Ms Bonavoglia, whilst reading your article I had an image of you in my mind acting very much like the Devil did at the end of Mel Gibson"s, The Passion of the Christ¦. Not sure what that means.
It"s clear from your article that you reject totally the Catholic Church"s belief on Papal authority, as is your right. But having done that, why do you care how the Church organizes itself? Nobody is compelled to belong to the Catholic Church. As such I would encourage all Catholics to read the "Catechism of the Catholic Church". If they reject what the Church teaches then leave. If they accept what the Church teaches than embrace those teachings and try to live them, with the help of God"s grace, to the fullest.
I guess that"s why you"re so angry Ms Bonavoglia. Like most "Progressives" you can"t tolerate people who have a different view of the world than yours.
Women and the Church -- Catholicism's Original Sin
Talking about the Catholic Church without talking about the place of women is like talking about the history of South Africa while ignoring apartheid. It completely denies the realities of the Catholic Church today, which include:
* The exclusion of women from the ranks of cardinals, bishops, priests and deacons -- an exclusion that contributes to an attitude of condescension toward women and children, which surely influenced the hierarchy's condescending response to decades of complaints about clergy child sexual abuse.
* The ban on women presiding at Mass, celebrating Eucharist, hearing confessions, baptizing, and anointing the dying, even as hundreds of thousands of Catholics worldwide go without priests.
* The prohibition on women at Mass proclaiming the Gospel or preaching a sermon, in direct contradiction to Christ's clear instruction to Mary Magdalene to "go and tell my brothers' that I am risen."
* The obfuscation of the true place of women in Christian history -- such as the deacon Phoebe, the bishop Theodora, the apostle Junia -- by the hierarchy's insisting that when applied to women, "deacon" doesn't mean "deacon," "bishop" doesn't mean "bishop" and "apostle" doesn't mean "apostle."
* The rejection of any language for a female face of God, despite Her existence in the Bible and reminders by esteemed female Catholic theologians like Elizabeth Johnson that "God created humankind in his image...male and female he created them."
* The minimization of the impact of the clergy child sexual abuse scandal on girls, who made up nearly 20% of the victims; were in fact more likely than boys to be sexually abused up to the age of seven; and after the age of puberty, were held accountable themselves for the abuse, or seen as "normal" targets for priest experimentation.
* The perpetuation of the myth of a celibate priesthood, despite estimates that at any one time nearly half of all Catholic priests are involved in some kind of sexual activity, most of it with adults, and worldwide reports of priests sexually abusing and exploiting women. Pregnancies have been met by priests' insisting the women have abortions, or by their abandoning the women and their own children.
* The denial of the relationship between forced childbearing -- as promoted by Church teachings against birth control and abortion -- and poverty for women, children and families in the developing world.
* The belief that "natural law" -- on which the Church bases its opposition to birth control, condoms, emergency contraception, sterilization, infertility treatments, and pregnancy termination -- should apply not just to Catholics, but to everyone. This is a position that the Catholic Church alone among the world's religions can promote from its seat as a Non-Member State Permanent Observer at the United Nations.
* The silencing and excommunication of women who dare to challenge the status quo.
The invisible, indeed maligned, women I interviewed for Good Catholic Girls who are struggling to change the Catholic Church are part of a vibrant global movement of women -- Muslim, Jewish, Christian. They know that we cannot ignore the place of women in the world's major religions and still change women's second-class status in so much of the world.
For Pope Benedict's visit, the question to ponder is this: In the face of the Church's blatant discrimination against women and its consequences, to which Benedict has mightily contributed, what exactly is the basis for the Catholic Church hierarchy's moral authority?
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Why do we still act like the Catholic church is relevant? After all this...really?
To those who say you can't define God--God is the energy of the Universe. God is male, God is female, God is beyond gender. How much clearer (and all-encompassing) can you get?
The answer to your last question would be ... power and hyprocrisy.
I sat next to one of young women who had "starred" in Deliver Us From Evil at a film festival screening of Amy Berg's amazing and disturbing documentary. You could literally feel her vibrate - the pain and scars of what Oliver O'Grady did to her as a child were rolling off her in waves.
Shame on the Pope, the Church, and everyone who was more invested in the Glory of the Catholic Church than the welfare of its children.
Women in the Catholic church read gospels, they give out
communion, they provide counseling on religious and chruch
doctrine. In regards to officiating the mass, no. Men were
predominate in following Christ, women were often benefactors.
Having said that, it's time for married and women clergy,
Catholics use birth control, and there is a shortage
of men becoming Priests. And infallibility to be disbanded.
I have my own church registered under the name "The Universal Church of the Lord Almighty." Nevertheless, I do have suggestions that I believe the Catholic Church should consider:
Regarding the relationship between man and woman, the founder of the Baha'i faith's statement that "Man and Woman are the wings of humanity," says it all. No bird can soar to the highest heights unless its wings are equal in all respects.
As serious is the concept of "infallibility" that automatically engulfs human beings in a spiritual straightjacket and that is in total contradiction to God's greatest gift to humanity, part of Its own omnipotence which is one's "freedom of choice."
In this respect, no one's decision within the Catholic Church's hierarchy should be binding but rather a matter of choice for those affected by such decisions.
Note to all catholics, whether male or female: Which of the words "Papal infallibility" don't you understand? If the Pope says women are inferior, then all catholics must believe it ! Don't complain about it; you are the one who decided to be a catholic. If you don't like this, then you can decide NOT to be a catholic. I decided long ago not to be a catholic, and now I marvel at the gullibility of those who still cling to this medieval institution.
Shouldn't be blaming the Church, you should be blaming yourself for not being a free thinker
Catholics are not required to believe everything the pope says. Infallibility applies when the pope speaks "ex cathedra"...from the chair. When he does this the pope is defining a doctrine regarding faith or morals and it applies to the entire church.
Re your suggestion about leaving: a lot of us do. I left the church years ago because of the the very limited role allowed to women and the deeper issue of the disparity between teachings and the the way they play out in everyday life. However, there is a sense of loss when you leave...and it stays with you. It is too bad the church is so rigid and unable to adapt to modern life. Because of this it has lost a lot of its moral authority and will surely pass into some level of obscurity in the future.
The Christian religion is based on the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. The differences between the Catholics and Protestants is well documented -- ad nauseum. The Catholics definitely have their own spin on interpretation, in contrast to hard core exegetical fundamentalism. Many scholars believe that the Catholics have injected man's thinking into the sanctity of the Scriptures; and therefore corrupted them. Nevertheless, since all of us fall short of the glory of God, we will continue to do a perfect thing imperfectly. Having said that, There is a clear distinction in the Scriptures between men and women. The difference can be clearly and succinctly observed in 1Peter 3: 1,7 -- where it states that a woman should b e submissive to her husband; HOWEVER , it states in in verse seven that a man should treat the woman absolutely, honorably and equally, or his prayers will be hindered. So to abuse a woman and then pray -- is effectively useless. The relationship between man and women is delineated throughout the Scriptures. Ephesians 5:22-23 reiterates the same idea and further entends it: but egos blind the eyes; and egos prevail.
SeaBlood,
Seems like ex-Catholics are the most vocal about
what is wrong. If you disagreed, why didn't you change
things? Those of us who stay are.
I am not a woman, so I am hesitant to offer comment where it concerns the rights of women. I am not Catholic, so I am hesitant to offer comment in that arena as well. I am fairly well read when it involves the rich history of the feminine in religion, and more appropriately, spirituality. The Christian church, and many of it's heirarchial leadership, made concerted efforts along the way to marginalize much that was historically rooted. This included, among many elements, reincarnation and the feminine mystique. Catholicism is not the only denomination that abides by this historic exclusion of women. I am an Episcopalian. The struggle to ordain women began in the mid 1800s, and was not resolved until 1976...a struggle of almost 125 years. Although I would never suggest to give up a righteous struggle, I would think a powerful message would be sent to the Catholic church if all the women with pro-feminine positions would leave and join the Episcopal church. We are known as "Catholic lite" LOL...
The Catholic Church has never had any 'moral authority'. Never. Not once. The morals to which the Vatican would lay claim existed well before their church came into existence. Like all religions, they borrow that which they can use and then embellish it as they wish.
Let's be honest here. There have pedophiles in the church since it's inception. You find the same thing in Islam, and every other religion. They are breeding grounds.
The catholic church. Just another men's club.
*
Wow Trit, did you ever hit the nail on the head. Women were allowed priesthood in the early days of Catholicism (did I spell that correctly??) and male priests were allowed to marry. Good old Popes changed all that to their will. Just as they made poor Mary Magdelene a trollop. So much for women having rights, right down to their religion...
No, just another corporation.
Maybe if the church had to pay taxes . As does every other business, and worker in America they would be more in contact with reality. The destruction of society by feeding the masses so they can have more children is against human nature. Birth control has been a direction the rest of the civilized world has followed. Abortion will be a last resort if birth control isn't an option. The church has not changed much since the early 1700s but, modern times have left it behind. There is no longer a place for child abusers in the hiding place of religion. We have heard too many stories about pervert priests. The ancient religious practices of the last 1000 years have no place in modern times. At least we can have a cartoon of the pope with out starting a war! Cartoons don't bother me beheadings and bombings do.
Bill Maher was right ~~
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/14/bill-mahers-new-rule-abou_n_96538.html
I was raised a catholic - catholic schools, mass every day, the whole enchilada. I became an atheist, married and had children. But you'd better believe - I made sure my daughters understood the egregious position of the religions in general -- and the catholic church in particular - and their crimes against women for hundreds and thousands of years.
The pope doesn't have a chance in hell of getting his filthy paws on my daughter's "souls."
*.
For cryn-out loud Bill Maher is the biggest SEXIST there ever was.
His panels on his show consists of mainly men.
He ridicules Hillary continuosly and elevates Obama as much as possible and that's par for the course on most all the MEDIA. Obama has done nothing special in this country and yet you would think he was the second coming.
So instead of attacking the Catholic Church of Rome and the religion itself -- we might just start HERE in the USA when we have a woman running for President and gets a kick in the butt wherever she turns ---- even women never mind supporting her---are also giving her a kick in the butt for it.
off on that one. Hillary is showing her but to be rightly kicked. Please don't ignore the 'mispeaks' (downright lies) just because she is female. I don't support her because of what she is and represents. That doesn't mean female. It means she is just another politician like Bush and the rest. Please don't vote for a female....vote for the person. Please don't see color...see the person. Please look past the medals....vote for the person.
I am still looking for the right person to vote for.
Go this this great website on quotes about religion by Mark Twain and Albert Einstein:
http://ourgreatestweapon.cf.huffingtonpost.com/Religion.html
last word cut off: -- 'Why is he given so much power?'
Yes to all the above, with the addition of
-- denying the use of condoms to Africans in an effort to prevent AIDS; this ends up with high infection rates among women in Africa (and elsewhere).
-- denying pregnancy protection to women though they may already have too many children to feed --and in face of the world's inability to feed all its people.
-- Protecting Bishops like Bernard Law by removing him to the Vatican (and having him inaugurate the new pope) after being accused in New York of protecting dozens of pedophile priests. Thus does his comment today -- that he is 'ashamed' of finding pedophiles in the Catholic hierarchy -- ring hallow. IGNORING for so long all pedophilia in the Catholic church at the cost of balanced lives and trusting hearts of so many, many sexually abused children.
-- and so much more: behaving like an ordinary cult leader (see Warren Jeffs) who controls his parishioners lives (through 'holy' injunctions and guilt and threat of being shunned by the church) and marriages.
Why are journalists falling all over themselves to report on this visit? Why are public radio stations like NPR allowing hosts and reporters to 'act Catholic' as they report 'the news'? (.e.g. Meeshell Norris, NPR and Cherry Glaser, KCRW.)
This man, who has perpetrated egregious abuses, systemically, on the world is only one leader of a religion in this courntry (and the world). -- Only one religion of many. Why is he GIVEN so much
Why is this visit in the news? Because the Pope is the leader of
a country (very small one) and gets the same treatment as any
head of state. The Vatican has some of the worlds most impressive
art work in the world. If only half were used, it would feed, clothe and
provide healthcare for millions. Everyone has a choice, to follow a
doctrine or not.
It's better than that: Ratzi was in charge of the Vatican's damage control operation for its worldwide child-rape problem.
The church has been bordering on EVIL forever.
Both the subjugation of women and the widespread abuse of children by pedohiles and coverup by enabling superiors are but two effects of a central problem in the Church -- the foundation is a hierarchy with no real way for believers to challenge authority. This is because Catholics are taught that there is an unbroken line that stretches from Jesus to his apostle Peter right down to Benedict. And salvation comes not just through belief in Jesus but rather by living out that belief through participation in the sacraments like baptism, confession, communion, and last rites. The catch is only those who are recognized by the hierarchy beginning with the Pope and funneling down the chain of command to the local bishop -- the priests -- can administer those sacraments. This means that the hierarchy through control of the priesthhood literally holds the key to salvation. The hierarchy justifies this extraordinary control by likening itself to shepherds and the Catholic masses to sheep whose well being is the shepherds' only concern. Even when events like the coverup of child abuse prove conclusively these are just flawed humans with selfish motivations, many Catholics are limited in how they can express their outrage. For most exiting altogether is not a real possibility because the baptism of children and last rites for the dying are seen as vital even for casual mass goers. This has allowed the Church to pretty much blow off the child abuse scandal and continue to deny women any
Ms. Bonogavolia: I have read all of your post for the last 2 years regarding the Catholic Church and I was amazed! Your forthwrightness is refreshing and encouraging.
I stopped going to mass about 6 months ago; it has taken over a year to get to the point were I am no longer "feeling guilty" about missing mass; as a result, I am less angry. My anger with the Church has been longstanding, especially over the treatment of women in general and the lack of real, meaningful opportunties to serve. My disappointment in the Church as been longstanding, but came to the forfront several years ago after viewing a PBS special on the Vatican; it was then, I realized all I am doing is financially supporting the biggest and richest Boy's Club on this planet and they show no respect. I no longer give money directly to the Chuch; instead it goes to groups such as St. Vincent dePaul, the local women's shelter, animal rescue, food for the poor, etc. I also viewed a DVD about 2 years ago, titled, the Magadaline Sisters, it turned out to be about the abuse and mistreatment of Irish women by the nuns - after some research, I found it to be true. I was very sad and very angry. There is little that can be done, but leave and take my well-earned money with me; if more women did that, they would make the needed changes in a great hurry. Leave ladies, leave!
ah...the sisters film.....that would awaken a dead person.....strong, brutal...and TRUE.
Besides, they, the church used to love people to touch trunks of bone to go to heaven...then Martin Luther came along.....
The bad news is that the right wing nut religious ""right"" is just as EVIL and the roman church.
The Sister film
I was brought up by the "good sisters "and it takes you a lifetime to get over the physical and emotional abuse. So over a lifetime I have lost all believe in a "good God ".
Organized religion has about as much creditability as this administration! They both try to control people through fear! I prefer to think for myself rather than allow these 'self righteous' hypocrites have me pay the rent for them to occupy space in my head!
Simple. Might makes right. The Church wants power and it gets to keep it by keeping women down. Just like those who control the other religious organizations. That's not so hard to see is it?
Thank you, Angela. The Gospel of John, the only one to define the Holy Spirit, defines her as a woman. In Matthew & Luke, Jesus specifically describes Himself as Sophia, the Jewish goddess of wisdom. The Gospel of John relies heavily on Sophia to describe Jesus, including the famous opening passages, which are a poem to Sophia. All of the 'I Am' sayings come from Sophia or other goddess self-identifiers. The only anti-feminist books of the New Testament are the Pastoral Epistles -- letters that were long attributed to Paul, but were written by other, unknown authors, well into the 2nd century. The Roman Church as well as many Protestants denominations have seized on a few passages in these obscure epistles by unknown 2nd-century writers to justify denegrating half the world. As Angela points out, women were extremely important in the early Jesus Movement, & especially in the Gentile Jesus Movement assemblies, they served as priests & bishops. Nothing in the canonical Gospels even vaguely suggests that Jesus would not treat women as equals to men -- in fact, in all of the Gospels, the only person who 'teaches Jesus a lesson' is Mark's Syrophoenician woman. The Gospel of Luke is feminist thru & thru, & in Mat, Luk & John, the disciples who stick by Jesus during the crucifixion are all women; the men desert.
The Pope is a learned man & he knows all this. He chooses to ignore it for political reasons, not for religious rectitude.
"THE POPI IS A "LEARNED MAN"???? BULL, HE HAS A CLOSED MIND JUST LIKE MANY CATHOLIC PRIESTS OF A CERTAIN AGE! THE REASON THEY ARE HAVING SUCH A HARD TIME FINDING MEN TO BECOME PRIESTS IS BECAUSE OF THEIR ANTIQUATED VALUES AND PREACHINGS. IN EARLY IRLAND/ENGLAND, THE CHURCH WAS LEAD BY MARRIED MEN...AND THE ROLE WAS PASSED DOWN THROUGHOUT THE FAMILIES. IT WASN'T UNTIL THE CATHOLIC POPE AT THAT TIME INTERFERRED THAT IT ALL CHANGED. I BELIEVE THAT THIS CATHOLIC CHURCH IS A FARCE!! I AM A CHRISTIAN BUT I DO NOT SUFFER "HYPOCRITES" AT ALL.
The Holy Father Benedict XVI is one of the most learned men on earth presently. This is why I mistrust Foxylady's judgment. There are reasons why evil exists. It has existed before, even among churchmen. My feeling is that the evil is there to test your faith. For thirty years now, I want to be a priest and religious and teacher of truth, but I find colossal obstacles on my way. This very day my doctoral research on the meaning of suffering was rejected because the theme was being analyzed from the vantage point of the Holy Spirit. There must be a reson for this also. With all these obstacles placed on my way by the Church institution, I will not criticize the Pope! Angela Buonavoglia is not a person of buona voglia (good will). She is someone seeking answers far above her head! We must leave certain things to God. I also am apalled by abuses of children by priests. But even this has to be left to the Holy Spirit to sort out. As for women being discriminated by God, its sheer nonsense. God made women and He knows their roles and place! This also must be left to the Holy Spirit, for not a single person in the world, Angela, myself, anyone, can outwit Him!
Posted April 14, 2008 | 12:16 PM (EST)