A recent comment by NAACP President Benjamin Jealous had me saying here we go again:
In an article from ThinkBig:Jealous is also attuned to the civil rights struggles of another minority group--gay Americans--and aware of the public perception that black activists have been lukewarm in supporting their cause. Yet for his own family as well as the NAACP, he says, gay rights are not only important but "personal"--and if there's a gap between the movements, it's a product of insufficient outreach from the LGBT side.
I remarked "here we go again" because I can predict what's going to happen next.
Some in the LGBT community are going to be get defensive instead of maybe assessing the fact that Jealous's words have a ring of truth. Already, terms like "hater" and "homophobe" have been thrown around.
The black community will most likely have another "if we ignore it, maybe it will go away" moment that it always does when it comes to issues of the gay community.
Meanwhile, LGBT of color, who are by now are so used to this sort of thing, will wonder yet again "will these turkeys ever get this issue right?"
I'm sorry if I sound cynical but when it comes to the tired old argument of black community vs. gay community, I feel as if some entity out of a Roger Corman movie has attached itself to my side and has sapped the energy right out of me, putting in its place a kind of weariness.
So let me be succinct. I'm tired of the arguments. It doesn't matter if the gay movement for equality is the same as the African-American civil rights movement (it is). And it doesn't matter if sometimes, well-meaning white gays and lesbians refuse to acknowledge that they take unfair liberties in assessing the two movements without knowing the inner workings of the black civil rights movements (they do).
We are going to continue to have this tired argument until both communities stop clinging to past symbolism and acknowledge the present and probably only true connection between the black and gay community - me and the rest of my lgbt brothers and sisters of color.
Speaking for myself, I get a very low opinion of both communities when this tug of war of position takes place. I don't feel like a person to the black or gay community. I feel like a commodity, a frozen asset. Both communities seem to be so busy with trying to use what tie I have to them for their own purpose that neither want to look at me as a person whose African-American heritage and lgbt sensibility mingle together to create something rich and unique which would be an asset to both communities.
I am useful to the LGBT community because I am gay. I am useful to the African-American community because I am a black man. But I don't seem to be useful to either community as a gay black man.
There are some of us who cannot separate being black and being gay into two separate camps because we encompass both identities.
But the problem is that neither community seems to get that point.
Part 1 of 3
I swear, this was like reading abstract poetry with no meaning. Okaaaay… here we go.
First, you stated: “my guess is you don't want equal rights, you want encouragementâ€
I won’t even dignify that with a response. If that’s what you “honestly†think, then I would hope that you’re bold enough to tell that to Gay & Lesbian couples who aren’t able to marry with full rights as heterosexuals are afforded; or maybe to our Gay & Lesbian soldiers that can’t serve openly without fear of being discharged that their quest for equality REALLY isn’t about rights, but rather; “a pat on the back and a smileâ€â€¦
Good luck with that one.
“Then you said; Battling bigotry is noble, but you would have to have a vigilance I have not seen from any supporting your causeâ€
Looks like you either don’t get out much or know a whole lot about the GLBTQ community then. I can’t even begin to tell you the amount of GLBTQ and GLBTQ supporting organizations there are out there, and to state that because you haven’t “seen†(nor taken the time to look) for those organizations that are on the front lines fighting for equality shows your level of knowledge in how vast GLBTQ people are making headway to make equality happen as a community abroad. Who said that bigotry was going to automatically “go away†with
equality?
Not to sound cynical here; but it leaves to question what about this topic gave you the impression the GLBTQ community would remotely “think†that equality would equal the end of the struggle the GLBTQ community or for civil rights as a whole?
Has this happened yet in the Black community????
Then you said, “If what you are fighting for is for someone else's validation I think you are effacing your relationship and the institution you claim you wish to uphold.â€
I almost took that comment as insulting because I know you know good and well the GLBTQ community is not spending, time, resources, money, and manpower fighting for equality simply for someone to “validate†who they already are. If that is the case then by using your logic; what we as Black people fought for was merely “validation†too because theoretically our survival wasn’t dependant upon White people alone. We didn’t have ( and really wasn’t necessary to be quite frank) to interact with Whites in order to live our daily lives. We knew that we were NO DIFFERENT than anyone else, fought and even died so that others could live free in equality as anyone else. This is what the GLBTQ community is fighting for right now.
If the fight for equality is merely about obtaining “validationâ€, you just insulted the entire Civil Rights movement.
Then in response to your “answer†that you gave to me: I totally failed to see the point you were trying to make.
This discussion is NOT about “sexuality†in physical form, this is about the Black & Gay communities meeting on common ground in support of equality for all people regardless of color, race, and/or sexual preference or orientation. One thing that many heterosexuals who aren’t in the full knowledge of the GLBTQ community tend to do is focus ENTIRELY on just the “sexual†aspect of GLBTQ people alone, and not the person or persona in their totality. GLBTQ people do not live, breathe, walk, talk, and think sex every moment of their lives, nor is it the ONLY part of their persona in which they live. HOWEVER, its amazing that BECAUSE of their orientation, they are denied the rights heterosexuals have SIMPLY because they are just that - Heterosexual. Your “response†dealt with whether or not people accept themselves, and I’m discussing the nature of the Black & Gay communities recognizing that equality is important to BOTH communities and therefore should create an alliance of unstoppable force that could and would transform civil rights in a whole new way.
Step out of the bedroom for a moment and into the reality of the discussion. This isn’t about “knowing yourselfâ€, this is about recognizing that GLBTQ people want nothing but the same rights, protections, and responsibilities as anyone else… No more, no less.
"Where is this "homophobia" of black people?", "Who are these so called, "victims" of homophobia?", & "To what degree is it present within the Black Community?".
Although I'm just doing some basic reading, I came across an interesting video with excepts of educators and professors from some of the nations top HBCUS to discuss the levels of Homophobia within the Black Community, the causes and reasons for it, and the effects it has on other GLBTQ POC. Hope this provides but just a small amount of insight.
http://vimeo.com/10592999
Unfortunately, Black people take on the bad habits of the larger white society.
Stop perpetuating some sort of gay vs black hate. Why don't u go fight the Mormons, Catholics, and white evangelicals who openly dispise gays?
What I find interesting (but not surprising) in most cases when there’s discussion of issues that doesn’t present a “favorable†view of Black people, there’s a heightened sense of sensitivity and denial that comes about (which was also expressed in the link I provided above). In EVERY comment that you and others made, one continued phrase the keeps coming about is that the motivation or origination of homophobia began, is owed, and manifested by Whites only. The link I provided to you PROVED that is simply not the case. Moreso, the piece I showed didn’t even have a white person present, so to pass the notion that homophobia is somehow only “spawned†by Whites, shows evasion of ownership and responsibility of what WE have inflicted upon OUR OWN PEOPLE.
Call it what you want, but I’m gonna’ call it “Keepin’ it REAL†(something we fail to do when critical topics needs to be discussed amongst us). I don’t need to fight against Mormons and Catholics because I’m not around them. I have a black community right here amongst ME that "I" need to reach and until we can GET HONEST, we can’t move forward.
The piece was about the struggle of being an lgbt of color in communities which seem to fight against each other so much that they don't acknowledge us. The comments prove my point BETTER than my piece.
Particularly those who ruminated over how blacks faced segregation and dehumanization. It amazes me that throughout all of their intellectual bleatings that none of them took into account that every point they make about the sufferings of the black community is rendered moot by the simple fact that many of those African-Americans who suffered were also lgbt.
And that is part of the point, unfortunately. As long as they deal with us on "their terms," some in the black community are okay with lgbts of color. However, when we challenge their paradigm of what is black culture, they get scared. its certainly food for thought.
You do understand that Black people don't have full equality in the United States? You seem to only want to understand certain realities and deny others.
Maybe you and pride and soul can come up with a coherent agenda u want the NAACP to present to its members. However, don't forget not all Blacks think the NAACP is relevant.
I get it, blacks vs gays is bad for business. my problem is with people that act as if what they are doing is constructive and then implicate the truth on behalf of fallacy or worse yet conjecture. you yourself are guilty of oversimplification if not false dichotomy.
then, there is where the rubber hits the road. not all the people blogging believe in what they are typing as seen in the lack of affirmative discourse and appropriation. This leaves me thinking that many just have a point to prove at the cost of the integrity of whatever aspect of black culture we are dumping on. I hope you don't expect me to just let you do it in the name of some far fetched attempt at unanimity.
I do want to address the religious factor for the time being.
If the anti-gay black churches (and not every black church is anti-gay) want to be a player in the political process then they need to be criticized proportionately when they publically advocate those positions.
Just as the Mormon, Catholic, and evangelical churches are criticized.
That an anti-gay church happens to also be a "black church" does not give it a pass.
One thing the some people within Black community fail to understand (and I'm partly expanding on what Alvin kind of touched on earlier) is that our people at times unconsciously place GLBTQ people of color into a position where they have to pledge their allegiance to one entity while sacrificing the other in order to gain the community‘s acceptance. Either you embrace your “blackness†or your sexuality; but you cannot do both. This feeds into the levels of homophobia that runs rampant in our community as well as the “don’t tell, don’t discuss†attitude many Blacks adopt when dealing with issues pertaining to sexuality as a whole.
Even now, instead of getting to the core discussion of the community at large expanding our minds to embrace the idea of equality for our GLBTQ people (which INCLUDES people of color as well), it appears that cannot discussed candidly unless we re-acknowledge: [racism, violence, unemployment, etc., etc, etc,] first, then if the community has time COULD possibly “entertain†a few GLBTQ issues in at their convenience (provided they don’t step “out of lineâ€).
justice
Black people are not natural allies of the gay rights movement, stating it ad nauseum does not make it so.. We will not be shamed, harassed or belittled because of our religion, faith or differing views from gay people. Name calling...."homophobe, bigot."..contempt for our churches (baby jeebus), or insults to our intelligence will not force us to take up the cause for gay rights and suddenly decide that the most important thing in our lives is to overturn DODT and DOMA. We will choose our own causes and fight our battles. It is our right.
Why they get Black gay people to try to shame and harrass Black people seems silly. It is like republicans putting up Michael Steele as a Black person we should accept.
@ Tanya: Black people (to my knowledge) have organizations and avenues to have any additional issues addressed that pertains to "civil rights" that have yet to be conquered. To my knowledge there but a few minor issues (if you want to categorize it into the civil rights tent) that could be addressed. If its a major issue to you, become engaged, make some noise, allow your voice to be heard. Evidentially if these "issues" aren't addressed to the level your liking, then you may want to take a step back to see if its pertinent to the progression of our people as a whole. We as a people have largely fought to obtain equality under the law that the GLBTQ community has yet to achieve. It would be logical to create allies in this community and encourage those who share commonalities within the multi-faceted layers of discrimination both communities posses. The history and struggles are unparallel (a point that has been proven time and time again), although the effects of discrimination hold common bonds.
Resistance to the obvious in the attempt to uphold a “our struggle wasn’t the same†mindset produces nothing substantial for the Black Community to build on.
So, what can we get gather from this?
Yet we have GLBTQ people of color who live, suffer, and have even died due to the oppressive nature this country's stance anti-gay ideology has embraced while our people watch in nonchalance. We literally turn a blind eye to Black victims of anti-gay hostility and violence because some adopt the notion their demise was somehow justified because they were “living in sinâ€. If we as a people who’ve long since adopted the mindset of: “Doing unto others as we would we have them do unto usâ€, it’s very telling what we as a race must think of OURSELVES when engaging in topics like this with lackluster approach and apathy towards a resolution. What confuses me is when people who hold similar above views as a means to justify the unwillingness of supporting the equality of THEIR OWN PEOPLE; why they then would “question†those who don’t understand the logic in behind their refusal to live by the quote I just mentioned, yet claim that the religion (or doctrine) they espouse is grounded on the very same principle.
Yes, you have the right to choose your battles. How troubling it is that because of hostility and fear many of the choices perpetuates the division and strife amongst ourselves.
Were those people who were brutally murdered in NOLA after Katrina, were they gay? Were they shot down in a manner that would constitute a war crime because they were gay? No, they were Black and that was enough.
It is not about choosing battles. You need to get past all of that. It is about identifying a problem that affects an entire community for their race alone.
All groups that suffer from oppression must stand together against the common oppressor. The common oppressor is the Republican party, owned by the oligarchy, and voted in by the hate filled deluded retrogressive haters, who respond so willingly to the constant barrage of hate propaganda.
It isn't that we are like you. It isn't that gays are like blacks. It isn't that we have suffered the same, we haven't. Every groups struggle is different, and every person's struggle is different. That isn't the point.
The point is that they are the same. The racists who fought to deny your rights decades ago are just like the homophobes that now fight to deny ours. They used religion then, saying god put the different races on different continents for a reason, and that as the decendants of Cain, blacks were inferior. They use religion now, using outdated Leviticus passages to keep others from being recognized as good-meaning human beings. They used fear then, saying, "keep our women safe." They use fear now, saying, "keep our children safe." They used a sense of tradition then, saying the country on their way of life was threatened if they shared their schools, sat beside you on the bus. They use tradition now, saying that merely sharing a legal institution of marriage with us cheapens their own.
We should not be allies because our struggles or are suffering are the same. We should be allies because our enemies are the same.
gay people are people
marriage is a national "liberty"
said liberty does not undermine interests of the state
blacks are people
voting is a national liberty
said liberty does not undermine interests of the state
Please let me know what the LGBT groups are doing about this CIVIL RIGHTS issue. You know the CIVIL RIGHTS gay groups claim to want for EVERYONE.
I am also waiting for the baggers to respond because they are screaming about rights just as insanely as the gay groups.
We are progressives.
That means we value empathy and fairness.
Everyone doesn't have to get out there and participate--but they ought not to obstruct the cause of seeking equal rights for all.
To
Wealth, in an of itself, is no virtue. No community in America is wealthy in the way that Black communities are because no one has fought harder for its right to be recognized as human beings and citizens of this country as Black Americans have.
Note that not many Black people are of the Catholic faith. I can assure you that we would never tolerate Black children being subjected to that kind of serial abuse.
Lots of poor immigrants come to America. Indians (yours truly included), Chinese, Koreans and Hispanics . They were also subject to legal discrimination and didn't even have the safety in numbers that the black community offered. And yet, one generation on their kids are much better off than their parents. Why? Literacy!!
I don't know whether literacy is prized or not in the black community. I'm not a member. But I do know that it isn't prevalent. Because I learned statistics and averages.
Put it this way, if you've ever been slighted because of skin color, religion, gender or sexual orientation, disability, etc., it is discrimination. There is no other word for it. It is what Dr. King, John Lewis, Medgar Evers fought against with the help of Bayard Rustin. Look him up. You might be surprised.
Get over your pettiness people and let's come together. The nastiness of the political climate alone should be enough to make folk want to leave their biases at the door and do what is right.
And for everyone's information, I'm a straight gal of color who isn't threatened by those that are gay.
Put it this way once again, if it isn't threatening my food, clothing, housing, transportation, healthcare and education I don't have a problem with it.
Just get together people.
Even sadder is that while trying to maintain the “racism trumps _(insert word here)_†argument is that repetitiously debating this one point of view hinders the prospect of equality for all in future generations. We CANNOT change the past, although we CAN acknowledge AND learn from it.
However, the REFUSAL to reinvest the seed of equality that’s been planted from prior struggles because certain events that preceded hasn’t been “recognized†to a desired level of satisfaction sends a resounding message that speaks more from a position of pomposity rather than inclusion.
This is the reason [as I previously mentioned] I feel no other community or group of people can mediate between the two sides better than the Black GLBTQ community exclusively.
WE are the ones who can effectively communicate to the Black community “IF†we are willing to do so. Though ultimately we are caught between this war of both worlds, we cannot afford to continue to see ourselves in a state of perpetual victimization.
I don't mean more in the terms of material wealth, but doing right by people and helping each other out. I could also add in learning more about the world besides your own neighborhood. There is no excuse. There are libraries and the internet.
We don't want to do right by each other in the general sense let alone anything else. We don't even want to extend a hand to our lesbian and gay brothers and sisters in their struggle for equality which is petty.
We got this attitude that if we ignore something it will go away. Or 'my struggle is greater than yours" attitude as you stated. It hasn't worked for the myriad of problems that we have. It is like we don't never want to talk about it, like it is a shrub that needs pruning, but you just don't want to deal with.
I hope the black gays and lesbians can serve as a bridge between the black community as a whole and the larger gay and lesbian community in order to create a bond that will be felt in all social realms. One place the two groups as a whole could be a formidable together is at the voting box. But everyone has to work together first.
I don't think this is a good approach. I'm not a gay man so I don't know what your experience was with religion, but the church isn't the place where I witnessed violence and bigotry. It was the place where I found peace from it.
I'm not going to defend religion, but I am suggesting that it would not be a winning argument for most religious people given they experience the church as a sanctuary.