The Israel I Was Fighting For

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Posted May 13, 2008 | 12:37 PM (EST)




Sixty years ago, when I was fighting for Israel during its war of independence, I won a lot of respect. Now many of my liberal colleagues, including Jewish ones, raise their eyebrows. They hoped for an Israel that is citadel of individual rights, a land in which social justice prevails as laid out by the Prophets, and a peace-making nation--a sort of a Switzerland in the Middle East, only more enlightened.

These liberals are ready to trade land (that is, Israeli land) for peace; a fine idea--if peace can be had. They claim that they 'know' (especially if they toured the Holy Land for a week or more) that when Hamas states that it seeks the destruction of Israel, that this is merely rhetorical stance and nothing more than posturing to improve its hand in the forthcoming peace deal. They are sure that if Israeli leaders would only agreed to sit down and talk with Hamas (and Syria and maybe even Iran), differences could be worked out. If not, they maintain, the U.S. must "lean" more on Israel.

About the last thing my colleagues want to hear about is 1948, when seven Arab armies invaded the day-old Israel. They know little about the large numbers of Israelis killed during the War of Independence, and the still larger number who were maimed and wounded. (My Pal Mach unit started with eleven hundred members and end up with four hundred).

During the Six Day War, when Israel again repelled its attackers with great courage and sacrifice, my colleagues still congratulated me; they still could take some pride in victorious Jewish fighters. Today, Israeli incursions into Gaza, the oppressive occupation of the West Bank, the killing of innocent Palestinian civilians, are viewed as akin to Bush's invasion of Iraq, or worse. When I now recount the days in Jerusalem when Jordanian tanks were closing in and we had nothing that could stop them, and suggest that the same holds now for the missiles Syria, Hezbollah and Iran are readying, my many liberals are quick to suggest that if Israel would make peace with the Palestinians, all the other nations in the Middle East would fall in line. "The road to Tehran [Beirut, Damascus, Ryadh] runs through Jerusalem" is their favorite cliché.

Above all, they want for Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders, not merely to stop the oppressive occupation but also to ensure that Israel will remain a democratic state. They hold that as long as Israel contains within its borders a large and rapidly multiplying Palestinian population, to become a majority in the near future, Israel will be forced to give up either its democratic nature or-- its Jewishness. Given that they were never subject to a mortar barrage, or had to take out a machine gun nest, my colleagues pay little attention to the small number of days--or should I say hours?--that Israel would survive if the West Bank would become a much extended version of rocket-launching Gaza.

Moreover, for many liberals, withdrawing to the 1967 borders is but the first step. Their next concern, very much echoing other multicultural agendas, is for Israel to cease being a Jewish state; to become a state in which the Arab citizens of Israel (about 17% of the total population) have the exactly the same rights as Jews--and the state is culturally neutral. Never mind that as it is Arabs in Israel already have many more rights--de jure and de facto--than they have in any Arab state. Israeli Arabs vote freely and are represented in the Knesset by their elected officials. Muslim religious functionaries are free to arrange all personal matters (marriage, divorce, burial, etc.) as they wish, just as Jews are. Still many liberals want to strip Israel from any remaining Jewish features. They are so inclined because in their mind this is what a full respect for the rights of Arab Israelis commands and because these liberals are mainly secularists and deeply offended by the fundamentalist Rabbis who do command undue influence and a bunch of privileges in Israel. These liberals ignore that separation of state and religion is largely a French-American ideal, not established in most democracies, and that all nations have some kind of cultural identity, indeed often one that has a religious tinge. (For instance, in many democratic countries, only Christian holidays are national holidays).

All this makes me reexamine what I did fight for (and would again), why my son volunteered to serve in the Israeli Air Force, and why my granddaughter just completed her basic training. The need for Jews to have their own state is not smaller today than it was in 1948, given the very widespread anti-Semitism in the four corners of the earth. Moreover, by my light, Jews have the same rights as other ethnic groups all over the world, from Romanians to Indonesians, from Jamaicans to the people of East Timor, to embed their community in state, and for the Jewish state to maintain some, already very attenuated, cultural identity.

I strongly favor the kind of peace deal with the Palestinians that Ehud Barak championed and for which Yitzhak Rabin died. However, such a deal must entail stopping attacks on Israel and threatening its very existence. If not, I fear, and I know what I am writing about, there will be many more casualties on both sides, all God's children, all people who deserve to live in peace.

Amitai Etzioni served in the Pal Mach in 1946-48 and in the Israeli army from 1948-50. His first book (in Hebrew) is called A Diary of a Commando Soldier (Available online in at http://dspace.wrlc.org/handle/1961/137 Search: "Diary of a Commando"). He can be contacted at comnet@gwu.edu

 
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The cause of creating a racially pure homeland for one privileged group at the expense of others can never be made just, no matter how hard you're willing to fight for it.

I'm aghast that you seem to think that on a progressive board you're around people likely to praise you for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:41 PM on 05/14/2008

First of all HuffPo is not what I'd call a progressive board.
No one has been forced to give up land for Israel to exist. Land was purchased from absentee landowners, no one forced them to sell. There were some limited expulsions in 1948 following the War of Independence, but nothing on the scale of expulsions by Arab nations.
Israel is our home land. It is the only place on earth where I can be a Jew free of the worry of having a government turn against me simply because I am a Jew. It is the only place on earth a Jew can feel free.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:44 PM on 05/14/2008
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how about the murder of Count Folke Bernadotte,wouldn't you like credit and respect for that too?or how about labeling him a nazi sympathizer while in europe he was considered a righteous gentile.should we congratulate you on 60 years of ethnic cleansing and migrational genocide?you invaded someone else's country and drove them out.guess what?that's been going on over there for 30,000 years when cro-magnums forced the neanderthals to flee for their lives.I'm sorry your scorched earth policies toward the indeginous peoples hasn't worked out as well as you might have hoped,so I'll leave you with God's warnings to King David:"You Can Keep What You Have But You Shall Never Know Peace From The Sword!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:14 PM on 05/14/2008

It seems you believe the best thing to happen would be for Israel to be destroyed and the Jews living there to be wiped off the face of the earth. I believe that serves to invalidate your opinion on Israel.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:36 PM on 05/14/2008

Mr.Etzioni:

I find your article to be revisionist, factually and intellectually dishonest.

First, as a Jewish man of European decendents, you were not fighting for 'independence' as Zionist propagandists have re-titled Israel; you were an imperialist terrorist killing innocent Palestinian civilians and stealing their nation and home.

Your' bizarre statement of 'anti-semitism in every corner of the world' is shocking; do you truly believe Mongolians hate jews? Either you believe this over statement of paranoia or you are knowingly exaggerating to manufacture a threat to continue justifying Israeli war crimes.

The facts are so utterly different then what you present;a few weeks ago, Israel evicted dozens of Israeli Arabs from their homes to give the land to French Jews. As for you false asertion that Arab Christians & Muslims are equal; that is just blatantly false: seperate roads, seperate legal system, different licence plates to identify one as Jew or non-Jew, confiscation of Palestinian owned land, its illegal for Palestinians to marry Israelis, rabbis and Likud members regularily call for the Transference of Palestinians to other nations etc.

Yes, it's obvious that you favor the Barack model of 'peace' because it contains no peace; it gives Israel everything and the Palestinians nothing, maintaining the current horrow show of death and murder and fear and occupation and illiteracy and malnutrition and humiliation and false imprisonment and children being shot for throwing stones and Jewish settlers terrorizing and brutalizing an unarmed vulnerable population.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:31 AM on 05/14/2008

In 1948 Israel was not invaded by "palestinians", but by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, and other Arab nations.
Israel is surrounded by nations committed to the destruction of the Jewish state. Several are still at war with Israel.
What is obvious is your desire to see Israel destroyed and the people of Israel once again spread around the world in a modern day diaspora.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:50 PM on 05/14/2008

Mr. Etzioni,

How can you be proud of a country that has bulldozed to death one US peace activist, and shot one US and one UK peace activist in the head at point blank range (killing one of them and maiming the other), and drops 2,000 lb bombs on apartments full of children.

How can you be proud of a country based on religious/ethnic domination by one group?

And how can you be proud of a country which uses tactics developed by the Waffen SS in WWII against the Jewish Warsaw uprising?

Just curious.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:05 AM on 05/14/2008

I wish God would come down pick up Israel and put it next to Florida. The world would be a much happier place.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:08 AM on 05/14/2008
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Dear Professor Etzioni,

With this essay/post you have earned my respect, it is straight up and straight forward. I like it much better than when you try to pull the wool over my eyes with all that sophism. Agape.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:46 AM on 05/14/2008

I applaud you, sir, for the courageous defense of your country. I further applaud you for the behavior of your children in preparing to defend Israel. I served 26 years in the Marines, and my son is now in Navy Recruit Training, to defend his country.
Pay no attention to the vitriol in some of the posts. Those people have swallowed the anti-Semitic line, hook, line, and sinker!
Semper fi

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 05/13/2008

Articles in the U.S. press discussing what are Israel's options, what can they do, are mostly designed to decieve the public into thinking this is "our" problem for "us" to solve. It isn't. Good luck to Israel whatever they do, but stop sending my money to that country.

Our politicians send billions of dollars of our money to Israel every year and Israel takes a big chunk of that "aid" and launders it back into the U.S. to pay our politicians bribes. It is a corrupt system of theft, fraud, and bribery.

We sent $10 billion to Israel last year, money that we could have used right here in the U.S. We could have re-stocked our food banks, extended unemployment insurance, provided healthcare to sick people, refurbished our schools, sent our children to college. But instead, the money was stolen from the taxpayers and sent to Israel.

All money to Israel be cut off. The Israelis have a higher standard of living than is enjoyed by many Americans.

And finally, if the author and his family are citizens of the U.S., why didn't they serve in the U.S. military?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:29 PM on 05/14/2008

Well, I guess you have every right to try to cast the apartheid state you helped create in the best light possible. However, sooner or later, reality catches up with every racist and unjust regime. Sooner or later, change does come.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:43 PM on 05/13/2008

The problem is you could not be more wrong.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:44 PM on 05/13/2008

There will likely never be real peace there. And I also believe that that conflict will ultimately ignite WWIII.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:53 PM on 05/13/2008

Why does Israel have to keep apologizing for its existence?

Why haven't the Palestinians made a good faith attempt to cut a deal and build a peace?

What did Egypt and Jordan see that Syria has yet to?

Why haven't the oil-rich Arab states ever been asked to help resettle the Palestinians? (Sorry, Saudi Arabia, paying the families of homicide bombers doesn't count.)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:51 PM on 05/13/2008

While I almost completely agree with Amitai posts, why should the Palestinians be resettled outside of Palestine/Israel?

I believe both sides have understandable positions. The Jewish people have a right to exist, and in the Israeli state, which regardless of its conception, is all they have. The Palestinian people have the right to live without fear from occupation and oppression. That oppression in the form of punishing the collective for the actions of a few. Most Palestinians and Israelis want peace, but it takes politicians on all sides to stand up bravely for what's right. I was a great fan of Rabin for what he sought to do. I almost cried the night he died, because I saw that his dream was also likely dead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:48 PM on 05/13/2008

I did not say the Palestinians SHOULD be resettled outside; I'm asking where has been the world pressure PRIOR to today to resettle in place, per other world conflicts.

Here forward, the whole issue of "right-of-return" is in play. And why shouldn't it be? The Jews have the Law of Return -- for individuals who've never been anywhere near Israel, but are Jewish.

I would rather see a resettlement-for-peace deal than a land-for-peace deal, even understanding the relative birth rates. With the following caveat: resettlement from Lebanon and Jordan to the West Bank and Gaza (with some border tweaking both) into an autonomous Palestinian state.

And isn't that the gist of the Carter / Barack / Arafat framework? When time passes and BOTH sides tire of 60+ years of unsatisfactory equilibrium, that is what will be returned to. In the meantime, Israel welcomes Russians, and Arabs have kids.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 PM on 05/13/2008

Hamas said it recognized Israel's right to exist within the last month (Google it) and Israel blew them off.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:56 AM on 05/14/2008

Not quite.

"The folly of believing that if only Israel would make certain concessions, all this could be resolved was inadvertently made clear recently, thanks to Jimmy Carter. The former president, seen by many as pro-Palestinian despite his claims to be neutral, met with the leadership of Hamas and afterwards declared the group ready, if certain conditions were met, to accept Israel"s right to live in peace. Hamas, however, soon called a press conference to reject Carter"s interpretation of their talks, saying the terrorist group was only prepared to agree to a 10-year ceasefire, and then only if Israel retreated to the 1967 borders and allowed a full right of return for all Palestinians.

That last demand, of course, is a complete deal-breaker. Hamas knows that. But it"s worth noting that, in essence, Hamas said Israel had to bow to ALL its demands and, in return, the Israelis would get a whole decade free from attacks."
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Opinion/1055477.html

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:09 AM on 05/14/2008

You can not be more hopelessly wrong. Carter said that hamas indicated that they may recognise Israel 4 hours later Hamas released statement saying that they will never recognise Israel, Google it...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:18 AM on 05/14/2008

Did you say resettle? Resettle where? Resettle away from their lands? You so ignorant get some education on how Israel was created.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:51 AM on 05/14/2008

Resettle where? In my original context, I was referring to previously -- over the past 60 years. How about where they are have been all along? How about better integrated into their albeit reluctant host countries?

Looking ahead, how about in the West Bank or Gaza, perhaps with sharing Jerusalem attached?

How about inside Israel proper... subject to working out a mutually acceptable PEACE with Israel, perhaps with significant monetary compensation?

Let's not get into a pissing match over who is more ignorant. I concede. You win.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:16 PM on 05/14/2008

Egypt and Jordan receive LOTS of US aid. (Mubarak is no less a dictator that Hussein ever was... and lets face it... Jordan (and KSA) are monarchies... not exactly democratic, no?)

Syria and other ME countries did not sell out the Palestinians for US aid.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:23 AM on 05/14/2008

Gee, I never thought of Syria as the noble one before. ;-)

And, btw, Jordan didn't need US Aid to part ways with the Palestinians. Google "Black September." King Hussein killed around 10,000 Palestinians before kicking the PLO and Arafat to Lebanon. And look what nice guests they've been.

Last, what's wrong with US Aid to buy peace? I prefer that to sending troops.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 PM on 05/14/2008

ReasonIsMyReligion: "Why haven't the oil-rich Arab states ever been asked to help resettle the Palestinians?"

What a vulgar and offensive question.

Here is your answer: Because once the Palestinians are absorbed completely by other nations, the genocide of Palestinians and ethnic cleansing of Palestine will have been complete.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:39 AM on 05/14/2008

What a vulgar and offensive response.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:22 PM on 05/14/2008

I understand why Jews felt the only way to have real security was through the creation of a Jewish state. And I understand why the UN approved the creation of Israel.

What I never understood is why anyone is suprised at the Arab reaction. And I don't think groups like Hamas want peace, but something I've never heard in all of this is compensation in lieu of right of return.

Israel doesn't help matters when it constantly expands its borders creating new facts on the ground.

What would happen if the international community dictated a solution, calling for Israel to withdraw to the pre 67 borders, creating a Palestine with the remaining land, constructing a wall if need be and militarily separating the two peoples, and attacking if necessary those who commit violence? What would happen if to pay for the creation of a Palestine the European community funded it?

I understand why a Jewish democracy can make a strong case for being unique, but the West failed to compensate the Arabs for their losses. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference, but maybe it would.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:18 PM on 05/13/2008

Good approach. I also think the international community did a terrible job taking care of the Palestinians. They live under the pleasure of the Israeli state. Israel can cut off any and all of their basic necessities. That is not right. The best defense for a secure Jewish state, is a secure democratic Palestinian state.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 PM on 05/13/2008

A "Palestinian" state exists and has since 1922. It is currently called Jordan.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:19 AM on 05/15/2008

It is a misrepresentation of fact to say Israel is constantly expanding its borders. The facts are quite different. Since 1967 when Israel took so much land, legally, in the course of a defensive war it has given up land, with no peace as promised by the Arab nations.
Arab land was purchased during the First Aliya, largely from absentee Arab landowners. Arabs stopped selling land when outside Arab entities began to protest the number of Jewish settlers returning to eretz Israel. After the War of Independence in 1948, when Israel was attacked by her neighbors, a number of ARabs left on their own and a few were forced to leave. But the number of Arabs forced to leave is much smaller in numbers than several forced deportations by Arab nations of Jews and of Palestinians.
The bottom line to this is simple, folks demand an Israeli withdrawal to the pre-67 borders, which they promise will bring about peace. It just isn't so. If such a claim was true why did the Arab nations attack in 1967? Why did the PLO attack again and again? The answer is simple, the Arab nations surrounding Israel are not willing to grant Israel the right to exists. Yet so many on HuffPo attack israel as the bad actor.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:04 PM on 05/13/2008

Bubba,

Look at the number of settlements built in the West Bank and tell me Israel isn't expanding its borders. Even Bush talks about the settlements referring to their existence as the reality on the ground.

I'm not throwing stones only at Israel, but it has shown zero good faith when it comes to settlement construction. And since Israel has the power, it's pretty obvious the Palestinians haven't increased the size of the land they hold.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:32 AM on 05/14/2008

And Bubba,

The bigger point I was trying to make is monetary compensation to the Palestinians in return for right of return. Why isn't that part of the equation? I'm all for a Jewish homeland, but let's be serious. We in the West did good authorizing its creation, but we also did bad screwing the Palestinians out of their land.

Why aren't Germany and Italy paying the Palestinians? Why wasn't Bavaria made the Jewish people's new country?

Arabs Muslims have a mixed history of dealing with Jews, but they weren't the promulgators of the Holocaust.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:37 AM on 05/14/2008

Did you say took land legally? This is the kind of warped mentally most of you have. No wonder America believed it could go to Iraq and take land "legally". Is it wrong then for Iraqis to fight and prevent Americans taking land "legally" in Iraq? You don't learn your lessons well.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 AM on 05/14/2008

If the landlords were 'absen't... who did the Zionists pay for the land???

It is a fact that SOME land was sold to settling Zionists, but that is not the issue. The issue is how you can dispossess an entire population. Without compensation.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:25 AM on 05/14/2008
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American citizens must begin immediately rebuking false statements and lies such as Iran wanting "Isreal or Jewish Wiped Off the Map", this has been adequately debunked that President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad had never uttered these words. It was a twist of an Iranian news report meant to tweak Western Media that were otherwise silent about Iranian affairs and concerns.

Such as posted earlier saying... "That being said, the radical Islamic agenda of obliterating Israel is a very real one and only fools like Jimmy Carter ignore it at their peril",or the "I doubt it is possible without the intellectual death of the ideas of Hamas and other organizations which still believe that Israel can be wiped out and history restored." In these statements the people are aware that it is the Zionist/Regime being referred to, and not the religious Jewish that speak out for their Arab neighbor's rights and in fact would in remain if peace were allowed.

When anyone says the President of Iran wants to "Wipe Israel Off the Map", a Western idiom, advise the person that they are in error and slandering the Iran President. It being no excuse that Western-Gov's have deliberately used this same and intentional propaganda, says much instead about the people we have in leadership today.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:56 PM on 05/13/2008

Brave and good essay, Ami.

Utlimately, Israel must do as her people will. There truly is no other course. Perhaps their voters will be right, perhaps not. But the decision is - wonderfully and dangerously - theirs alone to make.

Tangentially, the same applies to Iraq. Their decisions, both right ones and wrong ones, are theirs alone to make. Our presence there exacerbates divisions within her. Our absence will enable a sense of nationalism that is sorely needed there now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:52 PM on 05/13/2008

Mr. Etzioni,

What you fail to address is that a violently enforced colonial settler movement is inexcusable under any circumstances. It would predictably cause violence in any people who were subjected to it. It is utterly morally reprehensible and indefensible.

The AMERICA that our forefathers fought for and gave birth to is based upon principles which are diametrically opposed to the very idea of violent colonization. We fought a revolution against the British over taxation. We fought a civil war to end slavery. We have worked through the civil rights movement to this day in order to ensure that all Americans are treated equally. How do you think we would respond to being treated with the same brutality that the Palestinians have been subjected to? Treatment that they have endured over the last 4 decades and right up until this very moment, as more illegal settlements are being built, against the wishes of the the US, the rest of the entire world, and certainly the Palestinians.

There is NO excuse for the settlements. They are illegal, and they are not simply condemned by "liberals" in this country, they are condemned by virtually every single other nation in the world, as evidenced by the many UN votes on such matters.

They are even despised by a majority of the Israeli population.

The settlements must go not just because they needlessly engender terror and violence against Israel and the US but because they are morally inexcusable and serve no peaceful purpose.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 05/13/2008

" What you fail to address is that violently enforced colonial settler movement is inexcusable under any circumstances." Inexcusable any place but the good old U.S. of A., where violently enforced colonial settlement is what formed this country. A bit of a double standard there, give your land back to the native Americans before you spout off. Yes we fought a war with the British over taxation and a civil war to end slavery, but we also fought a bunch of wars with the natives and raped and killed them and took their land, technically all of America outside of the reservations is an "illegal settlement". An American lecturing an Israeli about the moral wrongs of illegal settlement just doesn't hold water.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 PM on 05/13/2008

I hope you understand that what you are refering to would NEVER fly today. This nation was also built on the shoulders of slaves, but I would hope that if Israel decided to actually enslave the Palestinians, you would not refer to that as something that would be embraced by this nation any more than any more than a violently enforced colonial occupation should be. Both are absolutely wrong and should ALWAYS be met with disgust and resistance by all responsible nations.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:47 AM on 05/14/2008

Absolutely!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:26 AM on 05/14/2008

It always amazes me when folks like you call for an end to the settlements. You argue no Jews should be allowed to live in the territories. It only follows if you believe that sort of discrimination you must argue for the removal of all Arabs from ertez Israel. And remember this, until 1967 Jews were prevented from worshipping our holiest sites. But under Israeli control all religions have access to their places of worship.
You say there is no reason to have the settlements, but you are consistent in only one thing, your ability to be wrong. And in this case you are again wrong. Israel has given up most of the land taken in 1967, including oil fields that served to provide Israel with most of the oil it needed. And what peace has resulted? None. So, if Israel feels it wants settlements it has every right to have them.
Here is the question you never answer. How will a return to the pre-1967 borders bring about peace? If that was true, it isn't, why was Israel attacked by armies from a number of Arab nations in 1967? Why was the PLO so busy attacking Israel prior to the 1967 war? Here's a hint. The borders are a propaganda issue and nothing more. Arabs do not want peace with Israel, they want Israel to fall apart piece by piece. And you deluded thinking would make such a thing possible.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 PM on 05/14/2008
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You are in favor of a deal with the Palestinians. The problem is that everyone is in favor of a deal. How do you make it happen? Israel's current methodology has inflamed the opposition to the point that 1 Billion Muslims oppose it. What is your strategy to mitigate this opposition (hatred)? Please say it is something different than to continue beating them until they quit. They may stop but they will never quit. Take it from an Irishman, I've been there.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 05/13/2008
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