Andy Stern

Andy Stern

Posted: October 3, 2008 12:34 PM

So... Now What?

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Let's face it: the Bailout Bill doesn't get to the heart of what's wrong with our economy.

Neither you, nor I, nor many of those who voted for it believe that this bill is going to solve the pressing issues American families are facing: rising unemployment, stagnant wages, skyrocketing health care costs, a tax system that favors the wealthy over the workers. The enormous challenges facing American families are real and they aren't going away. But when your ship is taking on water and starting to sink, a bucket looks pretty good.

Another good idea? Start building a better boat.

If there's one lesson we can take away from the fight over the Wall Street bailout it is this: things aren't going to change unless we fundamentally change the way we do business in Washington.

At SEIU, we've laid out a blueprint to get there. Along with our brothers and sisters in Change to Win, we proposed that for half of the amount approved to bail out Wall Street, we can make a real investment in Main Street by funding programs that will improve the lives of tens of millions of Americans. Relief for struggling homeowners; quality, affordable health care for all; improved infrastructure; making sure that workers have real freedom to choose a voice at work --- these are basic steps we can take now that will have a far more powerful impact on our long-term economic health than any cash bailout for Wall Street.

The good news is that in just about one month, we won't have to put our economic fate in the hands of a Republican administration. We, the people will have the power to make our own choice: between the old politics of corporate cronyism and worship of the market - or the promise of change. The promise of quality health care that every person in this country can afford, and the ability to retire secure in the knowledge that your savings won't be lost in a turbulent stock market. The promise of a sustainable energy policy that provides new jobs and long-term energy independence. The promise of a new American dream.

Barack Obama has a plan to fulfill that promise for change. And when he is elected president, SEIU's 2 million members are going to make sure that he implements that plan, so we can create a new American economic model that works for Main Street, not just Wall Street.

There is a lot of talk about what could have been done this week. It's time for us to turn our attention to what must be done this November. We have a chance to do something transformational on Election Day.

On November 4, we will set this nation on a new course that will end the era of corporate cronyism and market worship and puts the government back on the side of the American people.

Let's face it: the Bailout Bill doesn't get to the heart of what's wrong with our economy. Neither you, nor I, nor many of those who voted for it believe that this bill is going to solve the pressin...
Let's face it: the Bailout Bill doesn't get to the heart of what's wrong with our economy. Neither you, nor I, nor many of those who voted for it believe that this bill is going to solve the pressin...
 
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- elpollo I'm a Fan of elpollo 3 fans permalink

"Let's face it: the Bailout Bill doesn't get to the heart of what's wrong with our economy."

How naive - of course it got to the heart of what's wrong, the bankster elite sucking out all the wealth of the middle class. They steal our assets blind, and now they are sticking us with their bad gambling debts. Notice that both major parties and their presidential candidates are water carriers and bagmen for these elites. But the core problem goes much deeper - a fractional reserve banking system cannot survive without constant growth, and the ability to grow in real terms has run headlong into a wall - the physical limits of our finite planet. For more details on this, see:
http://www.chrismartenson.com/three_beliefs

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 AM on 10/06/2008
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We in America have a "Job Crisis" ... that is the real culprit behind our mess. Does no one see that when our manufacturing started to move overseas and those jobs were lost forever, traditionally high paying blue collar workers had to move to jobs in the service industry that pay half or less of what they were making... when the middle class wages are eroding what happens to the sales of goods? it decreases.. that is economics 101 ... if no one is earning enough to pay for a new car they don't sell! the line has been that the economy is great, imports are up!.. because our greatest import is bonds. I'll say it again, our greatest import is debt! .... the sale of our equity and property, not manufactured hard item widgets ... debt. Union busting, free trade, and a so-called world economy ... trade is not free unless the foreign parties have to play by the same rules, have to pay their workers a decent wage... I've heard that "we cannot compete" our union workers are paid too much... so they have won and our jobs are gone and our wages are eroding to third world standards so now we will become a third world nation of debt, low wages and whatever else comes with it... but hey, the rich are getting richer... and the economy is fundamentally sound right?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:33 PM on 10/05/2008
- arthur2008 I'm a Fan of arthur2008 5 fans permalink

They are forcing us to pay for the rape kit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:16 PM on 10/04/2008
- NicoleAnon I'm a Fan of NicoleAnon 9 fans permalink

Are you capable of making your point in a less offensive way?

We know all about it already - SP is a horrible person who doesn't care about women. We get it - it's mentioned here about a thousand times every day.

Seriously, it's really lame.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:28 PM on 10/04/2008
- cylindar I'm a Fan of cylindar 7 fans permalink

I don't think it is lame to mention it. It is a grave injustice and a most perfect example and it should be shouted from every rooftop in the land. You will be hearing it over and over and you won't be able to stop people from talking about it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 PM on 10/05/2008
- Ladyhawk1 I'm a Fan of Ladyhawk1 2 fans permalink

I took an economics class a few years back, and my economics book states Fascism as:

“The means of production are left in private hands, with varying degrees of governmental interference.

A one-party state, suppression of economic freedom and a militaristic orientation. “

Elections! I don’t think so! They will try to portray it as an election…but it will be a coup.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:23 PM on 10/04/2008

If your economics book says anything about fascism, it's not an economics book at all. It tries to be either a history or a political sciences book. Real economics text books are generally more about math than anything else.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:31 PM on 10/04/2008
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Does any one else here feel like we just got played? Is it a little too convenient that a few months before bush's term ends that the economy goes cablooie and voila.... we are another trillion in debt. Where does the money come from and where did it go in the first place? In a time when we are spending trillionssss of dollars in iraq, when the trickle down economy means that by the time it reaches most of us it's minimum wage, when our manufacturing jobs have gone to india, china, mexico, and vietnam... now by golly there is no more here for wall street!!! well damn! so our representatives, in their infinite wisdom vote to make up another trillion... i know they say seven Billion, but hey whose counting? So they make up another TRILLION to add to our great grandchildrens inheritance... and now they say " It might not work!?" - well hey, take another. go ahead, because most of us are already broke and the only way out is up, so whats another trillion, just some imaginary number... we got played.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:30 PM on 10/04/2008

Not really. Maybe that's because I feel like I have a faint understanding of what is happening.

"we are another trillion in debt"

That's not quite correct. You were another trillion in debt when people who shouldn't have took out home loans that were unwise. The problem happened years ago and unless you have a time machine to go back, there is nothing anybody can do about that.

"Where does the money come from and where did it go in the first place?"

Money came from greedy investors and the fed. That's where it always comes from. And it went into the pockets of people who sold houses at an inflated price during the height of the bubble. That would be Joe and Jane Babyboomer. You can ask in retirement communities in Florida and California what they did with it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:35 PM on 10/04/2008
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actually we are another trillion in debt as of last friday, seven hundred and fifty billion or thereabouts ... lets just call it a trillion... as of last friday. the people who took out home loans and then could not pay for them did so when they had jobs that gave them an adequate wage... then they lost the jobs. some, granted, took out loans with hopes they could resell at a greater price and had no business doing so... and many were sold on adjustable rate mortgages hoping to refinance and then home prices stopped increasing. I have a "faint understanding" too of what is happening. we have been played. we have just agreed to let the treasury department, actually the head of the treasury -one man- control seven hundred billion dollars to buy worthless bonds... or give .... to "bail out,' ,rescue," or finance banks, mortgage holding companies, domestic or foreign, at a time when we are borrowing from the Chinese to keep a war going, when abu dubai and saudi arabia own more of aremica that americans... and you see nothing wrong??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:21 PM on 10/05/2008

Sorry to disagree. This legislation, TARP, is absolutely needed. Why? The financial system needs to get the bond market working again and that can only happen if a major buyer of bonds steps forward. Right now the entire world's bond market is almost at a stand still which is affecting economic activity from A to Z. Never before has our economy faced this predicament.

Once a buyer steps forward for bonds, whether distressed or even AAA, then other buyers will come in since they know there is a big enough purchaser to keep a floor on prices. This is absolutely necessary right now. If the bond/credit markets stall much longer, we are then likely head into a depression.

However, we need a fair system to pay for TARP: new taxes targeting the sector of society who have reaped the most from this bubble: the super wealthy 1.0%.

My proposal is simple. Any family, individual, or taxpaying entity with a worldwide net worth exceeding $10.0 million would pay an annual 2% "intangibles" tax. Tax would graduate up for higher brackets, so that those with a net worth over $1.0 billion would pay up to 5%.

99% of Americans will never experience this tax, yet the Federal government could see an additional $1.0 billion a year in revenue. Net worth should include everything except the main residence, i.e. stocks, bonds, private companies, private trusts, art collections, real estate holdings, foreign holdings, etc.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 10/04/2008
- nezumi I'm a Fan of nezumi 2 fans permalink

Other buyers will come forward? Get real.

Foreign banks like Deutsche are already on the lookout to dump some of their toxic MBS with the US gov. They are aching to bleed the treasury.

A bailout was necessary, but, compared to that, it would have been better just to give all the money to the FDIC so as to bail out banks when they are in REAL distress. And the FDIC would see to it that the banks in distress are also nationalized in the process so that the taxpayer can reap a reward later when the rescued institution has regained breathing space and positive net worth.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:26 PM on 10/04/2008

It's not any worse or any different than importing oil. This year it will be some $600 billion. Same order of magnitude as the bailout. The problem is that we can afford either of the two, but not both at the same time. Maybe Jimmy Carter was right all along...

:-)

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:46 PM on 10/04/2008
- DuganS1 I'm a Fan of DuganS1 18 fans permalink

Private equity companies are looking to buy a lot of this stuff; Fortress is one. Warren Buffet said last week that he is also looking to buy some.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:19 AM on 10/05/2008

Changes on Wall Street are not enough. This problem starts and ends at Main Street. People need to start saving instead of spending their money on Walmart crap from China.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:15 PM on 10/04/2008
- Zeje I'm a Fan of Zeje 9 fans permalink

But then policies have to be put in place to enable saving to happen. That's the problem. People are in debt up to their eyeballs. And stop saying it's all about plasma tvs. You live in an afflluent area. Most of us do not. Lower interest rates, rewrite bankruptcy laws, extend unemployment benefits, stop granting tax breaks to corporations that send jobs overseas, upgrade public transit (so we don't need cars). None of this is going to happen.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:37 PM on 10/04/2008

"And stop saying it's all about plasma tvs."

Sadly, it is about plasma tvs.

Look at the statistics... it drives tears to my eyes whenever I see this:

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Nonfarm employment.......| 137,699
Goods-producing (1)....| 21,565
Construction ........| 7,242
Manufacturing .......| 13,563
Service-providing (1)..| 116,134
Retail trade (2)...| 15,337
Professional and business services .| 17,980
Education and health services ..........| 18,823
Leisure and hospitality .......| 13,683
Government ..........| 22,439

Do you see what's wrong with this picture? We have tens of millions of people employed in the Retail trade and Leisure and hospitality businesses. They all depend on disposable income. If some of that disposable income is supplied by debt, there will be millions of layoffs as soon as we stop allowing people to accrue more of it.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:42 PM on 10/04/2008
- DuganS1 I'm a Fan of DuganS1 18 fans permalink

Consumers saving is not what we have to happen, as it will result in reduced GDP and thus more business failures and hundreds of thousands more lost jobs. Second, let's not forget that the folks "up to their eyeballs" are mostly concentrated in five states and don't by any means apply to the country as a whole. There are plenty of folks out there who have no mortgages or mortgages that are affordable because they didn't buy at the peak of the cycle. I don't understand the "tax breaks to corporations that send jobs overseas" comment. I hear this a lot as political propaganda but realistically it's meaningless and won't change anything.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:23 AM on 10/05/2008
- tc399 I'm a Fan of tc399 17 fans permalink
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Pendulums swing....too far one way, then too far the other. That's why we need the checks and balanced provided for by the Constitution, and why Congress and the Supreme court must balance the Executive branch.

Bush almost...and may already have...usurped that system of checks and balances, and party politics are fine....

IF the members of congress work for the betterment of their constituents and not for the betterment of their pocketbooks. I would go so far as to propose an amendment to the constitution stating the oath of office of any elected official is sacred and failing that oath is tantamount to treason.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:39 PM on 10/04/2008
- CrazyJane I'm a Fan of CrazyJane 2 fans permalink

It's dishonest of Stern to write this without mention of card-check legislation, which Obama would likely sign.

Card-check makes it easier for unions to sign up new members. But it also deprives workers of privacy when deciding whether or not to vote for union representation.

I believe in unions, but card check bothers me.

As a depression is likely to favor more people wanting to join unions, and will encourage union organizing activity, particularly under an Obama administration, lack of mention of card-check legislation should concern anyone who believes in personal privacy.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 AM on 10/04/2008

Hey guys get the word out and show everyone that you support Obama. Im helping my friends fundraise by selling Obama car flags. They have them wholesale as well. So if you want to buy them and sell them to fundraise too or just give them out to your friends its a fun way to show people your support and get loads of honks and smiles in the process. Help them support Barack.

http://www.avehicle4change.com

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:00 AM on 10/04/2008
- iswideopen I'm a Fan of iswideopen 61 fans permalink

I know for a fact that republicans are anti-union. I am a member of SEIU in CA and each time a republican govener is in office, civil servants like us get the budget balanced on our backs each fiscal year, with an attempt to ruin our union, one "take-away" at a time. So far, they have failed. The republicans are "stuck on stupid" of that failed Reaganomics policy which continued to George W. Bush and John McCain that led us to where we are today, in addition to other serious abuses in government. Believe the facts or the spin, I can only go by the initial fact that will never leave my mind. When Roland Reagan fired those Air Traffice Controllers for striking, things in our government have never been the same. Everything became a big "power grab" and somebody got greedy and more corrupt. Blaming, I know, serves no purpose. "We The People", we have but one mission at this time; SHOW UP AT THE POLLS ON NOVEMBER 4 AND VOTE FOR OBAMA/BIDEN. This is our last hope.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 01:21 AM on 10/04/2008
- DuganS1 I'm a Fan of DuganS1 18 fans permalink

Many American Presidents have fought against the unions. Democratic President Truman, for example, threatened to draft all the coal strikers into the military unless they went back to work (and they did go back to work). The fact is that unions from the late 60s to the early 80s had done great damage to the economy. They had fought for obscene wage and benefit packages which produced a massive inflationary wage-price spiral in this country and made many American companies and entire sectors uncompetitive. Unions also went on strike frequently in those days, shutting down entire sectors of the economy, and they often refused to allow productivity improvements within their facilities, leaving those manufacturers even worse off. By the 1980s, investors simply stopped investing in US manufacturing and instead invested abroad. This, unfortunately, has been the trend in this country since, although investment is starting to come into the US in many sectors because of the weak dollar and higher transportation costs.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:20 AM on 10/04/2008
- Rule Of Law I'm a Fan of Rule Of Law 144 fans permalink

The problem in the 80's wasn't Unions, it was Reagan and Volker.

To ring inflation out of the economy, Reagan had Volker raise interest rates to over 18%!!! Most American corporations could not afford that money or continue to do business here at those rates, and thus Reagan began the exodus of American Industry to Asia that continues today! The underlying philosophy behind that economic policy was--and is even more so today with Bush--the destruction of unions, the protections they afforded working men and women, and the total dismantling of the FDR created Middle Class. This is Class Warfare, folks. And the 1%ers just reached into your pockets again for a $700+ Billion down payment, because don't kid yourself--there will be more bailouts yet to come and the interest bill will be on OUR charge card for generations. Welcome to Corporate Fascism, thanks to the Republican party and Wall Street.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 PM on 10/04/2008
- Rule Of Law I'm a Fan of Rule Of Law 144 fans permalink

The problem in the 80's wasn't Unions, it was Reagan and Volker.

To ring inflation out of the economy, Reagan had Volker raise interest rates to over 18%!!! Most American corporations could not afford that money or continue to do business here at those rates, and thus Reagan began the exodus of American Industry to Asia that continues today! The underlying philosophy behind that economic policy was--and is even more so today with Bush--the destruction of unions, the protections they afforded working men and women, and the total dismantling of the FDR created Middle Class. This is Class Warfare, folks. And the 1%ers just reached into your pockets again for a $700+ Billion down payment, because don't kid yourself--there will be more bailouts yet to come and the interest bill will be on OUR charge card for generations. Welcome to Corporate Fascism, thanks to the Republican party and Wall Street.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 PM on 10/04/2008
- madnarc I'm a Fan of madnarc 3 fans permalink

The problem with Americans is we are more consumers than producers. We don't believe in saving, just spending to fulfill our appetite for any and everything. Americans have a 0% savings ratio while the Chinese have a 45% savings ratio. Guess which country has more disposable cash? Until we learn to live within our means we will never get ahead.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:10 AM on 10/04/2008
- Carsy I'm a Fan of Carsy 15 fans permalink
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Awesome, one of the best posts I have read concerning the economic situation. Unfortunately it isn't a very good slogan for running for office" you are irresponsible, you can't have everything you want, live within your means", how many people really want to hear that?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 AM on 10/04/2008
- bootcamp I'm a Fan of bootcamp 8 fans permalink

McCain has nowhere to go now but down. He can run away from President Bush, but he can't run away from the Republican Party. The Republicans will be regarded from now on as "the party that wrecked America." Over the weeks ahead, as carnage in the economy and the financial markets ramps up, it will become increasingly clear. It is important that this meme be spread through the internet. I urge all commentators to adopt and spread the idea that the Republicans are "the party that wrecked America." It will work because it is the truth. Use it freely. Just spread the word.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:59 AM on 10/04/2008

This election is looking more and more like the '76 election. Carter ran more against Nixon than Ford.

Unfortunately, Obama is a lot like Carter -- too liberal. After Obama wins, look for unemployment to go up, interest rates to skyrocket, and the U.S. to get punked by Iran.

It's going to be a tough 4 years on us middle-class Americans.

Raising taxes on corporations is the same as raising taxes on the middle-class. The corporations will simply pass the cost down to us. Stock up on canned goods and water and ammunition.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:36 PM on 10/03/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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I will accept your assertion if you admit:

-That John McCain will continue the policies of Bush.
-That those policies along with those of Bush's father, Reagan, and Nixon are the policies we are living under right now (deregulation, free market rules, tax breaks for wealthy individuals and corporations, no help for anybody making less than real money, leadership through division based on ethnicity, gender, and social status, war mongering, small ineffective government, etc..).

The problem with the “if we turn from the current direction we are going to die” appeal is that we are already dying -- we are being murdered. Trickle down has failed; the jury has come back and condemned that approach. Preemption has failed, claims of the success of the surge notwithstanding.

Barack Obama is not a tax and spend liberal, he is a human being with great gifts of leadership at a time when there is a vacuum in American leadership. He will along with many others look to address the currently inequities of this society. Will he succeed? I have no idea, but I know he will not be Bush, and he will do all that he can to make a better way for more versus less.

It may already be too late for America and in some ways, the best thing that could occur would be a McCain win, so it all comes crashing down on his hard head and that of his ilk.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:22 PM on 10/03/2008

Well... first... it's a lot of policies over the last several decades that have gotten us to where we are today. Blaming it all on Bush is too simplistic. Saying it's the result of 8 years of policy is too simplistic. Wall Street and the silly banking system we operate on are the main reason we're in a pickle -- not all on the government.

No... McCain would do things a lot different than Bush; McCain is the same as Bush is a stupid talking point. That being said, McCain would't be able to prevent the coming recession, but he might keep us out of depression -- maybe not. Our economy is built on paper. The .com bubble saved Clinton from facing recession. The housing bubble saved Bush from facing recession (even though he had to deal with 9-11 and the .com bubble bursting too). We have been putting off this recession since 92, and now it's probably going to be a depression. This bailout is like giving a heroin addict a fix. In a few months, the Wall Street junkies will need another fix, or we will face a collapse -- again.
I don't mean to dog Obama. It's certainly not his fault -- young pup that he is. But raising taxes on buisnesses and corporations in a time of economic distress is a recipe for disaster. Maybe it will be good for us. At least the rich will be poor like the rest of us.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:06 PM on 10/03/2008
- super I'm a Fan of super 13 fans permalink
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Let's get this straight instead of succumbing to the republican talking points. It is the republicans who are TAX AND SPEND REPUBLICANS. I'll say that again, TAX AND SPEND REPUBLICANS! It is just that they won't spend on America, not on roads, not on levees, not on health care, not on education. They'll spend on IRAQ. And spend on Star Wars. And on Dubai-based Haliburton! And while they may cut your regular income tax by $100 or mail you a $300 rebate check, they will stick it back to you as Alternative Minimum Tax for twice that amount so that they can give $4 billion to Exxon. And John McCain will TAX YOUR HEALTH INSURANCE! Guess who wiped out the surplus and ballooned the deficit? Vote out the TAX AND SPEND REPUBLICANS.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:59 PM on 10/03/2008

Have you learned nothing after the last eight years? What have all of these corporate tax breaks done for us? How has giving to the wealthy helped our economy? Do we have more jobs? Do we have more income? Are we stable? Are we respected in the world? Do we have poverty? Do we have a surplus?

Until you pull your head out of your backside, you will never learn the lesson that Reagan and now Bush have taught us...IT DOES NOT WORK!!!!

Your fear strategy will not work here.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:43 PM on 10/03/2008
- apduncan1 I'm a Fan of apduncan1 42 fans permalink
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Do you think it would be different with another GWB administration?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:53 PM on 10/03/2008
- JBS I'm a Fan of JBS 17 fans permalink
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Doesn't matter who wins. Both parties are out to screw the working man.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:34 PM on 10/03/2008
- ggmome I'm a Fan of ggmome 13 fans permalink

There is a horse you rode in on, that has turned into an Elephant, and can't fit the door to leave. Get a clue, clueless!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:14 AM on 10/04/2008
- naschkatze I'm a Fan of naschkatze 85 fans permalink

It doesn't get to the heart of what is wrong with our economy, but we are going to have to wait and see if President Obama takes charge. I read somewhere else on HuffPo yesterday that 2/3s of our economy is a consumer economy, and Kevin Phillips calls it a FIRE economy (financial, insurance, real estate). This is a shell game, pure and simple, and the country cannot go on forever playing it. We need to get a new kind of production in our economy since manufacturing has been shipped overseas to such a large extent. Obama's suggestion of us producing clean, efficient and renewable energy is a start. Many people can return to work through a new energy industry, and this in turn can fund the rebuilding of our infrastructure.

So, making credit more available again is not necessarily a good thing. We have to produce as well as consume. And now Bernanke is talking about lowering the interest rates again. Uh, uh. We have to save as well as spend.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:30 PM on 10/03/2008
- apduncan1 I'm a Fan of apduncan1 42 fans permalink
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We don't manufacture anymore... and soon there will no production either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:06 PM on 10/03/2008

So, now what?

By Nov 4, we will either be given hope or increased despair by the outcome of the elections. Since I don't see the economy recovering by then nor even any time soon, this hopefully will translate to an Obama-Biden win. Then we will have to wait until Jan 20 to begin the long process of healing our wounds. And they are deep.

I just could not imagine having to suffer another 4 years of a 3-rd Bush term which is what a McCain-Palin win would do. The wounds would go deeper to the bone and perhaps by 2012 we would no longer resemble the USA of old but a mere shell, a banana republic with more wars, more pain and more injustice for all.

If there is a God, he could not let this happen to good people and there are many here in the USA. But we may be the generation that is saddled with the pain of a long period of decline and fall followed by a rebirth of our nation, however long that would take. I am hoping that this is not our future but rather a renaissance in Jan by an Obama-Biden win. One can only hope but then again we may be going down. I don't trust the election machinery any longer. Bush-McCain-Palin may win by fraud.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:55 PM on 10/03/2008
- GrainOSand I'm a Fan of GrainOSand 269 fans permalink
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If there is a God, that God might not let bad things happen to good people? That God might, if good people sat around distracted or indifferent, and let bad people do bad things all over the world.

If fraud occurs again in this election that may be just the trigger mechanism to open the flood gates along with everything else that is putting pressure on the dam that is holding back the mighty wave of retribution for America’s crimes -- past, present, and planned for the future.

I hope Obama and Biden win as well, but I am not convinced that in and of itself is going to cure all that ails us, for it is the collective will, courage, and humanity of the people that has gone missing for many years and that has caused the prevailing sickness of heart and spirit.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:09 PM on 10/03/2008
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