Hillary Clinton once again touted her foreign-policy experience in Thursday night's debate with Barack Obama, and once again found herself flat-footed by a very real instance of her own poor judgment. Iraq was the topic that Obama picked up on, for understandable electoral reasons -- her willingness to give George Bush the authority to invade back in 2002, and her refusal to acknowledge since then that she made a mistake.

But Hillary (unnoticed by most debate watchers, to be sure) also made a big hash of a much more immediate foreign-policy issue, Kosovo's declaration of independence.

In the immediate wake of the declaration last Sunday -- energetically embraced by the Bush administration -- Senator Clinton put out a statement calling it "a historic step that will allow the people of Kosova to finally live in their own democratic state".

She went on: "It will allow Kosova and Serbia to finally put a difficult chapter in their history behind them and move forward."

By the time she took the stage at the University of Texas, though, it was more than apparent that her vision of peace for the Balkans was, to coin a phrase, a big fairy-tale. Enraged Serbians -- now the disempowered minority in Albanian-majority Kosovo -- had set fire to the US embassy in the Serb capital Belgrade, besieged the British embassy, thrown stones and bottles at United Nations peacekeepers in Kosovo itself and attacked two guard stations in the ethnically tense north of the fledgling new state. So much for putting the past behind them.

Nowhere in her statement did she acknowledge that Kosovo is far from a viable democracy -- the writer John Laughland, writing in The Guardian this week, characterized it as a "mafia state" and a "sump of corruption and poverty" -- or that there is something clearly anomalous about the United States and the European Union recognizing the independence of a country, when that independence is vociferously opposed by a minority group that can now expect some degree of discrimination if not outright hostility.

The fact that she referred to the new state as "Kosova", using the Albanian rather than the Serbian spelling, only reinforced her lack of understanding about the rage the declaration, and US support for it, was likely to cause among Serbs in both Kosovo and Serbia proper. In other words, her cheerleading for independence and democracy wasn't just naïve. It was also a provocation leading directly to the sort of violence we've now seen.

Granted, there is nothing simple about the Kosovo problem. There's an argument to be made that independence is preferable to the state of limbo the province has lived in since NATO forces ended the Serbs' iron-fisted repression of the Albanian population there in 1999. But certain things need to be acknowledged: the risk that this will set a precedent for other dissident minorities like the Basques in Spain, the risk that it will play into the hands of hardline nationalists in Serbia, who came within a whisker of capturing the presidency there last month, and the risk that it could provoke another bout of deadly violence 17 years after the old Yugoslavia first went into its death spiral. Hillary acknowledged none of that -- offering only a bland line about guaranteeing the rights of the Serb minority left in Kosovo.

Here, by contrast, is Obama's statement, put out at almost the same time as Hillary's. It's much closer to the mark:

Kosovo's independence is a unique situation resulting from the irreparable rupture Slobodan Milosevic's actions caused; it is in no way a precedent for anyone else in the region or around the world.


Kosovo's independence carries with it important responsibilities. The international community has devoted enormous resources to Kosovo's political, economic and social development for nearly a decade, with results not always meeting expectations. I hope that Kosovo's government and people act with urgency to ensure that Kosovo becomes a positive example of democratic governance and the rule of law...

You can read the rest here.

The Clintons have been tone-deaf on the Balkans before. In the first few days of Bill Clinton's presidency in 1993, he had a chance to end the war in Bosnia, then a few months old, and establish a multi-ethnic independent state made up of 10 autonomous provinces. This was the scenario successfully negotiated by Cyrus Vance, the former US secretary of state, and David Owen, the former British foreign secretary. All President Clinton needed to do was to pressure the last hold-out to an agreement, the leader of the Bosnian Muslims, and the war would have been over.

Instead, though, Clinton decided the Vance-Owen plan was a de facto capitulation to ethnic cleansing by the Serbs, encouraged the Bosnian Muslims not to sign, and vowed to set out on a whole new peace process.

Bad mistake. Soon, a whole new front in the war opened up, pitting the Muslims against the Croats, and the Bosnian morass continued for another blood-soaked two and a half years. The peace deal Clinton brokered in Dayton, Ohio in 1995 ended up being a far greater capitulation to ethnic cleansing than Vance-Owen ever was. (The best account of this can be found here.)

Is this the sort of experience Hillary hopes will persuade the people of Ohio and Texas to vote for her on March 4? If so, a quick history lesson the Balkans and its tragedies might not be out of place.


 
 

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Wow. This is a good catch on the Kosovo situation and it's a very good example of why Obama gets foreign policy and Hillary gets to make patriotic platitudes. Kosovo has been "leaning" toward independence for some time now. The international community has discouraged moves in that direction for a very specific reason.

Although the UN General Assembly called "self determination" of a people to form their own Nation one of the basic rights of man, the international community as a whole frowns on willy-nilly carving up of existing territories into new countries for obvious reasons. Should every American or African tribe have its own country simply because they consider themselves to be a separate people? Where would that end, in a million micro-sized states? Taken to its logical obsurdity, unchecked independence would be a bad thing.

Before the breakup of Yugoslavia, Kosovo was an "autonomous region" within the country. While acknowledging greater Yugoslavia as the State power, Kosovo had a great deal of freedom to set its own policy. Had Serbia proper decided to restore this status, Kosovo might still be Serbian territory. But Serbia, having lost the war in the aftermath of the breakup of Yugoslavia, wasn't willing to let go even that much power over what it sees as its territory. So, not surprisingly, Kosovo has taken the plunge to independence. It is also no surprise that the Serbs are pissed.

I saw this coming for the past year or so. Obama knows the score over Kosovo and he gets it because he is up on foreign policy issues. Hillary, on the other hand, seems to be up on "the message," just like Bush -- all platitudes and no substance. If I know more about foreign policy developments than the candidate who is touting HER foreign policy experience, guess who I am NOT voting for!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 PM on 02/25/2008

What is up with the fabricated Hillary Clinton international experience by some of these posters? Ironically, she calls Sen. Obama all talk, but she is projecting her own status as politician. She spent years on the Arms Services Committee, so it could look good on her resume, and look at the state of our Armed services, the National Guard, ammo, etc. She has done nothing for the military, her supporters should be embarrassed. Likewise, people in the military are threatened by them. Her husband, really did his best to weaken the military. And she has the nerve to be on the Arm Services Committee.
As for her international travels as a first lady. Sen. Clinton could have gained valuable experience with hler trips to the Balkans, but instead resorted to controlling her image and projecting what she thought might look good. Well before the Debate on Thursday, I posted, that Hillary Clinton would use Kosova has her past experience. Remember when she went To Macedonia? Hillary Clinton went to Macedonia and heard what was going on in Kosova, and did many photo ops, http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9905/14/kosovo.refugees/
She then proceeded to make her appearance at "a refugee camp so carefully scripted that Administration officials chose which refugees Mrs. Clinton would speak with, she commiserated with Kosovo's expelled masses."http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F01E7D9163EF936A25756C0A96F958260
Yes, she mentions this as her foreign policy experience.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2QQXReXzf8
As noted, previously, If I were her, I wouldn't be too proud at what was allowed to fester there. It still shows she could have gained valuable experience there but didn't. This crisis in the Balkans was padded down with make up. A hallmark of a lot of Clinton foreign policy "solutions" No doubt, all the scandals that happened during the 1996-1998 period didn't help resolve the problems of the world and distracted.
Hillary does not grasps the facts She might know detail and policy but she doesn't know how to put it into action. She has been given a great pass. In addition, her husbands administration failed to grasp the seriousness of terrorism, the Balkans, or even Rwanda. Yes, Terrorism, the USS Cole and the African Embassy bombings were an example. Hillary's own statement pertaining to Kosovo on Thursday, prior to the Embassy being rioted, shows her lack of.
Jump to Global trade and the economy, as Paul Craig Roberts notes, "Barack Obama has raised the issue of US job loss from US corporations moving operations abroad in order to lower their labor costs and, thereby, boost profits"...that "American hubris produces gigantic delusion not only among the people and the politicians but also among the economists. President Obama and his (possible) Secretary of the Treasury, Ralph Gomery, are our last best hopes."hhttp://www.counterpunch.org/roberts02232
008.html
Our global hegemony and strength, has been threatened on many fronts, most especially by China - whom the Clintons have encouraged and exacerbated their ties and weakened the US. After the Clintons, left office the US as a nation was weaker both militarily, administratively and morally. Hence 9/11 but on top of that the bad judgments by the Bush administration just highlighted the bad policies of the Clinton Administration , Who's kidding who here. Also, over the years with her authority and name recognition, she gave more legitimacy, to President Bush's failed. action. She has been given some of the greatest "passes" and "overlookings" in politics.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:48 PM on 02/24/2008

Hey out there!

Let's say a middle-aged man dropped his suitcase while running across an intersection. And out popped sex magazines and paraphernalia of every description.

How many Americans would be shocked to discover that the man was Bill Clinton?

I am tired of the tawdry, the soap opera and the personal issues that are part of the Hillary and "Bill in a China Shop" show.

Remember when certain sexual acts were not acceptable subjects when talking to strangers?

Remember when alone actually meant alone?

The trashing of the English language, the increasing coarseness of public discourse are all part of the Billary legacy.

When I see Barack and Michelle together, the love and respect is palpable.

When I see Hillary and "Bill in the China Shop" together I really do not know what I am seeing - what is palpable is the feeling of revulsion.

Please God or whoever is out there, deliver us from the Clintons, once and for all!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:10 PM on 02/23/2008

You may be right. There's love and respect between Michelle and Barak. But I could care less about how much they love or respect each other. I want some one who loves his country to be in the white house .. and all the time might I add, not just when their spouse are running for President as some put it "it is the first time in my adult life, I feel proud of my country". Again a pass from the media

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:49 AM on 02/24/2008

Ms. Obama and Senator Obama have both addressed this, and the media did not give it a pass, although it deserved one if anything did. They both explained that she was talking about the POLITICS of America in that statement, not about the country itself. Context is everything. If you want to understand what she meant, read it as "For the first time in my life I'm proud of the American political process." She's proud of the way the voters have responded to her husband, and, yes, she is proud of her husband. What a refreshing change!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:35 PM on 02/25/2008

This is what caught my attention in this article :" In the first few days of Bill Clinton's presidency in 1993, he had a chance to end the war in Bosnia, then a few months old, and establish a multi-ethnic independent state".. In the first few days!!! Boris Eltsin just took over in Russia from Gorbachev few months earlier and the Soviet Union was desintegrating. The first Bush with 12 years in the White house, and tons of years between ambassador to China, ambassador to the UN, CIA director etc.. didn't do anything about the war in the Balkans for a year after it broke out .. (the 2nd Bush who beat an Obama supporter in 2004 didn't do anything about Al-Qaeda after 8 months in office and even after being warned of an imminent attack from Al-Qaeda!!) and mister Andrew Gumbell wants Bill Clinton to end the war in his first few days in office !!! hmmm .. very objective mister Gumbell

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:43 AM on 02/24/2008

That's just a little harsh. Gumbell wasn't saying he WANTED Bill Clinton to have ended the Balkan war: he said Bill Clinton missed a chance to end the Balkan war. Big difference.

One thing is certain. Hillary is correct in stating that we should be looking for a candidate who is ready on Day One. World events don't wait for the new president to get his/her bearings. Stuff happens, and sometimes it happens fast.

Personally, I think the person more likely to be on the ball when that stuff happens is Barack Obama, because he's demonstrated an understanding of the complexities of the world that Hillary has only tried to nuance and "message." I will be proud to cast my vote for him in November and I will be proud to call him Mr. President.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:41 PM on 02/25/2008

HONEST ABE
Your Words " his words- PLAGIARISM: be honest (check out the words)
http://www.youtube.com/user/wtmv

Obama reneges on his word to use public funding
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080215/ap_on_el_pr/mccain

People in glass houses: was it poor judgment? You be the judge: Obama wrote letters for Rezko a friend , who was indicted last fall on federal charges
http://mediamatters.org/items/200706140007

Obama"s Iraq Platoon Story Spin at the Austin Tx debate:
http://southernledger.com/ap/98571/Fact_Check_Obamas_Iraq_Platoon_Story

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:01 PM on 02/23/2008

Remember, the killings and atrocities didn't precede the bombings, they followed them. Even Wesley Clark predicted the violence as soon as the bombing started. In his NY Times book review of Clark's book in 2001, Michael Ignatieff summarizes Clark as saying that the primary motive for the bombing was not human rights violations but Milosevic's defiance that "undermined American and European diplomacy." Some reason for bombing and opening the door to the violence that followed, huh? Would you like some more of this sort of policy in 2009?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:12 PM on 02/23/2008

Interesting. Just the other day, Clark said on MSNBC that the bombing was all about human rights. Of course he was taking advantage of the street unrest in Belgrad.

This is typical Clinton Administration double talk and their unwillingness to accept responsibility for their indiscrimanate bombings.

Hillary was a proud part of this hypocrisy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:23 PM on 02/23/2008

Maybe you haven't heard but Slobodan Milošević was indicted by the UN's International Criminal at the Hague for crimes against humanity, including those perpetrated under his leadership in Croatia and Bosnia prior to the Kosovo crisis.

So regardless of what Michael Ignatieff says Wesley Clark said the humanitarian case for intervention in 1999 is IMHO unanswerable.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:09 PM on 02/23/2008

"Serbs are a minimal group in Kosovo"
This is true because Albanians have ten or
eleven children.Can they give them education
or anything?We will end up paying for them
because of this failed policy.
Hillary can spend a lot of time with Madeline Albright and reflect after her
humiliating loss.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:21 PM on 02/23/2008


The figures I saw published before the NATO ethnic cleansing operation in 1999 was:

about 1.6 million total inhabitants in Kosovo of which about 300,000 serbs plus some various gypsies and other minorities and an Albanian majority of about 1.2 million.

I believe the European Union ethnic cleansing operation with NATO basically expelled about 200,000 Serbs leaving the current estimate of about 100,000 mainly in Northern Serbia because it is unsafe to live among Albanian Muslims in south. Gypsies have essentially been exterminated by NATO.

Is above correct? it is hard to get accurate information because I don't think EU likes to publish it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:43 PM on 02/23/2008

The information you are giving is not correct. According to the CIA Factbook, 228,000 Serbs and Roma fled Kosovo in 1999. Preceding this, in 1998, Milosevic began ethnic cleansing of Albanians from Kosovo. That prompted Nato to step in to stop the cleansing. Serbs and Roma fled afterward. My sense is that they took the opportunity to flee while the getting was good to avoid retaliatory violence.

Notice the above. The Serbs FLED from Kosovo -- they were not expelled.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:53 PM on 02/25/2008

So Gumbel is on the side of genocide. The Bosnians were right to turn Clinton down. Their people had been murdered en-mass by the thuggish Serbs. Hillary is right about Kosovo. Just because a mass of Serbs went on a raging spree against our embassy doesn't mean the Balkans are about to be inflamed again. The Serbs had a chance to vent their rage; it's not something that will result in an all out war. Better to side with the victims of attempted genocide than the Russians and Serbs who would be satisfied to see Kosovo in ruins. You need a conscience Gumbel. Using your reasoning, we might as well not vent our anger at those who are commiting genocide in Darfur. Just let it happen. Turn our backs and do nothing. Kosovars deserve their own state and shouldn't be ruled any more by those who commited such atrocites against them. Serbs are a minimal group among Kosovo. Turn our backs on Kosovo and we acquiece to criminals.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:07 PM on 02/23/2008

SB, what leads you to state the Kosovo situation as an either/or proposition? Victim status never confers Sainthood on a people. Serbs and Kosovars are expected to act in a lawful manner, no matter who was the victim previously. Stating this as an "it's either side with the good guys or the bad guys" proposition is to completely miss that point. Although there are certainly "bad guys" on the world's stage, no one gets a free pass.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:57 PM on 02/25/2008

No, Steamboater. Your history is not accurate. The Croatians and Serbs had been fighting at that point, with the Serbs ethnically cleansing Croatians from Krajina. Izetbegovich mistakenly thought the Serbs had a special hatred of Croats, and would not do the same to Bosniaks. Vance-Owens had almost pulled off a miracle, they had persuaded Milosevic to accept Bosnian independence. After initially agreeing, Izetbegovic backed out and demanded more territory. At that point, the Serbs used force in Bosnia.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:44 PM on 02/23/2008

For those not aware, Steamboat hates Serbians.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:40 PM on 02/23/2008


Steamboat doesn't mention the Albanians living in South Serbia just north of the Kosovo border.

They seem to be doing just fine. I don't see them dying to move to Kosovo. I wonder why?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:45 PM on 02/23/2008

Recently, I was talking to friends about the blatant and undercurrent of mysogeny votes against Hillary. What I missed was the anti-mysogeny votes for her, equally unfair in reason.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:59 PM on 02/23/2008

Kosovars are waiving USA flags?Why not?
Bill and Hillary gave them their "independence".
For how long...we'll see.
It is irresponsible to count Russia and China out now that USA is in debt and $$$ is worth
nothing.Serbs will get Kosovo back.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:59 PM on 02/23/2008

The only thing Serbia will get is to remain a pariah and a corrupt regime. If they don't behave, they can forget joining the euopean union and employment and their financial well being will remain in ruins.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:09 PM on 02/23/2008

The Serbs would rather have Kosovo, and trade with the Russians and Chinese, than join the EU.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 02/23/2008

No NO NO! You have to stick to the Clinton talking points! You HAVE to parrot the idea that Obama is all talk and no substance! You can't bring up areas where he has thought through a situation more reasonably and intelligently than she has! You can't site examples or instances of Obama's rational grasp of a foreign national situation! You must ignore these specific approaches to leadership and repeat the "empty rhetoric" theme!

Oh, and you have to tell us again that we're only supporting Obama because of fancy phrases and cultish brainwashing, not because of his intelligent grasp of the facts on the ground as evidenced by this latest example! Geez.

Get with the program, please!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:56 PM on 02/23/2008

Naive about the facts maybe, but because I was living in Europe at the time and sat on parent volunteer committees with Serbian women whose families were being bombed at the time I can state that without a doubt will I vote for Barack Obama. Obama has put together a foreign policy advisory group that has the balance and judgement not to create a premature war... Hillary Clinton's team on the other hand contains the same hawkish individuals who worked for her hubby and who support aggressive action such as that which has resulted in the worst foreign policy catastrophe in our history (Iraq). http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4940

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:31 PM on 02/23/2008

Maybe you stayed in Serbia too long. I winder. Did any of thiose people you wroked with ever admit to the slaughter Bosnians or did they enjoy it? Did any of the women you worked with ever bvent their outrage at their husbands commiting atrocities? Did you?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:12 PM on 02/23/2008

Steamboater has a hatred of Serbians.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:25 PM on 02/23/2008

Nah, I don't think SB knows Serbs enough to actually hate them. They are symbols only, of all that is WRONG in the world. Some folks need a black/white perspective to make sense of the world. Make that LOTS of folks. Uncertainty, like "is that guy the bad guy, or isn't he?" make for anxiety, and some folks have less tolerance for that than for anything else...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:03 PM on 02/25/2008

Even the most casual observer cannot fail to observe that Clinton's "35 years of experience" have failed to teach her anything, apart - perhaps - from the street-fighting style of dirty politics and back-room arrangements that she obviously favors.

Enough is enough. We can't afford any more of this bankrupt mindset.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 02/23/2008

So we are now going to blame the Clintons for the ethnic cleansing of Kosovo? May I remind you that the Kosavars where waving American flags and shouting "thank you Bill Clinton" last week. It was Clinton and NATO that ended that genocide and yes, of course he could have gone in earlier. Hindsight is 20/20 and FDR could have gone in earlier to save millions in concentration camps! Clinton's biggest regret was not doing more in Rwanda and he admitted that as a statesman. Please. Kosovo was in Europe's backyard and it took the American-led force to come in and save them and now the EU cannot even take over peacekeeping. If anything Kosovo was a case of serious European neglect and I am proud that NATO was able to end the genocide. I am also proud that HRC has a good grasp on the importance of NATO (when neither European nations nor the UN and their blue helmets can get it together). I don't even know if Obama could elaborate on the acronym to tell you the truth. Geez!!!! Are we really going to do this just to go after Clinton? It is so boring and predictable!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:31 PM on 02/23/2008

Bravo sef2121. The genocide in Bosnia was one of the mos shameful acts of the late 20th century and europe itself has a lot of blame to take. They didn't give a fig about doing anything to stop what was happening in their own backyard. Clinton acted but really too late though. In a sense, he had to be shamed into taking action but he did do it and should be, in the end, congratulated for it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:15 PM on 02/23/2008

Clinton did nothing to end the killing in Bosnia. The Croatian army won stunning victories in 1995, which led to the Dayton peace accord. Total dead on all three sides in Bosnia is given as 200,000. Total dead in Kosovo was 2000. What happened in Bosnia can be called genocide, but whatever happened in Kosovo, while perhaps unfortunate, was not genocide and was not cause for US intervention.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:50 PM on 02/23/2008

Kosova, regardless of its conditions within, regardless of the corruptions, you cannot expect to put a Nazi reminiscing nation together with their preys. The independence is justified. There is no question about it. Anyone questions that should ask himself what his words would refer to if you go back to just ~70 years ago. Or, forget about that, would you consider United States accepting Israel's independence as a misjudgment call because the Arabs strongly oppose it.

Honestly, I am really sick of people trying to criticize Hillary just for the sake of it, using illegitimate arguments.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:36 PM on 02/23/2008

I think you've missed the point of this article, which is to point out the complexities of Kosovo's move to independence that Obama apparently understands, but Ms. Clinton does not. No one said anything about whether or not the move was "justified" -- your words.

Her flag waving over the move to independence (or however you want to characterize it) was a policy blunder -- if you expect your next Head of State to understand and act effectively in the world of diplomacy. However, if you just want that person to STAND for an IDEAL regardless of what other countries think, then Hillary is your woman.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:11 PM on 02/25/2008

The Jewish people did not have a singular country of origin, as opposed to the Albanians in Kosovo who came from where? Albania.

Nazi sympathizers were the Croatians and the Bosnian Muslims. Albanians as well.

The Serbs were strong anti-Nazi allies of the US.

What's your point and what makes whatever your point is legitimate?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:48 PM on 02/23/2008

You are so oversimplifying this it isn't even funny. And making some serious errors of fact.

Serbia was VERY pro Nazi, going so far as to issue a postage stamp declaring Belgrade the first city to be free of all its Jews. It also gave them free reign to go after their hated rivals, the Croats.

As for Croatia, there were three distinct groups. One sided with the Nazis, the Ustasha, the other were the partisans fighting against the Nazis and for an independent Croatia and the third was Tito's communists. At most, only 1/3 of Croats were pro-Nazi.

The CROATS were the strong anti-Nazi allies of the US and the UK. They sent word begging the US and the Brits to land in Dalmatia and move up the Balkan peninsula into Hungary and Austria and then into Germany. This would have been faster than going up Italy.

What the Cr