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Andrew Pessin

Andrew Pessin

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Do Religious People Really Believe in God?

Posted: 08/17/10 09:16 AM ET

Most people don't believe in God. At least not really.

I'm speaking primarily of people who claim to believe in God. My assertion isn't that no one really believes in God. It's merely that far fewer people than you might think really do believe in God.

This assertion does not itself reflect any view on whether God actually exists. It is instead about whether people believe that God exists. The philosopher Georges Rey aptly refers to the claim that they don't as "meta-atheism."

My inclination towards meta-atheism first developed as I studied, for my recent book The God Question: What Famous Thinkers from Plato to Dawkins Have Said About the Divine, the history of theodicy -- that is, the efforts by various thinkers over time to explain how the all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good God might allow all the horrible imperfections and evils in the world. Two things especially struck me as I worked my way through these writings. First, this so-called "problem of evil," which atheists regularly raise against religious belief, is not as instantly destructive of theism as many atheists think: many sophisticated, insightful, and profound things can justifiably be said in response to this problem. But second, more importantly, the more sophisticated, insightful, and profound the responses to the problem become, the more, it strikes me, it is impossible for anyone to genuinely believe them.

For just one notorious example, the 17th-century thinker Leibniz argued that God, by His nature, would create the best of all possible worlds; and since sometimes certain evils are necessary in order to bring about greater goods, even the best of all possible worlds, overall, might have to include various amounts of evil. When you follow this idea into its details, you will discover that, strictly speaking, it may work: on some philosophical level you may be able to reconcile the existence of God and all the evils in our world.

Except for one thing: it seems literally incredible, beyond believable, that this world -- with its history of wars, diseases, natural disasters, deaths of innocent children -- is the best of all possible ones. Voltaire's great novel Candide found Leibniz the best of all possible targets for lampooning, since almost no one, not even those inclined towards belief in God, could take that idea really seriously.

Meta-atheism is also supported by more contemporary things than dusty old philosophy books.

Hypocrisy is of course not limited to believers, but one must be struck by some of the more flagrant cases of religious hypocrisy regularly in the news. Television preachers' criminal activities, priests engaged in pedophilia, evangelicals publicly condemning homosexuality while privately practicing it, family-values legislators conducting extramarital affairs, even religious teens promoting abstinence while sexing up: there is no shortage of alleged believers violating the tenets they claim to believe.

One common response, of course, is to cite our weakness of will, or sinful nature. But ask yourself: if you really believed in an all-powerful God who condemned that behavior, who condemned (for eternity) individuals who engaged in that behavior, could you really, even for a second, engage in that behavior? (Compare: if you really believed that the bridge you were about to cross was going to collapse, would you even chance driving over it?)

Actions do speak louder than words: they reflect what we really believe. And most religious believers regularly engage in actions inconsistent with genuine religious belief. So they must not really believe after all.

There are many other, more mundane, examples. Even believers may not believe that this is the best of all possible worlds, but surely they believe that everything that occurs does so because it is God's will that it occur. But then why, exactly, should anyone get upset when anything happens, since everything that happens does so because the all-knowing and all-good God wills that it occurs? Or more painfully, people grieve when they lose their loved ones, especially children. But if you really believe in God, what is there to grieve about? This world, the actual world we inhabit, is far inferior to the afterlife, to heaven, to being with God. Certainly a child who dies young, before ever having the opportunity to be morally culpable for anything, would merit the more positive final disposition rather than the more negative. But then her death would be an occasion for rejoicing, on her behalf, not an occasion for grieving on our own.

This brief case for meta-atheism doesn't address all forms of "belief," of course. These days, lots of people will say (for example) that they believe in "something greater," even if they don't sign on to any specific set of institutional religious beliefs. But then again, if you don't believe in a "something greater" with the specific properties God allegedly has, then it isn't God you believe in either.

So most people do not believe in God, even if they claim -- not merely to others, but even to themselves -- that they do.

 
 
 

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Most people don't believe in God. At least not really. I'm speaking primarily of people who claim to believe in God. My assertion isn't that no one really believes in God. It's merely that far f...
Most people don't believe in God. At least not really. I'm speaking primarily of people who claim to believe in God. My assertion isn't that no one really believes in God. It's merely that far f...
 
 
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09:26 PM on 08/28/2010
I always thought the need to believe came from the refusal to accept death as final. Remember that WWII saying "there's no atheists in foxholes"... The promise of the afterlife is the ultimate selling point of religion. The second biggest selling point is that there is an ultimate justice. These are the two beliefs that I think are hardest for most people to question when they consider atheism.
04:38 PM on 08/24/2010
Mr.P, OK, you convinced me folks don't believe in God, what do they believe in?

The answer seems to be, since Nietzsche's 'death of god', that we have substituted the causa sui project, of making ourselves god (seeking of fame, power, money). We keep the idea of god around to falsely (Sartre's 'bad faith') give up control of our life to. Since we 'know' god isn't there, or he has put us on call-waiting, we can safely give lip service without fear of reprisal. This is the neurotic solution, to have our cake and eat it too. I am my own god, but won't admit it, so I seemingly give my freedom to a non-existent being without power. I imagine that morality descends, yet what morality I really have comes from inside. It is a shell game of three-card Monte I play with myself, knowing all along where 'it' isn't, but pretending I do know where it is.

As someone comments below, Protestants are either Calvinists (predestination--we were chosen by) or Arminians (e.g., Kierkegaard was so influenced)--god gives us a choice, but there is no penalty if we DON'T choose, only rewards ('Pie tomorrow', Dickens) in the utopian future (Marx; Teilhard) or heaven. Sartre, however, reminds us that not to choose is a choice.

Thus, to take up what you don't answer, it is about choice, especially in 'bad faith'.
07:29 PM on 08/20/2010
To rephrase, religious people really need to believe in God, and that need trumps reason. They want to believe someone up there is taking care of them, will make everything alright, and give them immortality.

God is defined by Christians as being both All Good and All Powerful. As the Omnipotent and Only god, he created all things including Satan and devils (who are evil) and humans, along with their potential for evil. He also created Hell, i.e., never-ending burning of his own creatures who don't obey his laws. Even a mildly merciful god could not think up such a sadistic scenario as eternal torture. The conclusion is inescapable that if the Biblical God is Omnipotent, he cannot be Omnibenevolent, as the Old Testament says:
- I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things – Isaiah 45:7
- Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

Now, if you veer from the Biblical concept of God to a dualistic approach, you might find a way out of the predicament. The Zoroastrian god Ahura Mazda is Omnibenevolent but not Omnipotent. He must fight Ahriman, the evil god, until the end of the world. Pretty well matched in power, the hopeful prediction is that the Good God will win. He may not be All Powerful, but he's All Good, and that makes more moral sense to me.
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DrBlizzardo
03:31 PM on 08/20/2010
As an atheist, naturally, my prejudices are to agree with this article. Pedophile priests may be so sick (and therefore not at fault) that their God will forgive them, but the bishops and cardinals who not only protect and promote child rapists, but many times simply move them to a new parish feeding them fresh victims, are truly evil. There is no possible way these men can believe in the god they profess to their flocks, in the hell and damnation they threaten those who disobey.

I do good for a very simple, selfish reason---it makes me feel good about myself. When I do bad things, it makes me feel awful about myself. These feelings are not "divinely inspired" they are accounted for in the biological and societal evolution of human beings. I think anyone who'd rather be happy than miserable can understand my simple, honest if selfish, motivations...I wonder if people who claim to be religious can be as honest about their motivation.

Do they do good works because it is what their god wants them to do, or because they are afraid of being punished? If it is the later, can it really be called "doing good works" or shouldn't it merely be called what it is: avoiding punishment.
02:09 AM on 08/21/2010
Doing what works for you, and refraining from what doesn't. Can't think of a much better approach to living than that.
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Godfearing
War On Women, Blacks, and Hispanics are voters 2
01:06 PM on 08/20/2010
I would like to know for sure there is a God, but how can I believe the preaching from Christian ministers who tell me that if I give $100.00 to them, God will give me a $1000.00 back. I may have been born at night but it was not last night. For me, there are too many lies and not enough truth floating around churches and mosques.
02:25 AM on 08/21/2010
In every big organization there's the role for middlemen and with the Christian ministers its no different. In these tough economic times the facts are these: God is broke! God has run out of money!
Do you know how much it costs to make a cloud?...
05:24 PM on 08/22/2010
Godfearing
Every institution and every movement has it's share of charlatans.
You are exactly right. There is too little real truth to be found in MANY churches.
But I did not say ALL churches.
If a man tells a lie about God, does God then not exist?
The real truth of God is found in the Bible and there are some true Bible believing churches.
Keep looking and pray that God will lead you to one of them.
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mountain man col
My Wordpress site is "reasoningpolitics"
11:58 AM on 08/20/2010
When I look out at the spectrum of the faithful, I see one group that really stands out as true believers: those who deny medical care for their children. They truly believe in God's power to intervene in the world at a supernatural level. In my opinion, that is true belief, not just lip service. Of course, God does not intervene and their children die at horrifying rates far above national average.

To those who profess belief I would challenge you to prove it like these people do. If you are unwilling, perhaps as Daniel Dennett says, you simply value the belief in the belief in God and do not actually believe in God.
02:23 PM on 08/20/2010
you are confusing belief in the Creator with craziness. There are many other possibilities between a complete rejection of free will and lack of belief in God, and most believers lie somewhere between.
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mountain man col
My Wordpress site is "reasoningpolitics"
08:23 PM on 08/20/2010
I was referring to a theistic deity that can intervene in our world. A generic 'creator' can be anything. If your belief is, "God answers prayers," then those people are the true believers.
04:35 PM on 08/20/2010
There is another group who also stands out as true believers.

Suicide bombers.

No question about their sincerity either.
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mountain man col
My Wordpress site is "reasoningpolitics"
08:24 PM on 08/20/2010
Yes, to paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, the hijackers on 9-11 were the most Godly people in the planes.
11:08 AM on 08/20/2010
So is the corollary question to anyone who leads a moral life but is a non-believer "Do Atheists really not believe in God?" Or at least that there may be some afterlife consequences for actions?

If all we are is the result of some carbon compounds accidentally coming together, and our consciousness some meaningless by product of some electrochemical reactions, then morality doesn't exist for us any more than it would for a pocket calculator. Acts that we consider good or evil have absolutely no more significance than a row of dominoes falling this way or that way.

We'll make rules to make society operate better, but get past those and you're home free. Reminds me of the Woody Allen movie where a doctor has his black mailing mistress killed, gets away with it, and movie ends showing him continuing with his happy productive life. Allen's unhappy conclusion was that's all there is to it. On the other and, if you believe that our actions have real after life or karmic consequences, then that raises things to a real order of seriousness and the doc's got away with nothing.

I'd suspect that the fine atheists who lead good lives in their gut are motivated less by morality as an artificial societal construct (how much motivation is that) but at least on some level have a feeling that good and bad actions are real, with real consequences. (And will probably they'll deny it)
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mountain man col
My Wordpress site is "reasoningpolitics"
11:36 AM on 08/20/2010
"I'd suspect that the fine atheists who lead good lives in their gut are motivated less by morality as an artificial societal construct (how much motivation is that) but at least on some level have a feeling that good and bad actions are real, with real consequences. (And will probably they'll deny it"

I do not think many atheists would deny that: its a ethical system call consequentialism. One tries to judge the 'correct-ness' of one's behavior based on the consequences. As an atheist, I simply do dot believe there is a cosmic arbiter who will route my eternal soul to heaven or hell based on those behaviors.

I do not believe there is a divine mandate for morality, or absolute morality can exist, especially from religion, who's moral decrees change with the winds. Humans are wired by evolution to be empathic: we feel what others are feeling. I do not believe there is anything supernatural regarding morality and altruism. Here's an RSA piece you may enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g
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DrBlizzardo
03:08 PM on 08/20/2010
Bingo...and fanned.
04:16 PM on 08/20/2010
Thanks, the clip was interesting. The law of karma is not really supernatural. There are very many things we have today that would be considered as supernatural hundreds of years ago.
11:53 AM on 08/20/2010
Why in the world would an atheist deny that "bad" actions have consequences? That's like saying an atheist would deny that gravity is real because they don't believe God created it. Of course "bad" actions have consequences, and they don't need God imposing them to exist. Does God run the local law enforcement agency that's going to throw me in prison for assaulting someone? No, I don't believe he does.

Is it required that God exist for me to consider ME getting assaulted to be a bad thing and support a society in which that type of behaviour is curtailed? Again, hardly.

People who think God is required for morality just dumbfound me. Are you seriously arguing that if believing God exists is the only thing keeping you from going on a serial killing rampage or something? Sheesh.
01:24 PM on 08/20/2010
I meant that in atheist land there are no consequences outside of the societal construct. Re the W Allen movie again, once the doc has seen he's escaped John Law the absolute only consequences for his murder are his being able to continue his happy prosperous life. Sure, generally murder is a bad thing for society, but his own situation seems to be improved by it. He might even argue that since he's a doctor helping people every day, its to society's greater benefit that he not have his life ruined by the mistress.

At risk of dwelling too much on Woody, he's made dozens of movies with all the same theme, always hoping for someone to prove him wrong, and is always left disappointed. But maybe you or someone else can point where he's off.
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Mark Berryhill
10:25 AM on 08/20/2010
"If you really believe that death leads to eternal bliss, then why are you wearing a seat belt?"~ Doug Stanhope.
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Uncle Bob
Darwin loves you.
02:45 AM on 08/20/2010
as Dan Dennett called it, "belief in belief". I think that describes almost all moderates. They like the idea of belief and they give it lip service.

Describes most people that argue on HP IMO.
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01:15 AM on 08/20/2010
If people realllllly believed in heaven....why are they scared to die? Why are they sad when other die?
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gal416
is a Bible verse † † †
12:49 AM on 08/20/2010
The scribes and Pharasees were the most religious people mentioned in the New Testament portion of the bible. Here's what Jesus had to say about them:

Matthew 23:13 ¶ But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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hayness
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence
08:46 PM on 08/19/2010
One thing I've always wondered is why the majority of believers think that
1) they can talk to god (in prayer)
2) god answers their prayers
3) divine inspiration is real

and yet when one of their "extremist" members chooses to pray for a child to recover and the child dies, or they murder a child because they say "god told them to do it" the mainstream reviles this person for being crazy.

What possible criteria could you have for thinking THAT person is crazy when YOU believe that the same god talks to you on a regular basis?
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gal416
is a Bible verse † † †
12:28 AM on 08/20/2010
When you talk to God it's called prayer but when God talks to you it's called schizophrenia.
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Richard McRae
I fan awesome people.
12:20 PM on 08/23/2010
A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
~ Friedrich Nietzsche
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hayness
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence
08:31 PM on 08/19/2010
Sorry but this is complete nonsense. I am now an atheist but I certainly believed devoutly in a god when I was a believer (not a Xian).

The reason that people can believe in a god and yet also accept evil, etc. is that they really do not LOOK AT and ANALYZE what is going on around them. They see isolated cases which are easy to dismiss or to rationalize saying that "God's ways are not our ways" or "there's a reason". It's not until you are forced to look rationally at what is really going on around us and the scale of suffering that you finally realize that there is no way a benevolent omnipotent god would have created this world.

It also helps to look at the lack of evidence for a soul that exists independently of the body. The two - the problem of evil and the lack of evidence for a soul - (along with a bit of religious history and the history of the bible) were what finally woke me up to the fact that religions are ALL manmade.

But until then, I really did believe in an omnipotent, benevolent god. In fact, I was horribly depressed - this is quite common with deconverted religionists - for some time at the loss of my constant companion. It took at least a year to come to terms with the loss. If I didn't really believe, I don't think the loss would have been so devastating.
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sarahinez
07:16 PM on 08/19/2010
I had such hopes for this piece from the title, but it's a collection of straw men, not the expected reasoned debate.

"If people really believed that sin would cause them torment, they'd stop sinning." Shoot, I believe that being fat will shorten my life, but I'll walk my chubby self to my freezer for some ice cream later. Plenty of people smoke, drink, etc. even knowing the risks--precisely because the consequences aren't immediate--and it doesn't get less immediate than after death. If we got zapped us immediately after each sin (or each puff caused bloody coughing), it would be easier to stop.

Who says believers (specifically, Christians) think that God wills everything that happens? Christians have debated this issue for hundreds of years. I can't speak for Catholics, but Protestants who do are "Calvinists,; the rest of us are, even if we don't know it, "Arminians." We believe that God gave us free will. Free will means that we can make choices; the universe's nature is that our choices have consequences for others. Even lack of action has real consequences for real people. (See US infrastructure)

Yes, we believe that God may cause things to happen, but we'd never say that God makes everything happen. There are even believers who don't think that God will let anyone suffer eternal torment--they're called Universalists.--yes, as in Unitarian Universalists. Believers are a much wider group than suggested here.
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Richard McRae
I fan awesome people.
12:28 PM on 08/23/2010
Your eating poorly/getting fat analogy falls short. The problem is that the potential consequences of eating poorly don't outweigh the enjoyment you get out of doing it. In that same regard, you don't KNOW it's shortening your life. You've heard it, you've seen the studies, you know it - but all of that is completely different than if you could actually see to the end of your life and see how many years you're taking off. Until that happens we humans have a tendency to believe, in small part, that death is something that is so far off we don't even consider it a viable reality.

Much like hell.

But think about all the times you (or someone else) is tempted to do something illegal. The punishment has a direct result on how much you're willing to chance it. Kill someone? Not likely - the punishment is too high. Speed? Why not? What's a speeding ticket? So if you believed in hell and the concept of eternal torture and suffering why would ANY sin be worth it? Why is it that a speeding ticket is a better deterent than hell? Here's a hint: Because a speeding ticket is more real, and even the religious, deep deep down, give more credit and validity to human laws than godly ones.
04:08 PM on 08/24/2010
RMcR. Yup, also, Sartre says that we KNOW about our own death, but can never experience it consciously (e.g. reading when your plane slams into a mountain). Thus the meaning of 'my' life is left for others to judge after I'm dead.

The reason for this is that awareness (of the infant, pure subjectivity) becomes consciousness by a standing-apart (ekstasis = objectivity), by a 'watching', a split, a negation.
On a different track, I am always aware of my death, as a standing-apart, waiting, watching my consciousness, so to speak (as consciousness, I watch; death, as consciousness seems to watch me). It is the overlap of these two, and the failure to differentiate them, that is similar to your 'ice cream shortens your life' example.

Add to this his statement that 'Death, although we think of it as annihilation, is the suppression of Nothingness'' and there is a deep psychological impasse, which can be sorted out (note: suppression = negation, thus negation of Nothingness).

Rather than sort it out at the philosophical level, someone made a comment, last month, "metaphysician heal thyself'. Cute. However, the mystic has ceased or negated consciousness. The usual satori experience is the sudden realization that 'I' don't exist in time (time[-as-consciousness] seems to stop), yet I am still 'alive'--this conundrum points to the failure of both consciousness (as affirmation; as science) and mysticism (as negation). There is a third choice, the Muddle of the Excluded Middle (see my permalink).
Chroesus
Always seek enlightenment...resist ignorance and s
06:11 PM on 08/19/2010
I know little of religion other than Christianity. Any sane, thinking person who read the Bible and knows
even a smattering of science, the purported events stated therein become laughable. From what I've seen, religious belief comes from equal parts socialization, early childhood brainwashing and an awesome level of wishful thinking and self-delusion.