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Anya Kamenetz

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Online Education and the Laying on of Hands

Posted: 05/18/10 06:02 PM ET

I had an excellent, thought-provoking discussion last week at UC San Diego courtesy of iGrad with a really well-chosen group of professors: Dr. Beyer of National University, a nonprofit online university that is the second-largest private institution in California; Dr. Allison Rossett, a professor of Educational Technology at San Diego State; Joe Safdie, a poet who teaches at San Diego Mesa Community college; and Monte Johnson, a philosophy prof at UCSD whose field is Aristotle.

Johnson was especially good to have on the panel because he's a principled, absolutist opponent of online education. He said repeatedly that while he could abide the use of hybrid models and online resources to supplement the classroom experience, he thought it was "absurd" to pretend that a degree granted entirely online could possibly approach the quality of one in the traditional classroom. He handed out a Xerox (not available online) of a list of references to research critical of the quality of online classes; on the opposite side was this letter signed by hundreds of professors objecting to Washington State's "2020 Commission on the Future of Higher Education" , strenuously objecting to the commission's recommendations about accountability, productivity, and increased availability of online classes.

It's easy to satirize the position of someone defending the status quo, who trivializes and dismisses "education by CD-ROM and internet" out of motives that include inherent conservativism and fear of losing one's own job and respected position in society. There was more than a whiff of that spirit in the room. But I think Johnson made some really good points that should be taken under consideration, not to stall this transformation but to guide it.

1) Open educational resources don't equal education. Access to a video of a lecture is not the same as access to a class. Content is infrastructure -- the first step.
2) We can't codify exactly what might be lost in the transition from online to in-person learning, but it pays to look at what goes on in the classroom really really closely so we can either replicate it or enhance it in the online environment, or supplement it with real-world experience in hybrid models. At one point I asked Johnson what it is exactly that he does in his philosophy class that he thinks can't be done online. "Do you teach through the laying on of hands?" No, he said, but I look people in the eye, I call on them, we converse back and forth. Safdie mentioned then that he teaches through videoconference, which also involves a form of eye contact; platforms like Moodle allow for plenty of either real-time text-based chat or posting on a Facebook-like wall, which seems like a fine way to discuss philosophy to me -- not too different in fact from the promulgation of ideas through a series of written papers in dialogue with each other, like at a symposium for example.

3) From the Washington letter: "One of the problems with the newest crop of distance-learning institutions is that they are motivated entirely by profit."

This is true. The gauntlet has been thrown down. Public institutions need to get involved in defining online education or it will be defined for them by a set of institutions with very different agendas.

4) "In reality a privileged few will continue to enjoy the personal and economic benefits of face-to-face instruction at schools like Stanford, UC Berkeley, and M.I.T. The less fortunate citizens of our state will make do with downsized and underfunded campuses or settle for inferior and dehumanizing "virtual" alternatives."

The thought of a two-tiered system like this makes me queasy. Online-enabled higher education doesn't have to be inferior or dehumanizing. It can represent the best of what education has to offer today. Yet there's a danger that this will turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The DIY U future allows community college students anywhere in the country to access the same number of library books, the same lectures and course materials as are available at MIT and Stanford. It can also allow students to collaborate across institutions and form networks of peers and mentors outside the state and city where they happen to live and go to school. In this way there's a potential to overcome old hierarchies. But it's not a given that things will turn out this way.

The reality today is that students with the fewest resources are at the institutions with the fewest resources, and that those who are accessing online-only educational programs are doing so largely because they have to work while they go to school.

If people who care about both quality and equality in higher education don't get deeply involved in the use of technology to stretch the resources we have in order to educate everyone to the best of our ability and their abilities, then the future will be shaped by people with worse motives and visions.

 
 
 

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01:24 PM on 05/26/2010
I received my BS from a brick and mortar public university in Michigan in 2003 immediately following high school. Email was barely used then. I have worked in my desired field since graduation but decided to go back for my MS in 2007. I looked at the same program at several different schools and after about a year of deliberation (mostly due to the prohibitive costs) I decided to return to my alma mater. The one big difference from my undergraduate studies was that now classes were also offered online. I had never taken an online class and was able to complete my MS without stepping foot on campus. The sense of community is not lost through online learning. It offers the opportunity to understand different perspectives of the discipline from students all over the world. Online classes by no means are a "work at your own" pace sort of deal. They are strictly regimented, deadline driven courses that required more reading and writing than I even did in a regular classroom setting. Virtual classrooms force the involvement of its students through discussion threads, assignments, and collaborative efforts. It requires the student to take a very active role in their learning while allowing the freedom of not being stuck to a specific classroom schedule. Both my degrees are from the same public university, one done entirely old school and the other entirely online, and from my experience, neither automatically have the upper hand. Learning lies with the student.
11:28 PM on 05/24/2010
How does one teach the next great thing? NEW ways, products, businesses, technology, etc. Learning the basics isn't the end all of education and doesn't need to cost $30-200k to learn.
01:34 AM on 05/24/2010
I'm a teacher at a for-profit college. My concern in all of this is one of quality. I understand that these schools have a role to play. Though much more expensive, for-profit schools are not as limited space-wise as many of their public counterparts. That said, I believe there's a type of fraud by omission going on. They're selling the potential for a better job and a better life but they don't make clear that there are aspects of the educating process that aren't only about pay and career. Students are not made aware that English and history and other "non-technical" subjects are part of college, and these classes exist for a reason that cannot be explained solely in terms of monetary gain and career advancement. Perhaps my understanding of education is too limited and old-fashioned (though I am not that old myself), but I think that these companies are creating a divide between those people who are taught to value the liberal arts ideal and those who are taught to just get in and get out of school. The latter may do better than they would've done without the degree, but they will not be able to compete with the student who is more well rounded because of her liberal arts degree. This may've always been the case, but the difference is that students coming out of for-profit institutions are going into debt at almost the same degree as those who attend Harvard.
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Coloradogary
08:18 PM on 05/23/2010
I'm taking online classes for the summer, and last semester enjoyed both traditional and online classes. In all situations, I have an instructor just moments away.

I don't need a babysitter to get my assignments completed online, but I do miss the pretty girl who sat next to me in English 121.
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MyFatCat
I'm paid in catnip
03:44 PM on 05/21/2010
One thing I don't see argued well here is the difference a community makes. The concentration of smart, driven, personal contact with passionate people who care and who have to engage face-to-face is not the same as what happens online. What you say and how you say it depends very much on how much you believe in the humanity of the person reading your words. Writing isn't like talking. Typing isn't like meeting. Work is a very social event and time spent with technology--which instantly responds to you with just what you command, unlike people--really can diminish social interaction.

I'm not against online education. However, what happens online tends to be about information, not education. The difference matters; informed, I make better decisions, but to stretch my boundaries of thought, I have to be educated. And that's a process that needs the durability of personal relationship.
05:02 PM on 05/21/2010
I think this was what I was trying to touch on as well. I think you hit the nail on the head when you brought up 'community' and 'social interaction.'

at the end of the day, everyone learns differently. I know my needs for learning are much different than my co-workrs, my friends, my family.

My mom, who is still trying to raise two 14 year olds, is enrolled in an online school. I am so proud of her and for her this totally makes sense. She is so busy with the kids and their schedules and taking care of my grandfather, that the liberty that online school gives is incredible.

I on the other end want the human interaction and I want the structure. And I want to know the face behind the assignments and the information. However, online classes may be in my future...we shall see.
12:47 AM on 05/21/2010
First, which online college is professing that they are equal to Stanford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, et al? If they aren't claiming equality, why are we constantly measuring against those? Why aren't we measuring against Western Yourstate U and East Podunk Community College? Might the online programs be at least as good, if not better, than those lower tier traditional colleges?

Then the "interaction with peers" argument. Adults with a full-time job, family, hobbies, and church don't need any more peer interaction in their lives. They certainly don't need the social network of a group of 17-21 year-old 'tweens' found in the traditional classroom. These online programs and for-profits are serving an entirely different audience that doesn't generally include those 17-21 year-old students.

How about the interaction with professors? We're talking about the sort of interaction gained from sitting in a lecture hall while a 23 year-old grad student that has yet to see "the real world" teaches some veterans all about history, other cultures, or politics or teaches the general manager at the local plant about how business works in a text book. Is that really appropriate?

Then the for-profit argument. I'll bite, what part of being a for-profit impacts educational outcomes differently than being a non-profit or public? We're talking about a mode of operation and tax status, not pedagogical methods. If we want to argue that some of these use poor methods then let's say so.
05:13 PM on 05/20/2010
"and that those who are accessing online-only educational programs are doing so largely because they have to work while they go to school." This hits the nail on the head (personally). Attendance requirements at traditional schools are for kids just out of high school; as a 31 year old paying finishing her undergrad, I am insulted by the notion that my ability to learn is directly related to my derriere filling a plastic seat. Also, I dispute the fact that an online education cannot be meaningful. Because I am untethered, so to speak, with no professor lecturing me or painful conversations with fellow classmates, I am free to set my own learning agenda. I am free to study when I please, or write, or research on my own time. Being untethered forces you to pay attention while inspiring your creativity.

I'm just biased, I suppose, having had generally poor experiences with traditional brick and mortar institutions. I have an online degree, and I only felt the need to take one class on campus. I won't go back for an MBA; I don't see what value that would add to my life or career.
06:19 PM on 05/19/2010
I am trying to be very open minded about online classes as I myself want to go back to school, but don't see how it would be possible to do so without a full-time job as I need the salary to pay my bills and support myself. That being said, I think everyone learns in different ways and I am not sure an online class would be best for the way I study and learn. I also believe I would truly miss the daily interactions, for getting up every morning, going to class, talking to different people different types of people' really helps build character as well as helps you learn more than you may have thought you were learning.

I would love to see online schools become just as prestigious as colleges and not something put into place just for convienence. I also hope that undergrad schools do not move to online. I think that would really hurt young students who need human interaction to mature and teachers to look up to as role models.
05:14 PM on 05/20/2010
Not all undergrad students are young; at 31, I was one of the youngest people in my online class. On campus, I was definitely the oldest.
12:53 AM on 05/21/2010
It may be true that "young students" need that live interaction with faculty and other students. Do you also propose that a 40-year-old retired veteran of the USMC with a family and a job who has hobbies and attends his church weekly also needs that interaction with 17-21 year old students and some 23 year old grad assistants?

That 40 year old retired USMC vet also goes to college. How does he benefit from socializing with students the age of his children? He and those like him are who these programs are really suited for. We need to remember that college isn't "advanced high school" and there is no upper age limit in there.
04:53 PM on 05/21/2010
Totally agree with both of you. I don't think a 40-year old retired veteran needs to interact with 17-21 year olds either, I cant imagine either age group wanting that. And sorry to generalize, or rather for not being more clear. I still stand firm on my belief of not wanting undergrad to go totally online, but I think it would be awesome for each and every undergrad school to have an online program as well. That way those who are older could have their way and those who are younger can still have the benefits that I feel are important.

hope that clears up some issues...
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Aroon
01:18 PM on 05/26/2010
Yes, you may not need interaction with anybody because you are trained to do your job independantly. But ff you start interacting with young, you will be surprised at the number of youngsters who will look at you as role model. I was 24 year old MS student, when I met this 54 year old Civil Engineer who was also MS student. I learned a lot from him about how to become suucessful employee.
10:57 AM on 05/19/2010
I’ve had experiences with both. I have a business degree at a traditional university and now after working 4 years I’ve decided to get my accounting degree on-line What’s the difference in these two different times I’ve gone to college? My type of learning hasn’t changed. Having someone talk at me in a lecture with 200 other students doesn’t work. I still learn by reading, examples, problems, papers, and projects. That is what my on-line classes consist of. I will agree that at times I do miss the student interaction and even the student-teacher interaction, but I need health insurance and a full paycheck. A traditional university wasn’t an option when I went back for my accounting degree. It doesn’t fit into what is going on in my life right now.

Also, two things I’ve noticed that in my on-line classes I don’t feel like another number like the big universities and all of my professors answer my questions in clear English.
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Insanity rules
09:46 AM on 05/19/2010
My online courses were better than most of my face to face courses. I learned more, I made more external connections to the material because of the variety of people from around the world who were giving their perspectives in the discussions. There are good and bad online programs depending on how the college looks at distance whether for profit or non profit. I work in the distance education field supporting classes and instructors and I graduated with most classes taken online. You've missed some very important points of why people go "online". It's not because it's cheaper or easier. It is more feasible for someone with a job and family to do the course work anytime, any place than it is for them to travel to class on campus. Also if you spoke to people who have taught a quality course online they will most likely tell you they became a better face to face teacher because of the idea that the online courses are student centered. This new type of learning is a threat to the establishment. It's disruptive technology that is making a huge change in the way we learn and teach.
12:14 PM on 05/21/2010
It seems to me that a lot of people arguing either side have experience from only one side of the fence. Let's hear more from those who, like insanity, have seen both sides.

I have five degrees at the bachelor's and master's level - earned traditionally, online, and hybrid from tier-1 to tier-4 and including one "unranked". I'm here to share that the online experience wasn't the poorest education, it was among the better. One of my 'in-the-seat' traditionals was the most tremendous waste of time and money you can imagine.

My real point though; if you haven't done both then it doesn't matter what you think about them because you have no real frame of reference. How many of the anti-online critics have done both? For that matter, how many have done either in the 21st century?
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oregon bird
05:32 AM on 05/19/2010
The on-line universities are trash, run by thieves. There are thousands of personal reports from people who've had their futures blighted by the fiancial shenanigans of these "institutions". Most of the reports document poor education, lack of response from administrators, no attempt to fulfill the educational requirements that the student needs. But collecting money from every possible source? At this, the on-line university succeeds. Some students despair at their inability to shake these vultures off, in order to use the money to gain a true education. Attorneys won't take up their cases, and there are, as yet, no useful class-action cases to hold over these bogun institutions.

A little improvement, please.
08:22 PM on 05/18/2010
This was wriiten in the College Inc. Section the Washington Post by Daniel de Vise 5/7/10

Harris Miller, president of the Career Colleges Association “tries to remind reporters "that for profit is a tax status, not a financial status. Harvard has to run a profit every year. Otherwise, they'd shut down." He reminds his critics in not-for-profit education that "I don't think it's in our collective best interest to be shouting at each other." For-profits, he said, are "serving a group of students who have been abandoned by the higher education system."
For-profits charge more than state universities but less than private universities, at least in terms of sticker price. For-profit students tend to carry more debt after completion than their counterparts in other sectors. That's partly because for-profit students are more likely self-supporting and, well, poor.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2010/05/for-profits_frontline_and_coll.html#more