he is clearly the affirmative action candidate.

I believe Hillary will have earned this nomination by the convention by showing us how she is the only candidate who can beat McCain. I really think that by the end of August, the polls will show Hillary beating McCain and Obama losing to McCain. I think Hillary will be winning the core Democratic vote.

Obama will play poker with us again - bluffing his way to the finish.

**Obama said he will tear out the bowling alley and install a basketball court in the White House. "That's why I'm running for President. That's what I'll do when I am President. Of the United States of America. We'll all be united playing basketball. That will unite us. To tear down the old - bowling alley. That's why I'm running for President."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 04/02/2008
- Independent_voter See Profile I'm a Fan of Independent_voter

hillary can not win. She is a congenital liar and the more people get to know her, the less they like her,

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/hillary-clinton-fired-from-wat.php

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:38 AM on 04/03/2008
- manualfordemocracy See Profile I'm a Fan of manualfordemocracy

You also only quoted the word "earned" and you added the word "it".

Obama did not say he is entitled to the nomination because he has "earned" it. That is not what he said. What he did say on Hardball tonight was,

and the entire quote was, "if in the end we have the most delegates, and we"ve won the most states, and we have the lead in the popular vote, I think that will have shown the super delegates that we"ve earned it".

Why must you lie and simply make things up?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:08 PM on 04/02/2008
- ItsAlessandro See Profile I'm a Fan of ItsAlessandro

The problem with what Obama stated is that his actions have already corrupted his statement. The Obama camp insistetd on a knockout punch too early. What was worse was they based they based their arrogance on caucus statesl

Rather than be humbled by their success in the caucus states, they overplayed it's importance and have actually stolen some super delegates who got caught up in the hype.
Edwards noted the same trait in Obama when he left the race, Obama seemed very pleased and not too humble.

I call it youthful exuberance. Sort of like wanting to meet with every dictator on the planet in short order.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:16 AM on 04/03/2008
- jcharliemiller See Profile I'm a Fan of jcharliemiller

Forget Vsign. WOE TO THE VANQUISHED.
We (Obama supporters) don't need to continue the vicious cycle of attacking Hillary supporters. We need to start focusing on the Republicans and Dubya"s third term. Let them say whatever they want " our guy will get it in mid-June early July. Let"s start the real fight against the Depression that McCain would bring " by carrying on failed economic policies.