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Art Markman, Ph.D.

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Punishment Helps Kids Learn To Lie

Posted: 01/03/12 12:17 PM ET

Here's a news flash. Parenting is hard. There are so many competing goals. We want to raise happy kids, but also good kids who will do the right thing. We want our kids to be smart, honest, kind, and generous. And ideally we would do all of that while being nurturing all the time.

Of course, the real world doesn't make it easy to be a nurturing parent. Kids have minds of their own. They want to explore the world, to try new things, and to make their own mistakes. They push the limits of the rules we create, and they find ways to push our buttons.

Most parents manage to strike a balance between being a nurturing and loving parent and having to punish when necessary.

What happens when the balance swings too far toward punishment?

There is some research suggesting that when children grow up in an environment with extensive physical and verbal punishment they are at risk for behavioral problems as they get older.

A fascinating study by Victoria Talwar and Kang Lee in the November, 2011 issue of Child Development explored how an environment with lots of punishment affects lying in 3- and 4-year-old children.

The study took advantage of a natural experiment in a West African country. In this country (not identified in the paper), there was a long history of corporal punishment in the schools including beatings when children did something wrong. Although corporal punishment has been outlawed in the public schools in the country, private schools are still allowed to use it. The researchers went to one private preschool that used corporal punishment and a second that did not.

To explore lying, the children were first given a temptation. The experimenter told the children that a toy was being hidden behind them. The experimenter said that she had to leave the room for a moment and that the child should not turn around and peek at the toy while she was gone.

This situation is quite tempting, and most children end up turning around and looking at the toy. When the experimenter returns, she asks the children whether they peeked.

At the school where the children are punished often, about 90 percent of them lied to the experimenter and said that they did not look at the toy. In the school that did not use harsh punishments, only about half of the children lied.

Of course, young children are often bad liars. So, the experimenter asked a follow-up question. She asked the children who lied to guess what they thought the toy was. Children who are bad liars will identify the toy that they saw. Good liars will not let on that they know what the toy is.

In this study, about 70% of the children from the school that did not use harsh punishment identified the toy when asked. Only about 30% of the students from the school that used harsh punishment identified the toy.

Putting this together, the children who went to the school where they got harsh punishments were more likely to lie and were better liars than the ones who went to the school where they were not punished harshly.

Ultimately, even young children learn survival skills. In situations where they are being severely punished, children learn ways to avoid that punishment. They learn how to lie and how to do it effectively. As children get older, those lies get bitter.

In the end, even though punishment seems to work to keep children in line, it ultimately increases the bad behaviors it aims to stop.

 
 
 

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Here's a news flash. Parenting is hard. There are so many competing goals. We want to raise happy kids, but also good kids who will do the right thing. We want our kids to be smart, honest, kind, ...
Here's a news flash. Parenting is hard. There are so many competing goals. We want to raise happy kids, but also good kids who will do the right thing. We want our kids to be smart, honest, kind, ...
 
 
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01:21 AM on 01/06/2012
Children generally lie to get out of trouble, not into trouble.

There is a difference between punishment and consequences. Punishment is usually given in anger and haste by the parent. Punishment such as smacking or hitting is always about the parents own anger and frustration and not about disciplining the child. Today I heard a story where a grandparent got a fright when the child ran toward the street so she gave the child a smack on the bum to "tell" the child it's not okay to go near the road. That smack was given because the grandparent got a fright when in actual fact she should have been watching the child. If you have to hit a child you've lost the battle to your own anger.

I've not ever read one study that shows that getting smacks and hits works as an effective form of discipline and helps a child become well adjusted.

Consequence has to fit the "crime".
08:29 PM on 01/05/2012
I believe in using a reward system for compliance. For instance, for every "A" grade that my daughter brings home on her end of term report card, she gets $5. I'd be spending that on cell minutes or iTunes cards anyway but at least now, I'm getting something for my money, too. She has been a 4.0 student since first grade (she's now a sophmore in h.s.) and she has risen to the bait. I coudln't be happier and for the money it's been worth it to me to see her doing well. She'll go onto college and make a career for her herself in Zoology. That's her goal. It's important also to teach children that education is crucial for their future lifestyle and to be independent and able to take care ofthemselves and make confident decisions. And let them know that you trust their abilities to do so, or that you will make sure that with your help, you will find the resources to get them the help and guidance that will help them realize their own goals.
08:18 PM on 01/05/2012
This study doesn't surprise me at all. The reason most children and adults lie is that they don't want to be embarassed at being caught lying, don't want someone's favorable opinion of them to be tainted or, as in the case of work, don't want to be fired or reprimanded. If lying gets you out of uncomfortable or unfavorable situations (parties, dates, assignments, etc) then that's what people tend to do, rahter than just saying, "no thanks, not interested in doing that".
08:05 PM on 01/05/2012
Corporal punishment should be against the law....even though I don't want the government in my private life; nor do I want to see children hit and soap put in their mouth. There are other ways to reach a child; other than the barbaric measures some parents use to discipline their children. I'm sorry but I don't see how punishing a child with violence solves anything other than starting them on a road to be violent to their children. Time outs are okay and privileges taken away; but hitting is NEVER OKAY.
10:03 AM on 01/05/2012
Seems like experimental psychology has gone backwards since B F Skinner retired.

The results obtained are obvious, being exactly what the theory of operant conditioning would predict, but the conclusions drawn from those results are not correct. The study does not demonstrate that "a punitive environment fosters dishonesty". Behavioural theory (as well as common sense) predicts that lying can be induced by the prospect of reward as well as the fear of punishment. If the experiment were modified so that the children were promised a treat for not looking at the toy, a high proportion of them would lie, regardless of whether they had any prior experience of corporal punishment.

Leaping to an unwarranted conclusion and failing to design the experiment to account for an obvious prediction of a well-known theory render the study worse than useless.

The study is so obviously flawed and so poorly designed that is dismaying to see that it even got published. It makes one question the intelligence, competence and integrity not only of the researchers, but also of the journal editors and reviewers.

By the way, it is safe to assume that the unnamed West African country is Ghana.
08:00 AM on 01/05/2012
Children are all born Honest We-and the World make them Lie !
07:51 PM on 01/04/2012
I raised 4 well adjusted, happy and successful adults who have children of their own. As a new great grandmother I have a bit of advice that may help:
1. Pick your battles carefully... does the "crime" really need to be punished or simply addressed and let go.
2. never ask a question you know the answer to. This invites the possibility of a lie. State what you know, what you don't like about it and decide if its a battle that needs to be won
3. Don't punish for the sake of punishment. Give the child a chance to think about the consequences outside of him/herself that the misdeed may cause.
4. Make the punishment swift and final.. If you say no.. mean no.
5. No child should ever be put down or verbally abused. Rather let them know that you expect a lot because they are worthy and capable.
It worked for me.
02:50 AM on 01/05/2012
I agree with you. You cannot dismiss punishment all together, even if it means the kids will lie to get out of it or get their way. That's natural. It's the fact that the punishment teaches them right from wrong, and hopefully by the time they are adults they realize it.

But some parents are too forceful, and punish things that really don't matter. Peeking at a toy for example is not a big deal. Parents need to set a standard of respect. Show that you mean busniess but don't mess around. If you are angry all the time and throw out punishments left and right, the kid will rebel and resent you. If you show them clearly what they did wrong, and what the acceptable behavior is, and then most importantly reward their good behavior, they will try harder to please you.

And child will tell you they would rather make their parents mad then hear the 'we're dissapointed in you' speech. So don't raise your hands; choose your words wisely and get the point across.
07:04 PM on 01/04/2012
my mom understands that children are children and not small adults so she never spanked or yelled at us she only yelled if we raised our voice at her because her mother was judgemental,loud and embarrising.But my dad yelled for everything and thats why my youngest sister hates him and I hate him too.I love my mother for being reasonable,yet kind and we respect her for being patient and she is my rolemodel for life because having 3 daughters,working all the time,and having a lazy no job disgraceful husband would give me stress and anger me but my mom handled it.
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gingersaff
feelings are not facts
06:29 PM on 01/04/2012
I believe that lying is a part of our primate heritage. It always bothers me that CPS counselors try to float the idea that "children never lie" when it comes to trial testimony... that they are somehow corrupted as they age but are born unable to prevaricate. An animal researcher wrote about opening the lab one morning, only to find that one of the chimps that was part of he and his partner's sign language project had defecated in his food bowl instead of the proper bucket, located away from the food source. He communicated his displeasure and asked "What is that?", pointing to the pile in the cage. The chimp did not skip a beat and immediately blamed the other human who was not present... in essence, signing "it's Joe's poop". Lying presents all kinds of advantages and rewards to the liar not the least of which is escaping a bad consequence for one's actions. I would think that as soon as any child (or chimp) discovers the incentive, they will lie routinely until they are taught not to, and even those who learn not to lie will continue to do so if the incentives presented by the situation are large enough. They say that one of out 25 people are sociopaths (non-empathetic); it wouldn't surprise me if they are great liars as kids.
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DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
10:21 PM on 01/04/2012
"It always bothers me that CPS counselors try to float the idea that 'children never lie' when it comes to trial testimony.­.. that they are somehow corrupted as they age but are born unable to prevaricat­e."

I think that it's not so much that "children never lie" but in that circumstance a young child would be more likely to lie to protect the parent (claim that there is no abuse when abuse is actually happening) than to tell a lie to incriminate the parent (claim that there is abuse when no abuse has actually occurred.) As children get older, they may feel more justified in falsely incriminating a parent. And, of course, none of this takes into account how much a child might be manipulated by a parent before CPS is involved.

"They say that one of out 25 people are sociopaths (non-empat­hetic); it wouldn't surprise me if they are great liars as kids." This is probably true.
05:22 PM on 01/04/2012
For our kids there is no punisment for doing something wrong. It gives Us a chance to let them know why not to do it again. But there is punishment for lying to Us for any reason.
My kids have learned to be a stand up person even if you did something wrong and that telling the truth is the correct thing to do even in this world of well you all know what We have out side your doors.
My son also has learned that He doesn't have to worry about making up a lye and then getting caught in the future.
My hope is that when they gorw older through their teens they'll continue and let Us help them through even the hardest maturing years.
04:58 PM on 01/04/2012
We've raised 5 children, some have lied, and gotten caught, some have lied and not gotten caught in the lie, and some have never lied to us. Same upbringing, same parents, same rules. My husband and I agreed early on that we would not impose corporal punishment, we had both been exposed to it as children and swore that we did not want our children to be afraid of us. We also vowed not to embarrass them or humiliate them, again our own experiences led us to this decision.

We both believe that discipline is important, and so we chose to use time outs and loss of privileges as consequences. Amazingly, with 5 children all born within 5 years, we found that peer pressure, or sibling pressure, was the greatest disciplinarian. I think parents have to agree on consequences, they have to be consistent, and be willing to go the distance. We managed to survive a school quarter of our then 13 year old son having absolutely no privileges, since he decided it was okay to fail, he just wanted to be average. It wasn't easy to hear how mean we were, how much he hated us, how he was going to run away if we didn't let him watch tv, play video games or go out. We prevailed, he graduated High School with honors, went to an Ivy League school and is a Jr Exec for a large company. You just have to be willing to go the distance.
02:35 PM on 01/04/2012
hey people, i accept any suggestions on how to make kids obey without spanking them or taking away things they like as a punishment!!!
Any ideas, please!!!
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Conuly
04:13 PM on 01/04/2012
Obey whom, and under what circumstances?
06:21 PM on 01/04/2012
Zod, always.
09:12 AM on 01/05/2012
i don't know, just generally speaking!!!
04:25 PM on 01/04/2012
so I should say I am not a parent but an aunt, but here goes :)

1) Before anything, have a complete and honest rethink about when and why you ask a child to obey you. A lot of times I have noticed parents telling children to not do things simply for their own convenience. Also know some parents that let their kids decide things for themselves A LOT and it seems to work well, even with very little ones.

2) Some actions have natural consequences. As much as is safe and possible let them find out the consequences.

3) Calm and patience, which is difficult. So if a kid is making a mess, tell them they will have to clean it up. And wait it out. Even if you have to physically ' hug' them to keep them still until they agree to clean it up. The low boredon threshold will get to them first. As long as it is done as a matter of fact consequence and not out of anger or frustration.

4) Always warn them of the 'punishment' in a matter of fact way ( eg 'you will have to ...' etc) first, then carry it through without anger. Make it about consequence, not punishment. In life, it is the consequences of our negative actions that hurt us.
09:12 AM on 01/05/2012
thanks for the advise!! i liked it, specially the part of doing a rethink, you are right, some times we do ask our kids to do something just because we want to, and that's it. i will put this into practice!!
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Daigham
Totally Open to discuss whatever
01:22 PM on 01/04/2012
I liked the portion about the study but isn't it common knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong) that children will develop behavioral issues if they are abused? Mr. Markman stated this as "extensive verbal and physical punishment" but did not clearly connect it with parents abusing their children. Nice article anyways
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jf12
Esta vez saldré como las otras y me escaparé.
11:03 AM on 01/04/2012
Pretty good study, but not enough information to justify the conclusion. How about rewards? "Everybody who doesn't look will get ice cream."
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DianaLynn1967
It's a great life if you don't weaken!
10:35 PM on 01/04/2012
Actually, this just compounds the likelihood that the child will lie about not having peeked. Afterall, s/he will want the ice cream.

Here's a story about rewards and how they can backfire. When I was in the eighth grade I had almost perfect attendance. That is, it was perfect until nearly the end of the year when I ended up with some nasty virus that left me feeling dizzy and faint (I had to be escorted out to my mom's car so that if I passed out there'd be someone there to grab me.)

The next week awards were handed out and I actually did get a plaque for perfect attendance. Some of my school mates gave me a hard time because I had gotten the award but had been absent the previous week due to my illness. Eventually, some adult (I don't remember who--a teacher or something) said to me "Well you don't really deserve the award, but you can keep it anyway."

Would it surprise you to know that the next year I had a "screw you!" attitude when it came to attendance (and other things too)?

Moral of the story--rewards are no better than punishments. Both encourage children to do things for the wrong reasons.
01:10 PM on 01/06/2012
I would probably say your response was natural. You expected a reward based on your effort to have perfect attendance. Even though you got the award, your school mates and adults commented that you did not deserve the award. Those undue and unreasonable comments took away all your effort at achieving perfect attendance. That is what changed your attitude - because they gave you a punishment that you did not deserve. They basically nullified your reward. So rewards do work if people around you dont nullify them.
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SecularAdvocate
Media Watcher
06:01 AM on 01/04/2012
An interesting truth. Good luck finding funding for further studies! The people holding the purse strings won't want to shell out to be told something they don't want to hear.