The Debate We Deserve

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Posted April 17, 2008 | 03:18 PM (EST)



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Read more reactions from Huffington Post bloggers to ABC's Pennsylvania Democratic debate

The complaints started as soon as last night's Democratic debate ended. According to the pundits, this was the worst debate of all. The moderators asked questions that primarily focused on scandal and personal attacks. In today's Washington Post, Tom Shales wrote that the debate was "another step downward for network news...." Shales was not alone. MSNBC host Keith Olbermann spent his post-debate broadcast lamenting the quality (or lack thereof) discussion that had just taken place.

Yet these complaints are not exactly fair. They assume the existence of a higher level of politics than we have had for a long time. As frustrating as it might be, the truth is that the quality of our political debate has greatly diminished over the course of the twentieth century. Since the late 1900s, and especially since the 1950s, we have lived in an era where political campaigns revolve around character and personality with an emphasis on scandal and gaffes.

The rise of television since the 1950s and the transformation of the print media has reduced the amount of time that voters have to hear and read what candidates had to say. The time of the "soundbite" shrunk even further with cable television and the rise of celebrity television anchors -- declining from 40 seconds in the late 1960s to under ten seconds by the mid-1980s. The primary process, as it took shape since the reforms of the 1970s, further accelerated this shift by making character and media appearance even more important. Candidates adjusted effectively and have learned to run their campaigns on this basis.

Voters have been guilty as well. The problem is not just the media or the political process. Public interest in politics has steadily declined since the nineteenth century when turnout in presidential elections averaged almost 80 percent and 60 to 80 percent for nonpresidential year elections. Election day was a major public event akin to entertainment. People vote less, their attachment to political institutions has declined, and their distrust in politicians has grown. Americans are more interested in American Idol than American presidents. They're not asking for much substance.

While the nation would undoubtedly benefit from a political process that emphasizes substance and issues, we aren't there now. Thus, there is value during the primaries to debates that center on potential scandals. Why not have debates put candidates through this kind of scrutiny -- whether with Barack Obama's ties to Reverend Jeremiah Wright Jr. or Hillary Clinton's misstatements about Bosnia -- since those are the issues that Republicans will discuss in the fall? We are in an age of Swift Boat attacks. So if Democrats want to win the White House, shouldn't they get to see how candidates handle these kinds of attacks before the general election begins ?

Of course, these kinds of debates provide Republicans with fodder and substance-based campaigns would be much better for the polity. But until we have a better political system and a more attentive electorate, we are not in a position to dismiss the type of debate that we had last night. We got the debate we deserve.

Julian E. Zelizer is a professor of history and public affairs at Princeton University. He is the co-editor of Rightward Bound: Making America Conservative in the 1970s (Harvard University Press). He is currently writing a history of national security politics since World War II that will be published by Basic Books.

Read more reactions from Huffington Post bloggers to ABC's Pennsylvania Democratic debate

 
 

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Yes, the blame must be shared. But the Lion's share must be shouldered by a MSM culture that has abandoned journalism and that no longer performs a vital public service.

"When many organs of the press adopt the same line of conduct, their influence in the long run becomes irresistible; and public opinion, perpetually assailed from the same side, eventually yields to the attack." Alexis de Tocqueville

The MSM has killed journalism, and with it our democracy. The influence it wields (despite our protest) numbs the senses, eliminates thought, obfuscates reality, and produces a blend of political impotence and public idiocy that leaves the corporate elite undisturbed and ever more powerful.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:02 PM on 04/18/2008

The premise of this writer is true: "..the quality of our political debate has greatly diminished..
However, the conclusions of this writer are b**ls**t, and this is why.

To conclude: "there is value during the primaries to debates that center on potential scandals" is to say that the issues are not more important. This is some of the most ridiculous b*lls**t I have read in a long time. To say that indulging in supermarket tabloid journalism has value is totally and patently assinine.
Since when does debate "that centers on potential scandals" result in better healthcare, a better standard of living, better education, and getting out of an elective war.

This writer is saying that because this "discussion" that ABC News stupidly calls a debate took place in the gutter and the mud in no way justifies getting further in the gutter and the mud. This is total crap.

To also say: "until we have a better political system and a more attentive electorate, we are not in a position to dismiss THIS type of debate" is also totally assinie and circular. Is the writer saying that we the citizen don't deserve a better political debate until we have a "better political system"? What arrogant BU**SH*T.

And pray tell, how in the hell are we the citizens going to get a "better political system" unless we insist on a better political dialogue?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:39 PM on 04/18/2008

Remember when The League of Women Voters used to host debates? They always did an admirable job.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:28 PM on 04/18/2008

I disagree. Regardless of what the American people want, expect, or "deserve" from a debate, the media have the power, and the obligation, to educate the public about the issues at stake and the candidates' positions on them. I think you are putting the cart before the horse. You say that these lousy debates are a result of people getting turned off to politics. I think the opposite may be the case. Or at the very least, it works both ways.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 AM on 04/18/2008

The ABC event was more like a Q&A than a debate. Having said that, I will say that one never knows what to expect from a televised "debate." Thus far, we have had some that were more "debate-like" than others. I think that they have all been useful in showing something about the candidates. It is also likely that the supporters of the candidate that fares the worst will rise up and complain about the format, or the moderators, or the questions, or the location of their candidate on the stage, or the number of questions, or the amount of time given their candidate..........In the ABC event, Obama did not look good and he left several openings for further criticism/questions. He will need to further explain who wrote the notes in handwriting that so closely resembles his own, he will have to explain why he denied having done or said something, only to explain that it was his campaign when it seemed likely that he would get pressed about the denial, he will eventually have to explain the reason that he placed Rev. Wright behind the scenes early in his campaign. Because the nomination process has gone the way that it has this year, it is only natural that at this stage the focus is on the candidates personal attributes.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:01 AM on 04/18/2008

Oh for god sake, give me a break.
It is so hypocritical and weak to give the press a pass on this. Our constitutional system is based on men of godwill getting together to comprimise in order to get along. Our founding fathers were a pragmatic lot, and many comprimises were made in order to pass the constitution, Slavery, Big states vs small states, etc.

The Republicans discovered the Wedge Issue in the late 60's and used their "culturally conservative" racist base in the south to dominate national politics for the next 40 years. In their twisted little minds, compromise is evil, as are the godless socialistic democrats. They practice scorched earth politics for 40 years, then complain about the toxic culture in Washington. The press has been more than complicit in this. These are the issues Ross Perot callled Gorilla dUST, thrown up to distract debate. Hillary is despicable. We democrats stand for something.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 AM on 04/18/2008

The Republicans won because they were better organized and didn't fight each other. After years of dirty tricks, the Democrats should have been ready for them, we weren't, we lost.

As far as I can tell, Obama still has not responded to the charge he was indecisive in a top seceret military exercise, He demanded an apology for the use of the word "boy", got it and dropped the issue. It's going to come back and bite him. He responded to the wrong charge and the Republicans are just drooling hoping no one has noticed yet. Again, slow inadequate response, like Kerry.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 AM on 04/18/2008

Actually, Julian, you're dead wrong. You're confusing political coverage with the debates.

Yes coverage has been on a toboggan ride to hell for 50 years now. But the debates used to be run by the League of Woman voters and other such entities until very recently, and they were generally of high quality.

And the MSNBC debate run by Obermann (the yahoo below, notwithstanding) focused on climate change, the economy, the war, the constitution -- ya know, stuff other than lapel pins.

That's what makes this so egregious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 AM on 04/18/2008

Come on. Sure, Obama was clearly flat during that debate - his worst to date, but still adequate. The debate felt more like a funeral than a debate in tone. Why couldn't the audience be allowed to interject some life and passion into it?
The pacing was horrible, the questioning was poor and heavily bias towards silly nonsense issues. Now that doesn't mean Obama shouldn't have answerer the questions better - what"s so hard to simply say "I stayed with the church because of its good fellow patrons extend beyond the pastor"? Or describing the good purpose and mission of the committee he sat on with Ayers. But Clearly Gibbons was more concerned about his own financial investments than the countries.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:21 AM on 04/18/2008

I totally diagree with this post. The fact that thousands of viewers stormed the ABC website and other blogs and voiced their displeasure at the way this debate was handled demonstrates that we did not get the debate we deserved. Echoing Michelle Obama, I fell really proud of Americans for the first time in my adult life. We are maturing and demonstrating our rejection of sensationalized journalism. We want substance. That is what we deserve.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 04/18/2008

Think about the people who compained. Keith Olbermann. And, does his show each night contain a healthy political discourse on policy issues using experts from the various areas?

No, Keith Olbermann has a bunch of journalists and political pundits on every night to discuss tat day's gaffes and the current horse race. If he's not willing to provide better, why should he expect the debates to?

Keith Olbermann, heal thyself...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 AM on 04/18/2008


Why can't we have debates moderated by PBS?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 AM on 04/18/2008

Whats wrong liberals? No one faints when Obama comes on the stage and its a bad night?
You guys are just pissed because someone actually asked him some real questions. Obama is not ready for prime time. Only good thing he has done is to slow Hillary down.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:24 PM on 04/17/2008

Oh and I guess McCain is ready...Man that needs Joe Lieberman to correct him every 4 seconds

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:03 AM on 04/18/2008

Yes, we got the debate we deserved, loaded with the kind of baseless schoolyard gossip, ruthless innuendo and lurid insinuations about Barack Obama which sell papers and generate TV ad revenues, because Americans seem to take great pleasure in watching the game of "kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down" as it was so expertly "played" by Gibson and Stephanopolis.

At one time, the media was both the people's advocate and the people's watchdog; now, the media has degenerated to becoming gossip peddlers and sensationlists if it will put a few more dollars into the corporate coffers.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:09 PM on 04/17/2008

I was a McGovern campaign worker back in the good old days when the media was good. He came to our red state and the crowd was one of the biggest ever for a political speech in that area. I was eagerly waiting to read the paper the next day and listen to the local. There was at least a two page spread on the speech in the paper the next day. As I started reading I was just stunned. That wasn't the event I went to. The reporter was getting it all wrong. What was going on? I was sure the TV news would get it right, they would show actual video. Wrong again (but they did show video).

I just could believe how bad the media had become since the days of JFK! Of course I now realize JFK must have felt the same, he just dealt with the media as it was, not the media as he wished it could be.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:31 AM on 04/18/2008

"Until we have a better political system and a more attentive electorate, we are not in a position to dismiss the type of debate that we had last night" How are we supposed to get a better political system when the people who are supposed to report on and analyze the candidates and their positions give us nonsense like this? You say that people need to demonstrate that they want something better. Have you taken a glimpse at the ABC web site and seen the avalanche of posts decrying their ridiculous debate? What more do the people have to do? Storm ABC by force and burn it to the ground? Hmmm, maybe not such a bad idea. (Just kidding, don't come and get me homeland security) You are part of the problem. An academic apologist for garbage journalism.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:40 PM on 04/17/2008

Zelizer, you declare a philosophy that is necessarily self fulfilling. We are feed stupidity because we are stupid, having been fed stupidity for so long. Since there is no alternative, rather than dig the facts out of alternative media, what we get is the lowest common denominator, all the time.

Network executives are literally deciding for us, that in which we "should" be interested. The hew and cry over the junk that was offered last night should be telling you the opposite of what you declare. Americans are ready, willing and able to "deserve" a higher order of contest coverage and debate moderation.

Witness that Olbermann is now the sixth most influential news anchor, on his erstwhile backwater show on MSNBC. People are going there for a perspective that is not served up in the Madison Avenue homogenized product of the MSM. The message is clear if the moguls will listen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:19 PM on 04/17/2008


You may be a little pessimistic. The folks who take the time to watch the ABC "debate" are politically conscious; I watched for 15 minutes, then turned the TV off;
I believe many did the same. The morning-after calls and write-ins to ABC are a healthy sign.

I really like Olbermann because he says the opposite of what the MSM says; instead of singing the praise of the government, he puts the spotlight on it, playing the role of the loyal opposition party in a parliamentary system; a job that the democartic party in this country has abdicated; once a democrat goes to Washington, it's hard to tell him from a republican; both have similar personal interests.

Folks are jaded about politicians; this time around a fresh face promises to do things differently and maybe even keep his promises. Maybe we should give him a chance. The hour is late and the ship is leaking all over.

Would'nt it be great if he turns out to be "Mr. Smith goes to Washington"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 AM on 04/18/2008

Maybe I would agree with this assessemnt in the past but not with this election. When millions of people tune in to a debate where they focus on the issues it means people are concern about the issues now of course there is something drawing about the fact that its the first woman and AA candidate but I still think people care about the issues and the media havent evolved with the viewers taste. The debates on the other cable network broke records too but they werent this barrage of personal attack questions. I really believe the American people are FED UP with this kind of politics. Thats partly why these attacks from Hilary has impacted her more negatively than it does Obama. People dont want to see this kind of politics anymore things are getting too out of wack in this country its time to really engage so that we can put this country on the right path. Thats why these media folks did a disservice to the people of PA and America. They are out of touch. The American people are ready to take back their governent. The media needs to catch up or they will get heckled and catcalls like they did last night

Carol

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:40 PM on 04/17/2008

So many of the people here in America are ignorant anyway, so this (chuckle) is working out very well for them.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:31 PM on 04/17/2008

What ever happened to debates that were sanctioned by the league of women voters? Broadcaster could choose to air them, or not. That would be much fairer than the network and its corporate owners lack of objectivity.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:10 PM on 04/17/2008

The League of Women Voters is an issue-oriented group - not one that endorses candidates. Maybe they think that people aren't all that interested in the issues anymore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:26 PM on 04/18/2008

Speak for yourself, Julian. Yes, I know what you're saying. I'm just saying I didn't deserve it, and neither did the majority of Americans. We're better than that, but we're being fed propaganda to dumb us down. The media knows we're better than that, and they're afraid of it.

It's NOT what we deserve, and I'm not going to flagellate myself for it, or wallow in miserable self-hate. I'm going to get mad!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:05 PM on 04/17/2008

Yes, it's pretty clear that Americans get it. Thats why Obama's campaign keeps gathering momentum. And in spite of all their contrivance will continue to do so, at a level the MSM can't get their hands on. With last nights sham, their intent has been fully exposed for all to see and still it continues to work to Obama's benefit. We get it, we see that the "establishment" and it's handmaiden the American press will stop at nothing to destroy Barak Obama's candidacy. They simply can not afford to lose control of the processes that have been feeding this corrupt system for over 40 years.

The "elitists" in this shell game are the "corporate media" and the vultures who own them. Thats the heart of the lie that was exposed last night that all good citizens of all persuasions witnessed.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 PM on 04/17/2008

TMAN - you should write your own blog - well said

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:38 PM on 04/17/2008

A couple of things they don't understand:

-- Obama didn't cause this groundswell of change, this groundswell of change produced Obama.

-- Obama is the best thing that could happen to them. He's a genuine uniter and tension diffuser, if they could just see it. Give America eight years of Hillary or McCain, and see what sort of candidate America puts forward then. We've got a candidate with principles who wants us to solve our problems together. Don't look for us to have that kind of generosity of spirit if we have to wait for eight more years.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:06 PM on 04/17/2008

Obama was hand-picked and groomed. Then he was "packaged". There was no grassroots effort to get Obama to run. After his brand was on the shelves, the media convinced you to buy him. If he's a genuine uniter, then the moon is made of green cheese. "Generosity of spirit"? This is a snark, right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:31 PM on 04/18/2008

Professor Zelizer, on one level I agree with you. As an electorate, we aren't well educated (how else could we have reelected George Bush?). But I disagree with the idea that we were once better educated. Voter turn out is no indication of a thoughtful political spirit. When voter turn out was 80-90%, political machines ran the show. Many voters turned out not because of issues but because of the direct services the machines provided. As politicians provided fewer and fewer tangible benefits to voters, voter turn out declined. The reason the Reagan Republicans have done so well in the last 30 years is because they returned to the politics of payment - through tax cuts. The fact is, the majority of us don't have the true "civic virtue" that the founders wrote about (and most of them didn't have civic virtue, either). Representative democracy is a good political system because it makes people feel as if they have some stake in the system; we don't want to overthrow the system that we believe we're a part of. But democracy is not - and never has been - a particularly smart system. So, I think it's a fallacy to argue that we've somehow lost something. We never had it in the first place.

Then again, I'm an elitist. :-D

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 PM on 04/17/2008

you know before this campaign, i never paid much attention. I'd just vote for the Dem on the ticket and be done with it. Because in my mind, it didn't make a difference who was in office - they weren't going to be a benefit to my life. But this time is different, this time i'm paying attention - and what i see is a country that is deathly afraid that the status quo is going to go by the waste side - and I say - Amen

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:40 PM on 04/17/2008

After Obama gave a speech on race and religion speaking to Americans "like adults" our pundits again crawled back to the zombie mode, dwelling on Rev Wright for 45 min? Well, lets assume he had walked out of the church, there were no clips, would there be no anger, resentments based on race and we would live happily ever after?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:49 PM on 04/17/2008

These assertions are true enough in a general way. But under what compulsion did the questioners deemed themselves to be operating to ask inane questions? Forget the audience and the candidates. The proceding begins with, and is driven by the questioners. We're left with the following choices: The questioners (A) patronized the audience by thinking it ignorant; (B) were told by corporate suits to ask questions intended to lure an audience or spark conflict (the underlying motivation being identical to (A) in its prejudgment of the audience's capabilities; (C) are hacks with an agenda; or (D) are simply dim. What we may really be suffering from is a political ethos that has phony politeness at its core. Would it not have been wonderful to have someone from the audience or, better, one of the candidates (with the other nodding vigorous agreement) say, "Would it be possible for you to ask a less buffoonish question? Surely as informed a person as you could craft a thoughtful question that is about a matter of serious public business meriting a serious response.."
Between the public and the politicians stands a mediating press, an institution that could play a robust role in elevating the quality of our politics. A better quality of journalism would give the republic a fighting chance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:45 PM on 04/17/2008


No.

Simply no.

You are wrong.

I didn't get the debate I deserved. I. Me.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:17 PM on 04/17/2008

Spot on!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:38 PM on 04/17/2008

NO

Simply NO.

The problem with this, is it shifts responsibility from the people who execute the debates to the general public at large. That is absolutely unacceptable. You are not passing the buck on this to me.

Sorry, but all of us out here expect one thing from journalists: that you exercise your journalistic profession. It is what you are paid to do. I have my job. If you have problems with one of the pieces of software that I work on, it's not because you got the software you "deserve", it's because I failed at my job. Quid pro quo, mister.

It is NOT the public's responsibility if you make an absolute mockery out of your job. You journalists are the professionals. Act like it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:08 PM on 04/17/2008

What did we do to deserve this? Show up to the polls in record numbers? Vote overwhelmingly for two precedent smashing candidates?

The media has made far more of issues like "bitter-gate" and "Bosnia-gate" than have most voters I know. So how did "we" deserve the substandard debate we got last night? You can't blame viewers for turning out in record numbers. There had been a debate drought for 6 weeks. Viewers may have wanted to hear Hillary and Barack address, Bosnia, Bitter and Jeremiah, but they probably didn't yearn for 50 minutes of it.

On the other hand considering that both candidates have already addressed ad nauseum the small differences in their policy issues, what else is there to talk about at these things?