It's not that often that I feel absolutely infuriated during English class.
But this semester, at my all-girls school, I'm taking an elective entitled "Gender and Sexuality." Last night, our homework was to read about date rape from the point of view of Paglia.
My mother teaches a class on gender discrimination at USC, and today, coincidentally, a group of students presented a project on date rape. These students interviewed other students, and a number of the students interviewed expressed the sentiment that, for example, a young woman getting drunk at a fraternity party and going upstairs with a boy alone at said party is "asking for it." That really, it wasn't date rape if she ended up having sex with that boy. Camille Paglia supports this view, correctly acknowledging that feminists call her opinions "blaming the victim." Paglia calls it common sense.
I am seventeen years old, and this fall I will be starting college. I know that I have to make smart choices, and that the above situation is dangerous and I shouldn't put myself into it. I have common sense. Unfortunately, not all female college students do. But just because a girl makes a stupid decision doesn't mean that she is responsible if that decision leads to her being raped. Look at it this way: If I were to leave my car unlocked by mistake one night, and during the night, something was stolen from my car, would it be my fault? No. It would be the thief's fault. And no matter how drunk a girl is, it is never her fault if she gets raped.
Today, in English class, we discussed our Paglia reading from the night before. In a classroom of fifteen girls, not a single one agreed with Paglia. For forty-five minutes we proclaimed and explained our disagreement with what Paglia had to say, all the while analyzing her rhetorical strategies (this is an AP English class, after all.) After that class, I was surprised to hear about the USC students who agreed with Paglia's arguments.
Attending an all-girls school, are my classmates and I more likely to become feminists -- who, Paglia says, have the issue of date rape all wrong? Maybe. But during a class discussion earlier this year, most of my classmates said that they wouldn't call themselves "feminists." Yet, today, all of us took the "feminist" point of view.
And, how could we not? Young women face plenty of challenges in the world today. Criticism from other women, like Camille Paglia, is not only undue, it is detrimental to our struggle and growth as women, as college students, and sometimes, unfortunately, as date rape victims.
If we as women won't stand up for each other, then who will?
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Should the women who constantly find themselves in the above frat-house situation always be totally blameless? If its rape its rape but if you are consistently going into the tiger's cage and you finally get mauled you had to know that was a possibility.
If an attorney general goes into a court of law and says: "The crime is the crime and therefore can be removed from the context of events because it is the particular crime that it is," the judge would not be amused. All crimes--even rape, even murder--occur within a context of events that are significant to the commission of the crime, even if the guilt of the perpetrator is clear. Guilt, if found, always attaches to the perpetrator. Blame, on the other hand, is apportioned according to circumstance and frequently IS shared by the victim. To wit: the Nigerian e-mail scam. While the scammers are guilty of fraud, no reasonable person would hold the victim blameless. Being victimized will not render immaterial imprudent actions of the victim which were known to the victim to be imprudent at the time.
Sorry,this is not a feminist issue--unless you really mean to advocate that rape is a special class of crime which should afford rape victims a special exemption.
a woman should be able to walk down the street naked and face no greater threat than being ticketed or arrested for public nudity.If a young woman gets drunk at a party or bar and someone takes advantage of that situation in order to have sex with her then yes,she should be held accountable for bad judgement but not the actions of the person who took advantage of her inebriation.The whole He/She Was Asking For It defense is predicated on the notion of Might Equals Right,if you have the power to do something and get away with it then you can and should.By the way,Camille Paglia is just playing Martin Luthor to Gloria Steinem's Pope.
I think you are looking at an ideal, without considering how society is to enforce these standards. Rape is a crime, no question, with a victim and a perpretrator. Blame, moral and legal, belongs to the perpretrator. But consensual sex is not a crime, and, if stories are to believed, quite common among young adults. If there's no crime, there's no victim. Now its also possible that someone may have consented to sex, and later came to regret giving the consent, but that's not rape, there's no crime, and no legal blame to be given either way.
If you want to cry "Rape!" the first thing to consider is how to prove a rape, as opposed to consensual sex, occured. Should I just accept as a fact that any rape accusation is Gospel truth? I think the Duke lacrosse stripper and Tawana Brawlee (among others) shot that theory full of holes.
The girl is responsible for going to the party, the girl is responsible for getting drunk, and the girl is responsible for going up stairs with the boy. The boy is responsible for rape if he has sex with the girl without her permission. Then it is rape; but the girl does need to be held accountable for her actions in the situation. To say she isn't makes you more of a victim not a feminist.
If you take your car to a bad neighborhood, leave it running with the doors open and a wad of money on the front seat, it is somehow not your fault if it gets stolen? You seem to take the view that girls going to frat parties are "a mistake," that girls getting drunk and doing drugs is a "mistake" and going upstairs with a guy KNOWING you are messed up and what is going to happen is a "mistake." Like girls just do stuff because guys tell them to, like girls dont get drunk without being forced by guys.
I think date rapists are the lowest form of human being, but what step in feminism do women actually get to be anything other than victims? Seriously. You want the empowerment, you want the stress, you want the risks, but you also want to fall back on the "I'm a helpless female" crutch?
Camille Paglia wants you to stop being a victim and take responsibility for your own life. What is wrong with that?
Another question: You are at an all-girls school talking about Gender and Sexuality (not Women and Sexuality), how often in the class is the male point of view expressed?
You're premise that only one person is at fault or responsible is wrong.
Think of street accident where a car hits another car and that one hits another and so on. Each driver whose car hit the one in front of it is responsible because s/he failed to maintain a safe distance. That doesn't absolve the person who caused the accident.
Likewise, if you go out and get plastered then you have failed to give yourself the best chance of getting home safely. You have put your trust in the hands of people you may not really know. And if that is your mistake, you still have to own it. Again, that doesn't absolve the person who (hypothetically) violated your trust, but, ultimately, you are responsible for putting yourself into a compromising situation.
You-re on the wrong site.HuffPo,for all the noise it makes,consistently demeans and degrades women.
Currently,there are stories about how sexy Megan Fox is,Julianne Moore's bare nipples and Miley cyrus showing off her underwear posted here.
I'm a middle-aged man and I find this hypocritical as hell,but I don't see any women demanding that Arianna put a stop to it.If this is a site dedicated to progressive values,why the hell is everybody giving her a free pass on this?
Tell that to Nora Ephron...
Isabel, you will take note in reading your essay that you have been sent mixed reviews by the posters. This is why you must hold onto your feminist views. Women still maintain a place in society that holds them accountable for their actions, or inactions, much of the time. Women have become so sexualized at such an early age that even they become desensitized over a period of time. The only image that counts is the image you hold of yourself. Never let anyone define you.
"Women still maintain a place in society that holds them accountable for their actions, or inactions, much of the time."
You are right. Only men should be held accountable of their actions or inactions in a society.
"The only image that counts is the image you hold of yourself."
Don't take advice from anybody. It might be good for you
And don't let anyone talk you out of your anger.
You go, Girl! Well reasoned and thoughtfully expressed!
"If we as women won't stand up for each other, then who will?"
Rock on my young sister. Posts like this make me hopeful for the future.
Isabel, I dont think you really get Paglia*s argument. As the father of another young woman about to go to an all woman*s college, I think about this a lot, and see it from both directions. She, like you, think that she should be able to go where she will and enjoy life to its fullest and not fear anything. I truely wish it was so. I want my daughter to avoid sexual assault. and her chances are better if she follows some simple precautions. These have nothing to do with moral right and wrong, just more safe and less safe.
On the flip side, put yourself in the shoes of a juror in the rape trial of which you are a thevictim. Herećs the evidence - You told your friends you wanted to have a good time, you went to a party at a frat with a reputation, you were drink, dancing and having a wonderful time - then the story gets foggy - he says you had consensual sex, but he was kind of blitzed and doesnt remember too well - you say it was rape but you were three sheets to the wind, and werent clear on the details - the few witnesses around say they didnt see anything out of the ordinary for a frat party. Now, as a juror, I have to work with the beyond a reasonable doubt standard - in his favor - what did you do to make a just virdict easier?
It still doesn't make it the victim's fault. She will never ever be the guilty party.
My dear sweet Isabel--please note the sad truth--men like Fred, who paternalistically think they are doing good, are everywhere.
Because they're men, when they're in the jury box, they will EMPATHIZE WITH THE YOUNG MAN AND NOT YOU. And they will remember the time they were drunk and horny and went too far ("she said no but she didn't really seem to mean it and she was moaning so I know she was liking it"). Don't let this happen to you, Isabel. Don't let this happen to your friends.
Learn from Fred, father, moralist and rape apologist. This is what men are like, sweetie. Many of them, most of them. Be very careful dealing with them; as this thread makes clear, most men are waiting to push their advantage at any moment regardless of what you think--so much so that they all write in and defend each other's rapes.
Just two words of advice:
1. Do yourself the biggest favor ever and DO NOT HAVE SEX WITH ASSHATS. Don't date them, don't return their calls, and for god's sake don't breed with them. If they don't treat you with courtesy and respect, LEAVE THEM. It's not worth it on any level.
2. Hang out with your girlfriends. They will be with you long after that guy--and the next 3 after him--are long gone.
3. A dog is a girl's best friend. A cat is a girl's second best friend.
Actually Maribelle, I agree with your advice - except for #3 - they don't allow pets in the dorms where my daughter is going. The only weakness with point #1 is that sometimes its not apparent who the asshats are until after bad things have happened - how about we ammend it to "don't have sex with anyone (male or female) until after you know them well enough to trust that they won't take advantage of you" ? to be immediately followed by "don't put yourself at the mercy (from drinking too much, lack of transportation, lack of money, etc.) of people you don't know and trust"
I look at in much the same way I look at defensive driving - sure, you may have the right of way, and by God, that other fellow will have quite a ticket to pay, but if the accident puts you in the hospital, you've lost no matter who was right or wrong.
Isabel--Oops--I forgot one, very very important.
DON'T EVER HIT A MAN FIRST UNLESS YOU ARE BEING THREATENED. ONLY if it is self defense. Even a gentle slap can get you your head taken off in retaliation.
Also--
1. It's wrong
2. It can get you prosecuted
3. It can get you killed
Isabel, please don't be offended by my advice, it is sent with much respect. It is encouraging to see strong young women standing up for themselves and I admire your courage. This young generation of women is strong and vocal--it gives me hope.
Isabel--my advice stands, unamended.
To it I would add:
~Don't have sex (or be in a vulnerable situation) with ANYONE you don't know very, very well. Sex on the first date or second date should be a MAJOR NO-NO not for any moralistic reason but because the risks are too high (from disease on through death).
Take care of yourself and your sisters.
If there is one concept I would love for young woman to know, it is:
DON'T SLEEP WITH ASSHATS. Don't sleep with men who don't care about and respect you. DON"T sleep with men who insult you in front of their friends
DON'T EVER SLEEP WITH OR TOLERATE A MAN THAT HITS YOU. NOT EVEN ONCE. Prosecute to the fullest extent of the law and LEAVE and don't look back.
DON'T date men who regularly insult you. Don't listen when they say "oh I'm just kidding". If you're uncomfortable, it's not kidding. If they don't stop when you ask them to, THEY ARE ENJOYING YOUR EMBARASSMENT.
Don't date a man who enjoys your embarassment, your pain, your humiliation.
No good can ever come of it.
Isabel, if you're straight, there are some *wonderful* men out there. Don't settle for anything less than who you fully deserve.
With respect and love,
Maribelle--happily married for 16 years to an awesome man
(PS Don't feel like you have to marry someone just because they asked you. Know your worth, brave sister.)
Wow Maribelle, you are now telling the author to be a sheltered victim because all men are bad and apologists for rape.
You go girl and be that weak sister! Empowerment for everyone, except when reality steps in!
You teach that young woman to be a rabid man hater like you, Mari, that will do her a world of good. Maybe she can just stay in her "All-Girl" world for the rest of her life and never have to deal with any of us vicious men... especially vicious men like her father.
You are doing more harm with your man-hate world view than Fred is with his reality. He tells it like it is- to be safe and not take dumb risks, you tell her to surround herself with animals and women and close the door behind her. You tell her to just not have sex with "asshats" but you've called all men asshats in quite a few threads, so really you are just telling her to stay away from men.
Nice.
Camile Paglia is a provocateur. Paglia says outrageous (and often untrue) things to get attention (which sadly seems to work). It's her schtick. But I think it's cool your young students caught her in her act. Gives me hope for the future.
Well I agree up to the point about it being cool for young students to get caught in her schtick. She is a huckster who was a mediocre English prof and found that she could get the culture warriors to publish her junk and make her a celebrity by attacking feminism. Actually sort of like Ann Coulter with just a bit more intelligence. There are a lot more intelligent things for young people to read.
Rape used to be fairly clear cut and one of my family was a victim of it. I have a problem with so called date rape because it has been so overused to cover everything from a young man getting charged with rape when a drunk woman came into his room where he was sleeping, got on top of him and had sex. She later stated she was raped and he was punished by Brown University for his actions. Another boy was convicted of rape when he did not withdraw quickly enough when his girlfriend told him to. I hardly think that any of those were rapes, and it diminishes REAL rapes. It also leads to the idea that women are so vulnerable that they need to be protected by rules like we had when I was in college.
There are some real legal problems with such a scenario as you posit. One is called entrapment. If she leads him to expect sex, then he has a defense if she charges rape. Two is if he is also drunk, then he can plead diminished capacity. If they are both drunk, then it is impossible to credit one side or the other. Which is why using common sense should be the rule. It is not to diminish any crime, but to use sense in evaluating the circumstances. If the woman is dragged kicking and screaming to the room, then there is no question about the crime. Common sense tells us that.
It is common sense.
If you get drunk and flash a large amount of money in a public place and then walk into a dark area alone, don't be surprised if someone robs you. No, it does not mean it is OK to rob you it just means that what you were doing was dumb and you shouldn't be surprised if you get robbed. Common sense -- something that Libs have in short supply.
Oh for god's sake. So a young woman having a drink with a man is the same as "waving a large amount of money around in public"? So you assume she is a THING, like money, that just being in the room means someone will want to attack her, and if she's had a drink she can't make a good argument about why she couldn't fight him off.
Men would kill anyone who suggested their bodily integrity should legally be limited in this way.
This kind of argument always gets thrown out by some guy who the next minute is saying "don't assume all men are violent". Damned if we do and damned if we don't.
You would rather women take huge personal risks and then be a date rape victim later just so you can tell men that you can do whatever you want?
You are right, I kill every time I'm told that if I drink then I shouldnt and cant legally drive.I kill every time I'm told that if I wander drunkenly into a biker bar I could get attacked and it would be my fault for instigating.
If you havent noticed the fashion industry (or strip clubs, or restaurants), lots of women are making money off their body. They have put a large monetary value on their body and access to it. There are a whole lot of women making money off their bodies with no other talent. So yes, a woman's body has a value like money that she has no problem with when she's getting that value (dinner, diamond necklace, $20 in a g-string) but has a real problem when she isnt. I dont like it, but I dont see any women changing the status quo either.
Thats a sad reality this author can talk about in her Gender and Sexuality class, the underlying commerce behind women in relationships.
But you just go on assuming that all men are violent and we just dont want to let you have your way. Just dont come crying to me when you get in a spot and need a big bad violent man to help you out.
"And, how could we not? Young women face plenty of challenges in the world today. Criticism from other women, like Camille Paglia, is not only undue, it is detrimental to our struggle and growth as women, as college students, and sometimes, unfortunately, as date rape victims."
You are right. Me too I prefer to be criticized by people who think like me and support my point of view.
Problem is that hanging around with people that are always validating your view of existence is certainly more stunting to your growth than hanging around with people that constantly criticize you. The former will give you a warm fuzzy feeling of acceptance while the later will teach you how to think for yourself and build your character.
"If we as women won't stand up for each other, then who will?"
I am a 49-year old white man. I have seen men standing up for women and women's rights more often than that I can recount. Hey, I have even seen women standing up for men and men's rights.
You have to be very careful with this argument. It can be used to justify anything. I could say that the students were right in saying that a drunk woman is "asking for it" because as a man, I have to stand up for them.
Interesting articles about date rapes and date rapes myths can be found on Independent Women's Forum at http://www.iwf.org/campus/.
The really disturbing part of "blame the victim" is the tacit admission that men can't be expected to behave as decent, law abiding human beings. And I don't hear a lot of men protesting that inference.
I think you see a "tacit admission " that hasn't been made. I don't think anyone has said, or implied, that rape is OK, or that young men shouldn't be able to control themselves. Of course rape is bad, as is robbery, murder, and a whole host of other things. Why do you take simple advice about how to avoid becoming a victim to any of these crimes and say that we're trying to excuse criminal behavior? I would love to take every rapist, lock them in jail and throw away the key. But I think even you can agree that it would be best if the rape had never occured in the first place, and there are a few things a woman can do to help reduce her chances of getting victimized. Advice does not constitute "blame the victim".
"Why do you take simple advice about how to avoid becoming a victim to any of these crimes and say that we're trying to excuse criminal behavior?"
Because that is your only focus, that women should change their behavior. OF COURSE women shouldn't get drunk around men they don't know; no one is arguing that. But when you go up and down this thread and keep insisting that the problem will be solved when women change their behavior.
WOMEN WILL STOP BEING RAPED WHEN MEN STOP RAPING THEM. MEN WILL CONTINUE TO SEEK WOMEN OUT AND TRY TO RAPE THEM. AND men like you will excuse their crimes because gee, whiz she was drunk. And you EMPATHIZE with the man and not the woman.
Your "solutions" are not solutions, they are precaustions ALREADY TAKEN BY MILLIONS OF WOMEN EVERYDAY--and STILL THEY ARE RAPED AND KILLED IN STAGGERING NUMBERS. No one is arguing against common sense precautions. But by keeping the argument at that level, you insist on that as the only solution which makes you LIMITED in the least and HIGHLY BIASED in the worst.
And then you concoct some kind trial/rapist fantasy where the victim was kinda drunk and maybe asking for it--which makes you a rape apologist.
Keep your sick fantasies to yourself on a political board, buddy.
And the tacit admission that women cannot think for themselves in a common sense way. That women can put themselves is highly risky settings and expect everything to be ok, and when it isnt, she's a victim.
You want to hear men protest that all men can be upstanding, law abiding citizens? Sure when you convince me that ALL women can be upstanding, law abiding citizens. The ones that cook their babies in the oven and beat their husbands too(yes, it happens.) The gang women and the drug dealers and the murderous women. The ones that are mean to the less fortunate girls and even beat them up.
You want each one of us to take responsibilty for everyone's actions in the world? You go first.
THANK YOU. You'll read it on the next thread, no doubt, the one titled "Women are Damned if they Do and Damned if they Don't".
Paglia is an idiot.
Amen to that. I always considered it the grace of God that I was out of graduate school before her fifteen minutes of fame hit academia.
"If I were to leave my car unlocked by mistake one night, and during the night, something was stolen from my car, would it be my fault?"
Yes, at least partially.
Now having said that, ANY time, in ANY circumstance, that a woman is violated against her will or if she is not sufficiently conscious to understand what is happening, that IS the crime of rape and it doesn't matter what the circumstances leading up to it were, such as getting drunk and going upstairs with a boy at a party, or whatever - doesn't matter. What matters is consent on the part of the female at the point at which a male forces himself on her. I agree with Camille Paglia on a lot of things but if this is an accurate depiction of her opinion on rape, then I guess I disagree with her on that one.
Posted April 23, 2008 | 10:25 AM (EST)