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Alan Krinsky

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Rational Theists and Rational Atheists of the World, Unite!

Posted: 03/02/10 10:33 AM ET

Rationality and hope possess the potential to bring Atheists and Theists together to better our world. The New Atheists -- Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and company -- miss something simple yet profound in their polemical attacks on Theists: the mystery of existence itself. We must start with this basic fact -- the fact of existence. That there is an is. That there is a world, a universe at all. That there is something rather than nothing. Existence is a great, awesome, wondrous mystery.

In the face of this mystery, Atheists remain as stunned and speechless, as flabbergasted and inarticulate as Theists. From within the confines, within the perspective of our universe, solving this mystery is probably not even possible. All we can do is reach for answers, always seemingly just beyond our grasp.

And the Atheistic answers to this mystery are no more rational than the religious ones. Is it any more rational to assert that existence arose out of nothing or that existence has always existed than to assert that a divine intelligence -- outside of time and space -- created it? Science, in the end, cannot disprove the Theistic conjecture nor prove one of the Atheistic ones. We ought not therefore conclude that it is by definition irrational to confront this mystery and cast one's lot with Theism. Theism and Atheism are equally reasonable beliefs.

And so, we have in the world, many quite rational people who, facing the enigma of the why-ness of the world, find a Theistic approach more compelling, perhaps even more rational, than the alternatives.

In contrast to the caricatures penned by the New Atheists of a mob or herd of mindless sheep, the ranks of the religious include many rather thoughtful people. Many scientists and other academics and professionals lead lives of religious practice and faith and yet engage fully with the physical, medical, and social sciences and the worlds of politics and literature. Such people are rational and thoughtful and skeptical. They are critical thinkers.

They do not live lives of blind faith, but experience the religious life as a persistent challenge. Instead of a life of entitlement, they live lives of obligation -- to family, to community, to God.

Often, probably usually, such people are able to integrate their religious and professional lives, and many see their contributions to the world as something of a calling, a use of their talents, in some small way, as serving God in the redemption of the world.

It is an insult to such people, Nobel Prize winners among them, to suggest that they are engaged in self-deception, that all people of faith are naïve or stupid or misguided or dupes.

And so, the New Atheists miss a second profound point: the richness, the thickness, the texture of the everyday life of so many believers.

They fail to see, for example, the bonds of community, the ways members of many a religious community remain ready at any hour of the day to assist their fellows and often strangers: to prepare food, watch children, provide financial assistance, visit the sick, and bury the dead.

The New Atheists fail to see the meaning-fullness possible in religious life, in communities of faith, a life of breadth and depth evident to any undergraduate major in anthropology or sociology.

No doubt atrocities have long been committed in the name of religion, as they have in the name of a host of secular ideologies. It is religion, however, as Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks has pointed out, that has given the world the very notion of hope. As Rabbi Sacks, the Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth, has so eloquently explained, the ancient prophetic tradition of Judaism gave birth to hope, to the idea of progress, to the longing for a messianic age. This prophetic tradition, Rabbi Sacks explains, is a protest against the world as it is, a call to transform our world into a different and a better place. It is precisely a thoughtful, critical and self-critical, religious orientation that can move us in such a direction while avoiding the fanaticism of various religious and secular ideologies alike.

Perhaps religion is irrational. But so is hope. And given the very mystery of existence, I and many other seemingly rational individuals embrace -- and struggle with -- both religion and hope.

Finally, it is in hope that Rational Theists and Rational Atheists can find common ground. We all want a better world, a more rational one. Given the mystery of existence, and the equal rationality or irrationality in choosing Theism or Atheism in confronting the mystery, I call upon Rational Atheists and Rational Theists of the world to unite! To combat the irrationality in our schools, our politics, and our public discourse.

 
Rationality and hope possess the potential to bring Atheists and Theists together to better our world. The New Atheists -- Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and company -- miss something simple yet ...
Rationality and hope possess the potential to bring Atheists and Theists together to better our world. The New Atheists -- Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and company -- miss something simple yet ...
 
 
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10:41 PM on 04/16/2010
I am also a rational theist. I can easily engage in discussion with rational atheists, but I know only one such person and enjoyed very much debating the existence or non-existence of something called God with this person.

As to being "united", that requires one person or both to "move" to a new point of view -- a thing that rational people are willing to do (that's part of being "rational") but at the conclusion, you no longer have an atheist and a theist; either you have two theists or two atheists.

"Strong" atheists have faith that there is no god. It is an irrational point of view and thus pointless to engage this kind in religious debate.

A person can have certain knowledge of God, or something one calls God (but my experience may differ from yours), but that does not create a theology. I know there is a God with complete certainty, but to you, these words are mere assertion. What it means however is that I will dismiss an assertion that there is no God at all because I know otherwise. Discussion must proceed from our uncertainties, NOT what we know for sure.
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rambot02
A modest proposal...
07:27 PM on 04/16/2010
"It is religion, however, as Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks has pointed out, that has given the world the very notion of hope."

This is a self-serving, anthropocentric statment. Long before homo sapiens "got religion" our hominid ancestors muddled through drought, famine and epidemic. Skeletal remains show evidence of disease and fractures (some catastrophic) that occurred well before the individual died. Something kept her/him going as the body healed. Isn't that something *hope*?

There is evidence that certain mammals feel hope. It is easy to fall into the anthropomorphism trap, but elephants will stay behind with a sick individual even when doing so puts their survival at risk. Are they feeling *hope* that their friend/relative may rally? (They might also be feeling empathy, another notion Sacks probably believes springs from religion.)

Emotions, including *hope*, have an evolutionary value and existed long before humans began to thank a deity when times were good and plead with that deity when times sucked. A species that experiences hope -- the feeling that something good will happen in the future -- is simply more likely to persevere through bad times.

I am not a radical atheist; there are aspects of this article I find thought-provoking. But I do have to take exception with Rabbi Lord Sacks self-congratulatory and errant observation.

PS: "Rabbi Lord" is an honorific two-fer you don't see every day, at least not on this side of the pond.
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07:42 AM on 04/15/2010
I reject this unfair characterization. Challenging ideas is not the same as "bashing."

Scientists, "New Atheists," skeptics, are more than willing to celebrate the profound wonder of life. Your definition of "profound" may not be particularly interesting to them, but there is much joy to be found in the world. Much of it can be explained and understood logically; that does not reduce its value.

Symphony of Science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGK84Poeynk
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Siebenstein
99% -Don't do what they tell you !
05:38 PM on 04/02/2010
Rational Theists ?

Really?

How about rational Psychics and rational Psychiatrists unite ?
02:38 AM on 04/02/2010
Theists believe that there are beings out among or beyond the stars or in the ether among the quarks who have survived the eons and who are willing and able to communicate the ways of survival to us who seek in prayer, study, fasting meditation, yoga etc. Atheists see no proof for the existence of these beings and would rather folks pay closer attention to developing debate over societal norms based on scientific studies rather than holy books and religious experiences which are more highly subjective. How can there be much rational intercourse between the two? Surely both are rational responses to a world whose origins and composition and future are basicly unknowable and in the deepness of that mystery we can all commiserate. Nonetheless the approach/method of providing our lives with meaning and a light to guide our decisions and actions is opposite between the two - that's why the the one group is named theist and its opposite is called atheist. Tolerate, love, respect, each other certainly, but work together - absurd.
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HappyBalance
People BEFORE Profits
12:08 AM on 03/25/2010
Thanks Alan Krinsky, this is what I have been saying, largely to no avail, among people of like minds on a multitude of issues. If Atheists and Believers of all stripes can work together on something (the environment, health care, whatever) then why not? Sadly many on both sides, looking at you Alternet, would much rather just like to play King of the Mountain. Gets real old, real quick. I would imagine that on some things we can work together on and respect our differences.
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tbone99
cruisin' duality
10:16 PM on 03/24/2010
How about religion only be discussed within the confines of church and not allowed into public discourse..?

The fact that an atheist has no chance of running for office means a lot of us are not represented in this country and that is indeed anger inducing , because we pay taxes, have children and contribute to
society yet are forced to support other people 's churches who then feel free to demonize and exclude us from honest national conversation.
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HappyBalance
People BEFORE Profits
12:03 AM on 03/25/2010
As a Progressive Catholic I agree with you. Atheists should be able to run for and win office. Also that churches should tend to their own and NOT demonize those who believe differently or don't believe at all.
12:32 PM on 03/25/2010
I don't think it's true that an atheist couldn't win a run for office, though this is the conventional wisdom. We've had at least two presidents who were "deists" (a kind of atheist if you take atheist to mean "non-theist), Jefferson and Madison. And it isn't clear if Lincoln was a deist or a straight up atheist but he was certainly accused of being one during the campaign and never rebuked the charge.

I think if people were introduced to a good candidate who happened to be an atheist, it really wouldn't affect many peoples' vote. For example, if you ask most people, do you think a twice-married B-movie actor should be president (cough, Reagan), most people will say "hell no". The same thing when you ask them, "should an atheist be president". The candidate has to come first.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
02:50 PM on 03/17/2010
Wouldn't you know it - put out an invitation to rational discussion, and who shows up? A few willing to answer the call and all the people who have nothing better to do than rehash past atrocities of the other side AGAIN and mocking/ridiculing anyone who disagrees with them AGAIN and complaining about how the other side wants to force their beliefs on them AGAIN and calling the other side names and using derogatory buzz words and phrases of their side AGAIN. I've only been on HuffPo for less than a week and I've already lost count (much less interest) in these re-runs. I find myself longing for some sort of filter. If you don't get rational or reasonable, I guess that's your right. But at some point, it's just boring to those of us who aren't TRUE BELIEVERS on either side.
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JohnFromCensornati
The End is near
04:50 PM on 03/17/2010
"using derogatory buzz words"

Oh, you must mean buzz words like "Fundamentalist Atheist".
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
06:39 PM on 03/17/2010
Can I have a civil discussion with you about my suggestion that it would be more honest and descriptive of so-called Neo / New Atheists to self-label as "fundamentalist" rather than have a label applied to them? All kinds of groups have self-applied variations on "fundamentalist" as a means of trying to make clear to others that they are the purest of the pure in their genre. I just can't believe that simple, unadorned "atheist" is really descriptive.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
07:03 PM on 03/17/2010
I mean, doesn't just using "atheist" imply a broader base of support for your slant on atheism then really exists? Or are atheists actually a monolithic bloc? I was thinking not, because, even when I was an atheist/ agnostic I would have disagreed with some of your stuff. Would that make me a liberal atheist or a conservative one?
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HappyBalance
People BEFORE Profits
12:04 AM on 03/25/2010
GDWhiteman well said and fanned.
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Stephen Schettini
Stephen Schettini: once a Buddhist monk, now a wri
08:22 PM on 03/13/2010
What's important is that we're arrested by the paradox of reason. Neither deists nor athiests can explain existence. All their reasons and beliefs are opinions with no chance of ultimate resolution. Humanity's challenge is to affirm that we don't know, and thrive on that uncertainty — the existential dilemma that's one of the few things we know for sure.
The meaning of life isn't about reasons or explanations; it's about awe.
11:37 PM on 04/01/2010
The meaning in life is anything an individual says has meaning although there can be no unbiased meaning unless there is communication with someone who is objective. We create "God" in order to judge and then love ourselves. Revelational religion meets this need to have standards to judge ourselves and gain self approval by the creation of holy books whose writings are revealed by someone from the stars eg an angel/ son of God or by some out of conscious experience/ hallucination. Religion is to my mind a rational response to a basicly irrational world.
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05:40 PM on 03/11/2010
Because unbelievers reject God, their transgressions are not forgiven and they are subject to eternal death. Men are condemned to Hellfire for all eternity when they sin against the light of nature and their conscience. Rejection of God greatly intensifies the sinner's guilt, but it is not the source of the guilt. If not believing were the only sin of damned souls, then the heathens who are unaware of God’s Word would have to be excused by a just God, but sin is not a physical ailment. It’s an immoral choice. The wicked are without excuse.
God believes it's important for the righteous to judge the wicked.
God is love.
08:06 PM on 03/11/2010
Heathens who are unaware of God’s Word could maybe be excused, I don't know, I've always had a hard time with that one. But it's hard to imagine anyone today not ever hearing God's word.

As far as judging though, this is another tough one. On one hand, The Lord tells us, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged†(Matthew 7:1). On the other hand, the Bible tells us to beware of evildoers and false prophets and to avoid those who practice all kinds of sin. How can we tell who these people are if we don't make some kind of judgment about them?
I think we are to only judge others to the point where we know if they are good or not, but not to the point where we pass the final judgment on their eternal souls. The final judgment is in God's hands.
10:58 PM on 03/11/2010
Please consider the very real possibility that GodIs isn't on the level....
01:07 PM on 03/16/2010
GodIs you have dutifully shown the problems with division among deists, atheists and agnostics. You chose to try to convince non believers that they should follow your beliefs out of "FEAR".
I reject your Faith because it leaves no room for investigating and studying other Faiths and theories about "Where we came from" and "Why are we here".
As an agnostic I chose to use my ability to think and be amazed at this whole universe that has been proved to me by science.
I will not attempt to tell anyone that I know the answers to these natural questions asked by Mankind and who knows, Maybe all living creatures wonder about these questions. "Where did the Universe come from", "how did it occur" and lastly "Why are we here and how did we get here" ?
Instead, I attempt to discuss these questions and use reason and logic only to be insulted by those like you, when they simply predict my demise into a firepit of suffering for eternity by your "GOD".
I respect those who have faith and understand that "FAITH" does not make them the smartest people in this Universe.
I humbly continue in my quest for answers to these Universal questions.
Peace be with you !
05:05 PM on 03/11/2010
"In contrast to the caricatures penned by the New Atheists of a mob or herd of mindless sheep, the ranks of the religious include many rather thoughtful people."

Come now. Our whole reason for existing is to serve as foils for their presumed brilliance. Don't tell them what they don't want to hear.

The majority of New Atheists carry on like former fundamentalist believers. Which is what I suspect many--if not most--of them are. That is to say, they've gone from absolute acceptance of, say, the Bible to absolute rejection of it. They're no in between. And they'll carry on for hours explaining why there's no in between. To them, the world is composed of absolutes. For such folks, science is replacing religion as a safe haven for absolute thinking in that the scientific method provides a solid and indisputable authority for them. And so they clout religion with science, convinced they have the ultimate club. All the while, they deny that they're clubbing anything or anyone. Strange people, imo.
06:58 PM on 03/11/2010
I'm sorry, but you have me a little confused.
I can tell you're angry, but I'm not sure if you're a Christian who hates atheists , or an "Old Atheist" who hates "New Atheists".
I also don't understand the difference in the beliefs of Old or New Atheists.
I'm fairly new on computers, so maybe this is jargon I'm too old to have heard.
I'd appreciate the help.
And not to be judgmental, but if you are a Christian, you're not going to win any souls with your temper.
I'm not perfect, but I'm a Christian, and the Lord says we must love our enemies.
01:09 AM on 03/12/2010
Hm. I tried to answer. Best to look up "new atheism" (or neo-atheism) on Google--it's a standard term by now and the definitions are pretty consistent, in my experience.

Sorry I'm coming across to you as angry--my goal is to be critical. I'm calling things as I see them. Atheists have every right to not be religious. More power to them. But when they insist on falsely characterizing believers and their beliefs, someone should call them on it. To love them we must uncritically accept their uninformed dismissals of faith? I can think of any number of reasons why that wouldn't be love.
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JohnFromCensornati
The End is near
06:24 AM on 03/12/2010
Wow, Ann! You are very perceptive for a HuffPost newbie.

"New atheist" is a derogatory term used by angry xian atheist haters. It refers to atheists who have the audacity to speak up.
12:41 AM on 03/10/2010
Philosophy I understand, but if nobody can prove the origin for being, what is the point of Theism or Atheism?
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Roses
In a gentle way, you can shake the world.
02:21 AM on 03/10/2010
The point, Jim, is one of living.
Philosophy and religion can co-exist.....it is a question of answers and whether you accept those answers or not.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
02:37 PM on 03/17/2010
Perhaps the ranting about what we can't agree on could be put aside as we consider other matters that we might find agreement?
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Writeonwater
Let's be critical of rhetoric
01:22 PM on 03/09/2010
Overgeneralization = Fallacy whoever does it.

When you say,

The New Atheists [...]miss something simple yet profound in their polemical attacks on Theists: the mystery of existence itself.
[...]The caricatures penned by the New Atheists of a mob or herd of mindless sheep, the ranks of the religious include many rather thoughtful people. [...]Such people are rational and thoughtful and skeptical. They are critical thinkers.

Granting the premise is “sometimes true†let’s look at what Christian biology textbook writers against evolution are saying. “Christian worldview … is the only correct view of reality; anyone who rejects it will not only fail to reach heaven but also fail to see the world as it truly is.â€
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20100306/us-rel-home-school-evolution/

Criticism needs to be clear and sometimes abrupt to be effective, not for the fanatics but to those who are moved by fanatics and also those who shelter them. The fanatics are not likely going to change but those who can reason need to be engaged fully. Facts work and have convinced many who have reason, but those facts are often unsentimental. That does not make it wrong to say them and it is NOT AN ATTACK. If feels like an attack when it is unflattering but that is not persecution. A parent exposing a lie of a teen with a fact is not attacking them.
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bsmithslo
03:39 PM on 03/09/2010
It is very hard to imagine how the fact that we exist at all can be grasped by reason or rationality alone. The only rational response is to accept our existence as fact and to use our existence as a starting place. That is what the "rational new Atheist" has done. None of them would suggest there is a purpose for existence or even the question the cause of our existence to any great extent. That is generally where the rational and the irrational part ways. That is why the term "rational Theist" is a bit of an oxymoron. The religious mind dabbles in that which is beyond what can be understood by reason alone. The religious mind is "irrational" in the sense that it recognizes the limitations of reason.
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Writeonwater
Let's be critical of rhetoric
10:16 PM on 03/09/2010
Mature reason has limits; it acknowledges those limits and drops error when possible, it recognizes when it’s filling in the blanks with imagination. That does not make the conclusions true. It's a hypothesis.

God being a cause and existence being an effect, religious people reason, about cause-and-effect. That's a realm of science too. Do the facts suggest the proposition is true?

It is not enough that something cannot be proved wrong. If something is true it should not lead to error. Examples of cause-and-effect reasoning; Jews were responsible for the plague in Europe because they were less affected by it. Therefore they were killed. The truth-Jews were washing and that was why they weren't getting sick. Religious leaders were against Ben Franklin’s lightning rod because they believed lightning striking homes was God's punishment. I understand in Vienna alone the Jesuits successfully cast out (exorcism) of people 12,652 Devils by means of humiliation (pride being Satan's downfall) using disgusting substances and when that wasn't sufficient, torture. The long-list goes on.

Those defending creation education books have said "Those who do not believe that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant Word of God will find many points in this book puzzling,"

Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God? If so consider Mathew 10: 33-40 (&many others)
04:40 PM on 03/11/2010
Must be a chore hauling your ego around. Do you use a dolly? Hire a truck?
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Writeonwater
Let's be critical of rhetoric
02:23 PM on 03/13/2010
What does my critic mean by ego? I read an article, disagreed with some premises; citing one premise to dispute and acknowledged the premise may have “some†truth. I sourced a fact and reasoned from that fact to what seems a probable opinion. I then gave an analogy to support my opinion; most adults have had or observed exposés with teens.

Question: If This Exemplifies Egotism Than What's the Ideal? The alternative is to not read, or disagree, or acknowledge some possible truth in a disputed premise, don't give sources nor form an opinion based on a fact. Nor suggest a direction of reasoning. Can this be what he means?

My critic obviously reads, disagrees and certainly has an opinion. He did not refute my facts, sources, nor observations. He stated his opinion which was off-topic. Perhaps he means I am egotistical because he does not agree with me. If this is correct then there are unflattering adjectives that describes such actions.

Is he a true believer or perhaps a shill? Regardless, deeming me too flawed is an ad-hominem diversion-fallacy. He isn't seeking my improvement but rather is dismissing my reasoning. Diversion is meant to stop another reader from asking the questions “is this true, is the reasoning valid, does it coincide with my observations, and if not why?â€
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alsm9
Bombshell
12:55 PM on 03/09/2010
It seems to me this is one more example of a "theist" cloaking an attack on atheism with a disingenuous "lets all just get along" pap. The burden of proof is on you to prove your claims and you have not. Atheism does not stand on the assumption that something is "true" when it comes to the origin of life, it is the acknowledgement that we do not yet know what the truth is and we don't sit around making stuff up to fill the void. Religious people seem very discontent with not being given an answer to something, which is why atheist and theist will never get along.
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Roses
In a gentle way, you can shake the world.
12:01 PM on 03/10/2010
I think you are talking about a different point and argument than is being presented here.
You are talking about "proving" your point.
This article is about toleration and mutual respect.
Respect does not depend on "proving" you are right. In fact, the very definition of toleration is disagreement. Toleration is just being OK with that disagreement. It is not trying to get others to admit you are right.

Toleration is not an attack on anyone.
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GDWhiteman
Christian mystic iconoclast
02:34 PM on 03/17/2010
Do we have to agree on everything before we can agree on anything? As I recall, this post is an invitation to rational people. Excuse yourself if you like.
11:59 AM on 03/09/2010
What do they think now?
Defectors: Church of Scientology hides abuse
56 years after its founding, the church is fighting off calls for a Reformation
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/35768921/ns/today-the_new_york_times/

New York Times
By Laurie Goodstein
updated 2 hours, 47 minutes ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scientologists
http://www.bible.ca/scientology-poor-famous-members.htm
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_scientologist.html