Tortured Logic
Recent reports that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder is considering appointing a prosecutor to investigate illegal torture carried out during the Bush administration is a positive sign, especially given President Obama's desire to avoid what he has called "a backward-looking" inquiry. When Holder began studying the brutal acts carried out in America's name, some of them even exceeding the horrors authorized in the infamous Justice Department torture memos, he reportedly said it "turned my stomach." In "Tortured Logic," a video released by the ACLU today, you'll hear well-known people like Oliver Stone, Rosie Perez and Philip Glass, among others, read from those chilling memos, which were disclosed as part of ACLU litigation:
While it is encouraging that Holder now understands that there were serious crimes committed that demand investigation, press reports say that he envisions an investigation narrow in scope that would focus only on low-level interrogators and contract employees. This is deeply troubling.
There is ample evidence already in the public domain that the widespread and systemic torture of detainees was authorized at the highest levels of the Bush administration. This evidence comes from congressional reports, the torture memos themselves and even the boastful admissions of officials including former vice president Dick Cheney, who has been aggressively forthright in his defense of waterboarding. But notwithstanding all this evidence, there are still those who would reduce the authorization of these crimes by government officials to discretionary policy decisions. This cannot be the case in a nation where the rule of law means anything.
It is a core premise of our democracy that in America, no one is above the law, regardless of rank or position. Going after those who carried out illegal orders while shielding those who actually gave the orders goes against the most fundamental American ideals of fairness. To date, the highest-ranking officer to be prosecuted for detainee abuse is a lieutenant colonel who was acquitted. Yet there is simply too much evidence of high-level orders to justify limiting criminal investigations to the field. In this country, we investigate crimes — no matter how powerful the suspected perpetrators — and, when appropriate, we prosecute those who broke the law. The American system of justice would be rendered meaningless if we were to start compromising our principles and laws simply because enforcing them might be politically messy, inconvenient or even painful.
We cannot move forward confidently knowing that the abuses of the past will not be repeated by future administrations as long as everyone knows that crimes were committed and that the powerful who perpetrated and enabled those crimes get off scot-free. A failure to prosecute those responsible for torture — those who authorized it, those who legally sanctioned it and those who carried it out — would essentially serve to ratify illegal behavior by government officials. The attorney general should appoint a special prosecutor who will follow the facts where they lead, whether it be to prisons overseas or to the halls of power at home.
Visit www.aclu.org/torturedlogic to share the video with a friend and to send it to Attorney General Holder with a note urging him to conduct a full investigation of torture under the Bush administration.
Follow Anthony D. Romero on Twitter: www.twitter.com/ACLU
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life is not fair so why should the application of the law be any different. if i can pay for a better lawyer i get a better application of the law. that's the real fairness of the whole system. its the american way.
All men equal, must have missed where it says the rich get better laws than the poor.
How about if you can afford to pay off the other persons attorney, you get better treatment, --- and that is what is considered the 'real fairness' in the whole system.
In other words, you are saying corruption pays, I will not argue that this is the case, we are seeing the results with the collapse of our country.
my sons pops feels the same way, that is why he destroyed his kids lives, ask his son.
Thank you Mr. Romero, This is why I'm ALCU.
Either you'll have to change the name or I'll have to get the initials right, ACLU. Card carrying member.
It's a conservative value to uphold the law. It should not be necessary to point out that it is a conservative value to uphold all laws, not just the ones you like or the ones you wish to follow. It is also a conservative value to uphold the law against violators of the law, even if you might know them, like them or they are your friends. Upholding the Constitution is perhaps the most conservative of all conservative positions. People who serve in high government positions are often sworn to uphold the Constitution. It's not optional. But all of these conservative postions imply that when accusations are made that the law has been violated, it is the responsibility of those in charge to investigate accusations of lawbreaking and, if necessary, to prosecute. Who has been yelling the loudest since 1980 for law and order? Or is it only do as I say and not as I do? Because if it's the latter, there is a name for that. Hypocrisy.
I am a Public Defender and represent criminal defendants who are poor and powerless. In their cases, the police and prosecutors don't sit around talking about putting the past behind us and moving forward. No one proposes Truth and Reconciliation Commissions for them. No one considers their possible defenses before bringing charges.
No one hesitates to bring charges against the poor and powerless. They can bring up their defenses at a trial if they want one or take the plea deal.
It should be the same with the rich and powerful. But, somehow people are weighing the political implications and looking at their possible defenses before investigating and bringing charges. They don't do it for my clients and I don't think they should do it for rich and powerful people either.
If they have defenses, they can bring them up at trial or take a plea deal, same as my clients do.
No one hesitates to bring charges against the poor and powerless. They can bring up their defenses at a trial if they want one or take the plea deal.
your right no one hesitates to bring up charges against the poor or powerless.
They can bring up their defenses at trial--- wrong, my attorneys forbid me to bring up a defense,because it would have lapped on to another case which was coming up, which was a high profile murder case, I had been so psychologically beaten up and the attorneys told me if I mentioned it, because the area was racially bias where I was at, they would go after me, it was never mentioned.
Too many attorneys are bought off.
Exactly! I represent criminal defendants and no judge ever listens to me when I use the "let's not look back" argument. Rich or poor... They should be treated the same or we will lose faith in our system. Even-handed treatment is what people look for.
Perhaps I would feel differently if we knew that we are defending our way of life. But these days, and the past couple of wars this whole thing got very convoluted. We are now fighting to protect the rich
or get them richer. Wars were fought for the people not a chosen few. Maybe our soldiers wake up to the fact that they jeopardizing their lives for this, no jobs, no healthcare.
What about the 3000 Americans in NY. What about them? I dont need liberal Hollywood telling the story of imformation gathering. Not one detainee was seriously injured.
I got a better idea. If you dont want to be waterboarded dont be a terrorist !
This really ticks me off. You get liberal hollywood to project this to the average American while liberal hollywood is tucked away, with millions of dollars in the bank and living thier sheltered lives we could only imagine.
MATT DAMON SUCKS !
OMG George. I guess you are on to something. So I am going to ask a similar question - what about all the people shot and killed every year. Oh yes, American have the right to bear arms and if you want to exercise that right join the army. Then there are all the people who die because they couldn't get to see a doctor on time since they had no insurance or their insurance said - Sorry. You had a preexisting condition. The number of people killed on 911 was miniscule compared to the number who die from smoking. So puhleeze - thinkof the number of soldiers killed in a war to gain control of oil from a dictator who was armed by the United States. Anyway, how many Iraqis have to be killed before the revenge of the crooks is completed?
geoegewetherill, you are seriously misinformed if you are so naive as to believe that no detainees were injured. I don't expect you to believe me, or to do any research yourself, as that would challenge your precious beliefs, but in fact numerous detainees have been killed or died from their injuries. Wake up and stop drinking the Kool Aid. You, and your "conservative" ilk, disgust me.
i am the only detainee on this board.
google my name to knwo what really happens..
JosieG6
I will speak out again and again..
immigratio
the poster below johnsopinion, feels it is all in your head and you should be happy like him, because his life is going well, and you need to change your point of view. Be happy about how you were treated, and what you have.
Bravo. this is the USA the world could respect. Would respect, would this be so.
Thousands and thousands of comments on the town hall fiasco--not that it isn't important--yet not even 40 here, where the subject matter is only crimes against humanity.
Not crimes against any red or blue people...m
Hardly important.
It may be because this issue is harder for people to wrap their minds around, or even a feeling of helplessness on some individual’s parts; others do not have an understanding.
In war there will always be interrogations, there will be techniques used to have people talk and give information – no matter the side. The question is when it becomes excessive, even criminal. The next question, is when we have our soldiers conduct themselves, intentionally raping, intentionally doing other acts --- what is going to happened when they come home, and now use the same on their dates, families, and community?
The answer of course to the question is anyone they come up against in private life, stands a chance at being a target and will be an insidious aspect in our own society, and no doubt there are American’s which have experience this already, in their own homes, and in their own communities. This type of mindset does not happen over night.
In my opinion we should not have any of these people prisoner.
Bang...tan
UtahPatriot removed their profile. Cowardly act.
Seems, some of the people were innocent, UtahPatroit. So, lets talk about Utah's 9/11. The day which hundreds of Americans from the South were slaughtered outside of Cedar City/ St.George Utah, at the hands of 'faithful' Utah-ians. Men, women, children,s
Seems you and johnsopinion need a different point of view, the people like Mitchell and Jessen wouldn't do and construct the horrors they did.
you all have too many passive-aggressive males, who drink too much, and are too compromised and then fill themselves with 'how great they are', while they abuse their wives and children, so they can reap the rewards of "THE LORD TAKES CARE OF HIS OWN', or translated, the sick bunnies who go along with abuse get the silver coins.
What bothers me most about the rhetoric of the right-wing people who support the Bush torture policies isn't its appalling ignorance & naivete (ALL of the people who were tortured were BAD people, NO innocent people were ever harmed, because our intelligence agencies are SO INFALLIBLE, & ONLY BY TORTURE was CRITICAL INFORMATION uncovered that NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED BY ANY OTHER MEANS, & this certainly frightened all of the terrorists abroad into being less dangerous & did nothing to swell their ranks with new recruits!). What bothers me most is the moral & ethical bankruptcy of it, the cowardly, ignoble, UNAMERICAN embracing of "the ends justifies the means" as a pseudo-patriotic standard based entirely on fear & .
Add this mindset to the list that already includes racism & McCarthyism.
'The American system of justice would be rendered meaningless if we were to start compromising our principles and laws simply because enforcing them might be politically messy, inconvenient or even painful."
Our justice system is all ready meaningless. It is to protect the aligned and the elite.
Then go after and fix the system.
My best friend lives in the past. He is 'tortured' by every conceivable slight that
he perceives has ever been done to him. It wracks his mental acuity. Sometimes
he can't function because of the intense feelings of wanting to blame someone
else for his current troubles and having been wronged by everyone. He doesn't
take responsibility for who and where he is today. He sees a psychiatrist.
I see each day as a new adventure, no matter what it brings. I look FORWARD to
the day revealing new ideas, bringing new wonders into my life and I love living.
I have been unaffected by 'the recession' or by G.W.Bush or by GM's troubles or
or the fact that I haven't had a raise in 5 years but I am better off financially than I
have ever been in the last 50 years. Those things don't matter in the grand scheme
of things.
I am blessed. You are too if you just change your Point Of View to what you have
and not what you don't have. It can be done.
johnsopinion_
opinions like yours, are ones to be disregarded. Your post was intended to be abusive.
"I am blessed. " and you are narcissist
so,what is the issue of not being allowed to respond the Johnsopinion who is out in left field.
Johnsopinion, you have been a member since Aug. 2008 and have only one friend to date.
enough said.
and fighting to change the system, I am dear, but the system is corrupt, as I am sure you are well aware.
My point of view is that once I had a lot and every day I lose some of what I had. The rich and the powerful rule and my pitiful vote only counts when the ballot machines aren't rigged. I hope I will be allowed to vote in the future but I know I can never defeqt corporate interests. I used to be satisfied but now satisfaction is not guaranteed or my money will be refunded.
"Give my liberty or give me death" is not about the liberty of the body but the soul, the spirit, and the mind. For George W. Bush's administration physical safety of the nation was the highest priority. The statement they were most proud of was that they have kept America safe. That is physically safe as an end in itself and to achieve that they violated some of our most cherished principles of civil liberties.
Physical torture is a tool of dictatorships; physical torture is the province of those governments that live in fear of being overthrown; physical torture is a tool of survival for regimes that are illegitimate.
Our government as a whole does not fall in any of those categories and we should be grateful to ACLU and other institutions and individuals who fight to keep our democracy intact. Nothing should prevent our Attorney General Eric Holder as the nation's top law-enforcement officer to bring to justice those who violated the foundation of the republic for which we stand.
Physical and psychological torture are both tools, and used together most often.
Have one exhausted, physically and psychologically the torture whether physical or psychological is of a more intense nature.
Congress allocated 40 million dollars of taxpaer money to discover that President Clinton had extra marital relations. Would today's Congress declare that investigating torture is too low of a priority for them to investigate?
No... that was to investigate and convict Clinton for perjury and he was ultimately impeached.
Technically, yes. But we know what it was really about.
It was to investigate Whitewater, with regards to which nothing was found, and then they turned it into a marital witchhunt, which prompted the perjury. They were spending that kind of money to get the President to admit to extra-marital behavior. You think that was money well-spent?
(And if memory serves, the impeachment failed.)
Pres. Clinton would not have perjured himself if the Right had not been constantly looking for some fault or bit of wrong-doing. Don't fool yourself into thinking that the perjury came before the investigations.
My thanks to the ACLU and all of the people participating in the video. I hope this is the 1st video in a series of videos where famous people and not so famous people will be recorded speaking out on torture and restoring the rule of law.
I'd like to see a video that features people from all political persuasions represented. Our establishment media has tried to portray this rule of law issue as a liberal only issue so we MUST show Americans that this issue is not just something that interests liberals. They need to know that there are conservatives and moderates, Republicans, Democrats, Independents, Greens, etc. who are demanding accountability. We must break through the media filter.
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