Senator Mark Begich's Town Hall on Health Care: Tales from a Survivor

Alaska Senator and self-described "Moderate Democrat" Mark Begich had a town hall meeting on health care reform while he was back in Anchorage this weekend. He had already conducted two such meetings, but had been getting pressure to have another one. The last two happened earlier in the summer before it was fashionable to show up at such events and yell rude things, and the teabag crew wanted a shot now that they were paying attention.

It would have been easy for the Senator to say no, that he'd already done it. But Begich has never shied away from talking to the opposition. A regular guest on hostile right wing talk radio programs since his days as Anchorage mayor, no one can ever accuse him of cutting himself off from the people. Nor can they accuse him of only talking to "friendly" media, as our notorious ex-governor did, and continues to do via her Facebook account. Palin can just "unfriend" people. Begich pulls them up a chair.

I found an empty seat near the back, and I noted that the turnout for this health care town hall was probably almost quadruple the number of attendees that came to the one in June, and numbered in the hundreds. The previous crowd was more than 90% in support of a public option by a show of hands, which raised the eyebrow of the Senator at the time.

He started off with a Ross Perot-like display of charts and graphs and said that inaction was not an option.

Here is what the Senator feels that any bill must include to have his support:

• No Discrimination for pre-existing conditions


• No Exorbitant out-of-pocket expenses, deductibles or co-pays


• No cost-sharing for preventive care


• No dropping of coverage for the seriously ill


• No gender discrimination


• No annual or lifetime caps on coverage


• Extended coverage for young adults


• Guaranteed insurance reform -- companies must renew of patient pays in full, and cannot refuse renewal because someone becomes sick

That's what it said on the hand-out. It also included some alarming statistics like the fact that every day 20 Alaskans lose their health insurance. That may sound small, but in a state like Alaska with a population of around 600,000, it isn't.

Then he went on to say that he would like it if every American got the same health care coverage that he enjoyed as a member of the Senate.

And finally, it was time to take questions. The first guy right out of the box said, "Well you're a politician so right away we know you're a liar and a thief, and you're a lapdog for the DNC." The first thing we have to deal with is tort reform, he said. So "man up." And then the punchline ... "I'm being courteous ... with all due respect." This was not a good way to start.

It was then that I first noticed that the woman sitting in front of me did not share my sensibilities. The "we know you're a liar" line was met with gleeful laughter, loud applause, and a knowing glance at the man sitting to her left. Teabagger at 12:00. Teabag lady appeared to be in her 50s. She was practically bristling with negativity. Whenever somebody said something critical, she clapped furiously. Whenever someone said something nice, she folded her arms and shook her head back and forth. I took a seminar in college called "Non-Verbal Communication," but you certainly didn't need any background to recognize that Teabag lady had already made up her mind exactly how she felt about things.

The next guy talked about how he didn't learn much in college, but he knew that there were "lies, damn lies, and statistics." So all the Ross Perot stuff at the beginning was smoke and mirrors, according to him. The Senator pointed out that the fact that the cost of family health insurance purchased through an employer had doubled in the state of Alaska from 1997, when it cost $6026, to 2006, when it cost $12,198 was just that: a fact.

"Do you promise to read the bill?" a woman asked in an accusatory tone, followed by enthusiastic applause. The Senator said that in fact, he had read the bill. "You lie!" came from the back of the room. This was going to be a long two hours.

And so the microphone went around the room. The applause seemed split about 50/50 politically. The jeering and rudeness was from one side only.

A libertarian piped up telling us that he didn't want or need health insurance. And if he did need health care, he'd earn the money himself, and save up and pay for his own damn medical bills. But he didn't want any government interference at all. The only time he was ever in a hospital, he said, was when he was born, and that was his mother's fault. I wonder if he'll ever need an ambulance, and if he does, will he have a little sack of gold coins with which to pay the paramedics? He'll have to make sure to remain conscious so he can do that. Otherwise he might have to bleed to death on principle.

Another angry guy said that he wanted the "same health care that you get!" He said it in a finger-in-the-chest kind of way. This was met with wild clapping from the Teabag lady, who, for the first time was actually bouncing up and down in her seat. This was odd, I thought, considering how the Senator had just said that this was exactly the kind of thing that he wanted. Then, it hit me. She wasn't even listening.

The Senator immediately piped up and said that this was exactly what he had just said, and that he agreed 100 percent. He wanted everyone to have the same kind of health care coverage he had. Absolutely. Applause rose from the audience, but not from Teabag lady. Nope. She was right back to folded arms, shaking head and muttering under her breath to the guy next to her. She had gone from gleeful bouncing to angry muttering for the same message. She didn't care at all what the Senator had to say. She was there to be mad. She was not there to listen, or learn, or engage in dialogue. She had no idea what she wanted or why. She was told by Fox News or local wingnut talk show host Eddie Burke or Glenn Beck that the American thing to do was get off the couch and show up mad. She had no interest in using all this passionate energy to actually read the bill, or get educated about the issue, or do any research, or know a good idea when she heard it. All she knew is if it came out of the mouth of an angry guy then she was all for it, and if it came out of the mouth of Senator Begich, then she was totally against it. And it didn't even bother her that it could be the exact same thing.

I realized at this point that I was clenching my jaw so hard it felt like my teeth would crack. I grabbed my Blackberry and tweeted "fantasizing about thwacking teabag lady in the back of the head with my Blackberry."

And then the responses came:
shannynmoore - Easy, Mud....easy.
GottaLaff - Me too, and I'm not even there!
GreatGrey - Ask that lady in front of you if she's boiled any frogs lately.
MediaMavenMyrna - Go ahead. We won't tell!
rtbarnes - Has a line formed yet for next up?
Tymlee - What a resounding, cavernous echo it would make. Waste of a Blackberry to boot.

The demonic scowl on my face had been beaten into submission by Twitter. I was actually smiling. And Teabag lady was saved by the miracle of social media.

Intellectually, we all know this. We know that the people that go to these events really aren't interested in what anyone has to say. But to see it so clearly and so close was quite something.

A couple people spoke up in favor of a public option, which was met with healthy applause, including mine. I even "woooo"ed once, just to watch Teabag lady's shoulders rise about three inches until she looked like she had no neck. One of the public option people was a member of the military, which once again had Teabag lady confused. Lots of applause for the military part, and lots of head shaking and arm folding for the public option part.

The Senator said some good things and some not so good things, depending where you stand. He wants reform, and conversation. He wants a good bill, and he wants to help people and small businesses. He wants people to be informed, and provided links and information to non-partisan sources of information. He is opposed to the idea of single-payer. He thinks we should be able to buy insurance across state lines. He doesn't think that a bill will be ready by October 5.

A lot of people gave him grief. A couple people said that they want him to be a "maverick."

Then a high school girl stood up at the mic and read from a piece of paper in a lilting, sing-songy "I'm a cute high school girl" sort of way. She was there with several other family members, all with papers and index cards with notes on the same topic. She wanted to talk about "socialized medicine," she said.

An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before but had once failed an entire class. That class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich.

The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

No, I did not take notes that fast. I just got home and Googled "socialism email" and found a copy of the insipid bulk email that's been flying around the internet for the past few years talking about why socialism doesn't work. At the end of the story, everyone gets an F because nobody has any incentive to work. I wanted to ask Socialism girl if she'd ever heard of a Montessori School. There are no grades, but somehow they manage to produce lots of kids who work hard, have good study habits, are intellectually curious and who love learning. I suspect most of them will be doing their own research on topics of a political nature, rather than doing a "rip & read" of some fictitious anecdotal bulk email at a town hall meeting. She got to the end of the paper, which one of her parents had undoubtedly given her, and this little future Palin/Bachmann Death Panelist got cheers and hollers of appreciation from the crowd.

By the time I left, the vitriol and anger toward the Senator seemed to be dissipating. One thing you can say about the Senator is that he has an Obama-esque calm. It's very hard not to like him. As I walked out, I had the distinct feeling that the people that went there to hate him walked out hating him a little less. This is a good thing. By not shrinking from the hardest of the hard-core adversaries, he made them sit in a room with him for two hours and see that he's actually not a bad guy, and he's really interested in helping people.

As I walked down the hall, I could still hear what was happening inside blaring from speakers on the wall outside the doors. One angry guy was saying something like, "You know, when you come here and talk, you sound like one of us." And then something about shooting moose, and wondering how can we trust him to be this way in Washington ... I wasn't thrilled about hearing a teabagger say that the guy I voted for sounded like one of them. But do they even know what they sound like, or even what they believe?

And it occurred to me what a strange situation this Democratic Senator is in. The Democrats in Alaska are frustrated because someone that they don't think is left enough gets shredded for being too left. And the people who are politically engaged and passionate are often those on the far right. There's no pleasing everyone. One of the people at the meeting had said, "I never felt like I had a Senator who spoke for me until now." And I thought of Ted Stevens, who was a convicted felon at the time of the 2008 election. Begich, Alaska's first Democratic senator in decades, defeated him by only a few thousand votes. As I stepped out into the cool rainy Alaskan evening, I wondered what Ted Stevens' town hall meeting might have been like.

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Comments

[IhaveaDREAMwhitegirl]

AKM, you are as hilarious as you are astute in your covering important issues that affect the public. I fell in love with themudflats during the election and the proper vetting you Shaynn, Gryphyn, Andrea and others did re: Palin that our MSM willfully turned a blind eye to.

Saw you on TRMS you looked cool calm and collected. Keep up the good work, this country needs people like you. Cheers!

[roudy]

If they're young and ignorant, the passing of years will change at least one of these conditions. If they're old and still ignorant, then the passing of years will cure both conditions.

[LincolnBrigader]

You can't reason with unreasonable people. You can't enlighten the willfully ignorant. The only thing that could bring them around is for them to actually experience benefits from the change they so vociferously oppose. Until then, they'll be a drag on human progress. Until then, America will be the only Western industrial democracy without some form of national health insurance, and the one that pays the most for the least. Health should not be a scarce good, one that gets scarcer by the year. A nation's most precious resource is the health of its people, and until such regressives are dragged, kicking and screaming if necessary, into the 21st century, our nation will be unnecessarily weakened and undermined. It is indeed a matter of national security. Progress is good and necessary for America.

[Mike Hihn]

>>>>>Until then, America will be the only Western industrial democracy without some form of national health insurance, and the one that pays the most for the least

No different than GOP Birthers - blind faith.

If you don't like our healthcare, blame FDR for another New Deal failure - and Democrats who keep screwing it up. The same Democrats who just caused the near-collapse of our entire financial system, and a worldwide crisis -- in defense of subprime mortgages.

(I'm not saying Democrats are evil. Certainly no worse than the GOP) Democrats blocked regulation of subprime mortgages, to increase affordable housing for low-income families. They just had no clue what they were doing -- as we see now with healthcare)

A quarter century ago, HMOs enjoyed a 25-30% price advantage over 3rd party insurers -- then Democrats sabotaged THAT by mandating Community Rating. It takes some kind of stupid to not have realized what would happen next.

Democrats sabotage HMOs, which were vastly superior (and cheaper) than any single-payer plan. Republicans helped because HMOs would have put most insurance companies out of healthcare. So special interests get all they want, both left and right: a biparisan collusion screws the people.

Democrats (overall) are no different than GOP Dealth Panelists. But the sheeple -- diehard extemists -- the base in both parties -- is now only a quarter of the electorate and falling.

www.PoliticallyHomeless.net "The New Majority: Americans fed up with BOTH parties.

[Lemeritus]

I think we get your drift, Mike. The Democrats are responsible for everything. The Republicans, Libertarians, and moonshiners are responsible for nothing. And you are the final authority on all of it. Thank you for sharing.

[Appleblossom]

HMOs are third party payers. FYI

[LincolnBrigader]

25-30% is peanuts when you consider how much we pay for healthcare, and how much more we pay each and every year. Let me make it plain: Healthcare is far too important to be left only to the alleged "free market," whether HMO-based or no. Of all the Western industrial democracies, only in America is healthcare a scarce good. You should expend more energy on a solution that is the most human one, one that nations less wealthy than ours enjoy. I'll grant you your point that both parties have been corrupted, and have allowed their "clients" to distort the healthcare debate, but I implore you to apply your energies toward a broader solution to our healthcare problem than HMOs. And finally, How do you know whether HMOs would have provided a cheaper long-term solution to healthcare than single payer, when we've never had a broad single-payer solution in this country? I guess, in the grand scheme of things, we're having nothing more than a theoretical philosophical discussion, unfortunately.
With respect,
V

[blueken]

" He thinks we should be able to buy insurance across state lines." I'm pretty sure that all the major players know that private insurance can't go national. Two major problems:
1. State regulations on health insurance. Each state has their own regulations on what insurers must cover. Administrating 50 different sets of rules would be a nightmare.
2. Negotiating prices with doctors and hospitals. At one time we had a policy at work that had no network doctors in the western part of the state. That's just in one medium sized state.

I have to think that if I can see those problems, so can the people who say that national competition or co-ops will be health care reform. They know it won't work, it's just a smoke screen.

[RealityBaseCamp]

They want to remove the state limitations so the insurance companies can state-shop for the weakest regulations like the banks and credit card companies did. They keep telling us that if we deregulate just a little more, there will be competition that will drive down costs. There has never been that competition, and there won't be, until we stop giving big business what it wants.

[Lemeritus]

Bravo!

[blueken]

This is another flaw in any reform that leaves the private insurance industry in tact. In my state we have some pretty good regulations in place that keep health insurance companies from doing evil things to people. The insurance companies just raised the premiums. We will never contain abuse and cost as long as the private insurance companies control the health care system in this country.

[Mike Hihn]

>>>>so can the people who say that national competition or co-ops will be health care reform.
They know it won't work, it's just a smoke screen

Bzzzt, wrong. Educate yourself. Here's a link to the media arm of the vast right wing conspiracy -- the New York Times. (LOL)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/health/policy/07coop.html?_r=1


www.PoliticallyHomeless.net "The New Majority: Americans fed up with BOTH parties.

[SGlitz]

So when the president went to the AFL-CIO picnic and said that the "other side" has no ideas and then came out on the regular media and said the debate was closed he was just being "open" to other people's suggestions.
How about the Democrats voting down the very amendment that this senator supposedly agreed with (Congress having to abide by the same rules). Or the amendment for cost analysis, or the "transparency" of the Baucus Bill that ended with a "concept" outline???
Oh, that's right, you're not an "un-American", "racist", "sexist", "gun-toting" "ignorant" "hick"
You're "informed"...
You're "tolerant"
and "open" to critics and other ideas.... :)

[Lemeritus]

Whoa there!

What say we do one of those flow chart thingies?

One, do you believe we need health care reform? If the answer is no, we're done here. If the answer is yes, proceed to...

Two, do you think the "other side" (in this regard, I believe Obama meant the Republican Party) has offered a reasonable package? Any package at all? (And, no, you can't use the Baucus plan as a Republican proposal, though many of us would.)

Three, do you believe there are "racist, sexist, gun-toting, ignorant hicks" loose in this country? If yes, are you one? If no, do you nevertheless find this kind of behavior all-American patriotism at its best? If not, why do you seek to defend the basest form of political theater?

[Joel Redman]

The Baucus bill is a bill, not an outline, and it is going through the full committee amendment process as we speak. The cost analysis was to measure over 20 years, and BTW I believe it passed, although I might be wrong on that one. Either way, cost analyses of 20 years are very inaccurate because too many assumptions have to be made to make them of any use.

Furthermore, the other "quotes" are also inaccurate.

[Mixpixlix]

There's a wonderful article in yesterday's Tennessean about the real impact of medical care/cost on every day people. It's devasting. Four days in a hospital, no diagnosis and a bill for $33,000. Most shocking is the revelation that there IS a debtor's prision. You can be hauled off to jail on something called a body attachment if the hospital, doctor, collection agency convinces the judge you're not trying hard enough to pay your bill.

The one issue that never seem to come up in health care reform decisions is COST. Hospitals attachment ridiculous prices to everyday items and we don't get to negotiate. That is UNTIL it's shown the person can't pay and them some negotiation is underway.

Try to get a doctor to tell you in advance what his or her fees are before the operation. No other busines, and healthcare is a business, gets away with not revealing it's prices prior to "purchase."

The teabagers are largely ignorant and self destructive. The good news is that normal people have caught on and they've lost their clout. Now if only the media would focus on those who want reform.

[So Cute]

Nice article. Begich held him self well. Didn't really allow them to take over the town hall meeting. I'm sure that angered the tea-baggers, more.

[PhilipTaylor]

MEDICARE PUBLIC CHOICE + COMPETITION = Lowest Cost + Highest Quality

Enter your Zip Code and Medicare Public Choice Plan plus all Legal Plans for your state are shown sorted by ANNUAL COST!

You and/or Your Family Pick a Choice and changes any time the plan fails you-No Strings!
_______________

Medicare Public Choice in an Internet EXCHANGE with 1,300 INSURERS Plans Ranked by COST

Competition Between Public & Private Plans BRINGS DOWN COSTS+IMPROVES QUALITY

We have Three (3) passed committee Bills in House + One (1) in Senate all With Public Options!

BAUCUS PLAN IS Badly FLAWED and must be SHELVED!
_______________

Details:

HR 676 (Medicare Public Choice 26% Savings) + Wyden Bill (Internet Exchange)

HR 676 Link: http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.676.IH:

Wyden S 391 Link: http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/thomas

Merge these two SIMPLE COST SAVING IDEAS so easy to READ and Understand!

CBO calls Wyden Plan Deficit Neutral and reduces Deficit by $Billion!
__________ __________ ___

BAUCUS BILL IS IN A QUAGMIRE = PURE Gobbledygook on TOP of a BROKEN SYSTEM!

BAUCUS = DUCT TAPE AND RUBBER BANDS ON A BROKEN SYSTEM! NOT even Good Tape!

It does not work on a flat tires and it will NOT work HERE!

Shelve the Baucus Plan and Build on the FOUR PLANS that are already approved by Committees!

Add MORE COMPETITION with Wyden Bill+Medicare and Make an Empowered MEDICARE the Administrator of the PROGRAM!

[Mike Hihn]

Ahhh, Medicare may be the most collosal failure on earth.

45% of its revenues income from INCOME (not payroll) taxes.
They underpay doctors and hospitals -- who then recover their losses from the privately insured, which is why insurance premiums are skyrocketing.

The Medicare Trustees Report -- signed by Timothy Geither -- has issued a Medicare Funding Alert.

Medicare gets subsidies from income taxes and insurance companies, but still has $38 TRILLION in unfunded liabilities.

And under current conditions, a 54 year old has no assurance Medicare will still be there -- again per Timothy Geither.

And Medicare is now in worse financial shape than even Social Security (thanks to Bush's Medicare Prescription payoff to Insurance and Pharma.)

For anyone who is not a knee-jerk, blind-faith liberal, go read the report yourself--or you'te no different than a Birther in denial.

This link is just a summary (I'll be kind!) with a link to the full report at the bottom

http://www.hhs.gov/news/press/2008pres/03/20080325a.html

www.PoliticallyHomeless.net "The New Majority: Americans fed up with BOTH parties.

[xlntcat]

Medicare doesn't get subsidies from insurance companies, it pays subsidies to insurance companies. Doctor's and hospital defraud medicare day in and day out so the excuse they use to gouge the private sector is just a convenient excuse. By the way, they defraud the insurance companies also.

[wmfor]

The telling line in your rant is: "(thanks to Bush's Medicare Prescription payoff to Insurance and Pharma.)"

I would be interested in knowing your age, and why exactly you (apparently) want to scrap Medicare. I presume you intend to pay for your health care out of your own pocket from age 65 to, God willing, 95.

[jamaicalover]

Administration and Funding of Medicare
Funding for Medicare comes partially from payroll taxes, known as FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act) taxes. FICA comprises Social Security tax and Medicare tax. The rate of the Medicare tax is 2.9 percent. Employers withhold 1.45 percent from their employees and match it with another 1.45 percent [Ref]. High-income Social Security beneficiaries also pay income tax on their Social Security income, some of which goes toward Medicare. This money goes into a trust fund used to pay doctors, hospitals and private insurance companies when Medicare patients use their services. This trust fund has been more difficult to manage than the Social Security trust fund, because health care expenditures are harder to track and can change quickly. Medicare Part B is partially (about 25 percent) paid for by premiums and co-pays. In all, Medicare costs about $277 billion per year, roughly 13 percent of the total federal budget [Ref].

[Laserbeam]

I presume you'll be refusing Medicare when you're 65. Right?

[Wong23]

As a recovering Alaskan now living in Hawaii, I feel I may have left too soon. Having said that, too see the son of the great late Mark Begich dethrone Stevens has been a real delight even from all the way down here.

[Lemeritus]

"recovering Alaskan" (as am I)... interesting concept which I will add to my CV.

Hope you had an opportunity to read Hickel's op-ed re Palin.

[DuganS1]

I think there needs to be higher deductibles and co-pays. Right now the system is set up as to incentivize people to use as many health care services and drugs as possible. People feel a little down - why not go to Psychiatrist all the time and get anti-depressants and charge it all to the insurance company, (which the rest of us pay for). Seniors want more mojo - so go to the doctor, get viagra and charge it all to insurance (the rest of us). Belly hurts? Go to the doctor, demand a cat-scan and a bunch of blood tests. Why not? Back hurts? Why not go to the chiropractor a few times a week and have insurance (everybody else) pay for it.

Right now it's like you pay a fixed amount each month (well, some don't pay at all), but get a free all you can eat smorgasboard of services and treatments, needed or not. It's simply a bad system. People can demonize insurance companies all they want, but their margins are relatively small. The problem lies with ever increasing health care costs, and they continue to increase because people over-use the system. Even doctors game the system by ordering too many test to make money. They have an incentive to do so. They need some disincentives.

[incognito-ergo-sum]

DuganS1, anti-depressants are not paid in full by insurance companies. On Medicare we need a private insurance company for meds and on many they just pay half or less. Medicare is not free there is an amount deducted each month. Insurance companies give bonuses of millions to their executives and millions more for advertising. Their margins are huge.

Hopefully you will never get sick and overuse the system. Doctors don't make money off of tests, the testing companies do.

[Laserbeam]

Wow, you must have great health insurance. Trust me - it's not like that for most of us. I currently avoid going to the doctor if I can help it, because even with insurance I can't afford to go.

I'm an employee of the State, and we are told all the time that we have the very best healthcare. I have watched our plans go from what you describe above about 14 years ago to today, when we not only have a high monthly out-of-pocket cost but also high deductibles and co-pays. The cost of my insurance next year is going so high that I might as well not have any insurance.

[Enjay 1]

How true and very sad AKM -

"She didn't care at all what the Senator had to say. She was there to be mad. She was not there to listen, or learn, or engage in dialogue. She had no idea what she wanted or why. "

They are the people that forward those fictional emails spewing hate without checking the facts because it said what they wanted.

Our country is in so much trouble with astronomical deficits, unemployment, health care, two wars, banks failing, and yet President Obama is blamed because he has been in office less than 10 months. Instead of asking themselves what can I do to help find a solution - they just stomp their feet & yell like a 5 year old.

The paved roads they drive on, parks their children play in, the school they attended, how about the train they maybe ride to the city, or clean water from the faucet or gets flushed down the sewer, school lunch, daycare center, even the internet and electricity are all somehow funded by the government by grants, bills, taxes, or government incentives; for the betterment of society & its citizens. How many Doctors didn't need a student loan, fellowship or some type of grant (blessed by the government IRS) to get through Medical school?

It is so sad they hate the same government that encouraged education, creative innovation, and business developement.

[BlueSkyPilot]

Maybe it's time for "Organizing for America" to establish itself as a viable third party.

They made the difference in 2008 and can make the difference again in 2010 and 2012.

I’m sure they can field qualified candidates from within their ranks.

[vippy]

The quickest way I suggested, vote all incumbents out of office regardless of party affiliation.
They work for the corporations not us, yes, both parties. They are all crooked and only out for themselves. They all got rich while in office. Only then we can achieve a better result. They will start to listen again to those who put them in office or only stay 4 years and gone they are again!
Let us be smart = our only way to fight back.

[IhaveaDREAMwhitegirl]

Here, here.

I'm planning to donate to new progressives in a few states. Term limits would be ideal to clean our political house.

AKM, good thing you didn't waste your blackberry on thwacking teabag 'lady'. She wouldn't have felt it anyway.

Keep up your fantastic work. I read Mudflats with my morning coffee or late-night Pinot, Cheers.

[ThanksMatt]

Well done Mark Begich. Obamaesque calm is the best way to deal with these people.

Thanks for reporting, AKM!

[Mike Hihn]

Why are liberals so confused about co-ops? And why do Democrats keep sabotaging them?

Co-Ops and original-style HMOs -- employing their own doctors, owning their own hospitals and pharmacies -- would be OBVIOUSLY cheaper than any government plan - for the same level of service.

NO claims-processing expense. Liberals bitch about insurance overhead, but ignore ways to ELIMINATE that overhead.

My view: liberals will continue sabotaging anything that threatens their cherished single-payer plan.

Conservatives will sabotage anything that threatens their cherished Insurance and Big Pharma donors.

That's why both parties sabotaged HMOs a quarter-century ago. At the time, HMOs enjoyed a 25-30% price advantage over third-party insurance. Community Rating destroyed that.

So the special interests get everything they want. And the people keep getting screwed.

Democrats have had an unbroken string of economic failures for decades. We still haven't recovered from the subprime mortgage meltdown they engineered. Republicans are just as useless, defending their donors instead of free markets.

Republicans want to get government out of healthcare. Democrats want to get insurance companies out. But what's best for the PEOPLE is to get BOTH government and insurance companies out of healthcare.

http://PoliticallyHomeless.net
"The New Majority: fed up with BOTH parties"

[longears]

Sure glad I don't have to listen to you Mr. Hihn. I am a liberal that is for public option governement ran. I have never bitched about insurance overhead. I only bitch about insurance companies. I am also a democrat and when you say we have had economic failure for decades I do not have a clue what you are talking about. Do you just make this stuff up when you sleep at night? I have no desire to join a co op. Democrats do not want to get insurance companies out. Republicans just don't want the government stopping them from getting richer.

[Mike Hihn]

>>>>Sure glad I don't have to listen to you Mr. Hihn

You'd probably not understand it.

>>>>I am a liberal that is for public option governement ran.

I'm a libertarian. That means I oppose anyone who would impose their on values on everyone else, through the power of government --- that would include yourself, the religious right and a few others.

>>>>I am also a democrat and when you say we have had economic failure for decades I do not have a clue what you are talking about

See what I mean about your ability to understand? I give an explicit example in my post!

>>>Do you just make this stuff up when you sleep at night?

Do you have anything intelligent to add? Like WHY you disagree, or what you're confused about.

>>>>I have no desire to join a co op

Ahhh, the democrat mentality -- assuming that would be your only choice.

And you just proved my point! You have no idea what a co-op might do, but you still reject it! Just as Democrats have been sabotaging anything that might threaten their fantasy for single-payer.

It's called liberty, pal. I'd never force you to join a co-op.

My other message for thoughtful readers: The "Birther Mentality" exists on both the right and the left. As we've just seen.

[wmfor]

HMO's stepped into the fray to make a mint when the Clinton Health Care initiative was sabotaged. Thank G*d I never joined one. I have never heard one person say a single good thing about their HMO.

Choice of doctor? You're lucky if you see the same doctor twice at a faceless corporate HMO.

[Cardrvr2002]

Doctors in many HMO's were also given disincentives for ordering tests. Didn't matter if the test was medically necessary or not. Insurance companies that ran these HMO's made millions while patients received sub-standard care.

[Mike Hihn]

Ohmigod ANOTHER ONE!!!


>>>>I have never heard one person say a single good thing about their HMO.

How about the New York Times, chump?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/health/policy/07coop.html?_r=1

>>>>Choice of doctor? You're lucky if you see the same doctor twice at a faceless corporate HMO

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/akmuckraker/senator-mark-begichs-town_b_300930.html#

[Laserbeam]

Do you belong to a Co-Op? I belong to a Co-Op - in fact, I belong to the one that's been touted by the Obama administration - namely Group Health Cooperative.

GHC was okay about 14 years ago. Over the last 14 years I have watched care deteriorate and costs rise. I can't believe it has been touted so much.

They missed several herniated discs and bone spurs on my neck and instead accused me of seeking pain killers.....it wasn't until I paid for an MRI out of my own pocket at a different hospital that I had the correct diagnosis.

When I donated a kidney to my father, who was on their insurance at the time, they sent me to collections! They were confused and wanted me to pay $100,000 for the privilege of donating the kidney, which entailed my mising six weeks of worth and giving up a rib, to boot.

They've made other mistakes as well, but that's not even the worst. I recently made an appointment for a physical. Guess what they think of as a physical? For women, a physical consists of a pap smear - and nothing more. I said, what about getting my hearing and vision checked? Two separate appointments, I was told. What about my cholesterol? Sepearate visit. I was further told that if I had any questions I wanted to ask the doctor beyond having to do with the pap smear, I'd be charged extra for the visit.

[Mike Hihn]

>>>>laserbeam.Do you belong to a Co-Op? I belong to a Co-Op - in fact, I belong to the one that's been touted by the Obama administration - namely Group Health Cooperative

That may be the most pathetic lie on this page. Or perhaps the lie was your posting stating an entirely health plan for yourtself: 2:15 on 9/28/2009 -- precisely 8 minutes before you posted this one. (LOL)

Repeat: GOP Birthers and Death Panelists are NOT the only psychos out there!

[Lemeritus]

Mr. Hihn, putting aside the bulk of your froth, I think you really need to take into serious consideration the law of diminishing returns vis-a-vis co-ops. To effectively reduce expense, a co-op must be over 500,000 members. However, the quality of care diminishes at the 300,000 to 400,000 member mark. They cannot provide a cost-control backstop, or a quality of health benchmark. They would have neither the reach nor, importantly, the authority to implement innovative delivery and payment reforms.

You can find amplification on this at the center for Health, Economic and Family Security.

[Mike Hihn]

>>>>Mr. Hihn, putting aside the bulk of your froth, I think you really need to take into serious consideration the law of diminishing returns vis-a-vis co-ops. To effectively reduce expense, a co-op must be over 500,000 members.

Do you have a point?

.Unless you give us a link to support yor claim. I shall assume the same lie used by Democrats. That's the size they say is needed to negotiate with doctors.

Listen and learn. All the successful ones EMPLOY THEIR OWN DOCTORS

I'm getting tired of posting the New York Times link. Show me yours.

And tell me again: How are you any different from the GOP Death Panelists, or the Holocaust deniers?

I'll wait for your link. I went to their site but couldnt find it.

[Alabama John]

Republican tea parties are 90% theatrics. As Republicans represent the upper class and strive to protect capitalism, which is the unregulated freedom to compete for excessive wealth.

And so, exactly what is excessive wealth? As many have great wealth and put it to great use helping those less fortunate, and this we should not call excessive wealth.

But as for us, except those among the homeless, we all are given an ability to produce excessive wealth, as a test, to see if we pass that excess down to those less fortunate where it belongs.

[minerva117]

Are you naive'? It's clear that the whole sytem is rigged to make acquiring wealth more difficult for those who do not possess it. And even more so over the past 8 years. The top 1% gota LOT wealthier while the rest of us got the shaft! And, so far, I haven't seen this Congress or this administration do anything real to level the playing field!