Aubrey Sarvis

Aubrey Sarvis

Posted: August 25, 2008 12:28 PM

Anxious Democrats

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The Democrats are swarming into Denver. Now they just have to take the rest of the country (while hanging on to Denver). The mile high city is filled with hopeful anticipation - and thousands of delegates, protesters, lobbyists, journalists from the new as well as the old media, souvenir dealers, souvenir hunters, and camp followers of every sort. For the Democrats, happy times are here again. We've heard this song before, of course.

But there is the Hillary factor. The apprehension is palpable. It's true, a Clinton spokesman has announced she will release her delegates. The question is, how many of those delegates want to be released. In another mollifying gesture, the Party has decided to seat the Michigan and Florida delegations. Happy times are here again? The Democrats sure hope so. It's no longer about Hillary, it's about winning in November.

Senator Clinton knows that, too. And she knows what she has to do. She has to go out there and do everything she possibly can to help Barack Obama move into the White House on January 20th. Her biggest job is to convince her most ardent supporters that they, too, must move on with her. She's got to convince them to work as hard as she is to insure victory in November. If you doubt that she's working hard, look at her schedule.

An early and steadfast Clinton supporter, former Apple general counsel and head of the Human Rights Campaign Elizabeth Birch, dismisses any suggestion that Hillary isn't doing her part. "She's stumping the country for the ticket, imploring her supporters to work for and vote for Barrack. No one is going to be able to say Hillary didn't fight to put him in the White House." And we all know what a fighter Hillary can be.

But Frankie Sue DelPapa, the former Democratic Attorney General of Nevada, and a big Hillary supporter in the silver state, fears that not enough of Hillary's supporters have gotten the word. "One of my old supporters and a big Hillary fan came up to me over the weekend and said she just couldn't bring herself to vote for Obama," DelPapa told me. "I was stunned."

Fortunately for Senator Obama, there are thousands and thousands of Democrats like DelPapa out there, Hillary supporters who live in the real world and are now working for Senator Obama. DelPapa expects to campaign with Senator Clinton for Obama when Clinton returns to Nevada next month. She thinks it's even more important that she be out there with Clinton than with Obama.

Of course, the McCain camp is jumping on the Hillary thing and doing its best to make sure her supporters stay really, really mad - mad enough to vote for McCain in November. That would defy logic, but who said that politics was logical?

For more Huffington Post coverage from the Democratic National Convention, visit our Politics @ the DNC page, our Democratic Convention Big News Page, and our HuffPost bloggers' Twitter feed, live from Denver.

 
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- brownswan I'm a Fan of brownswan 3 fans permalink

The comedienne on "Saturday Night Live" who, while impersonating Senator Clinton, crowed that she was the best choice because Obama supporters would switch to her -- they had nowhere else to turn -- while her supporters whould never go to Obama, because they are 'racist.' All this spoken through a bright Hillary-esque smile. It was funny and sad at the same time, because it contained an element of truth.

Also, many of Clinton's supporterts were there simply to support a woman, this woman in particular: long-suffering, but tough; smart and politically skilled. They supported a single issue, the advance of women's rights through the first female President of the US. When they lost that cause, it was to be expected that they would want to punish the one responsible for their loss: Barack Obama.

I expect Senator Obama to win the election in spite of the minority of "Democrats" who refuse to support him, and I also think he already has a cabinet position in mind for Hillary Clinton, and has spoken with her about it. It is clear from his selection of Joe Biden that he intends to gather people around him who will disagree with him as strongly as they will support him.

In this, Obama takes on the mantle the Republicans rejected long ago, that of Lincoln.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:35 AM on 08/26/2008

This has happened before. When Howard Dean (my hero) was put out of the running by the 'enhanced scream' played up by the Republicans and the MEDIA a thousands times.... the Deaniacs all said they refused to vote for Kerry...even threatened to vote for Bush. And Howard wasn't exactly that grand about endorsing Kerry. And there were hundreds of Republicans PAID to come into the blogs (and the media) and push that idea (which they're doing again). In the end, I'd say most of us voted for Kerry and some just didn't vote. I think it happens in every election.

I was for Hillary for awhile, but the uplifting, motivating message of Barack Obama, changed my mind. And they made fun of his 'hope' and inspiring words. That was sad. WHO would make fun of that?! It's hard to watch the torch passed on to the younger generation... I can only hope Hillary and Bill will be the people we've come to love and admire so much --the "Mother and Father' image of the party. We could use them. With the mess the Republicans have left us, we'll need everyone working together to save ourselves.. Barack Obama is the world's best MOTIVATER..and that's exactly what we need.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:55 PM on 08/26/2008
- mommadona I'm a Fan of mommadona 160 fans permalink
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Well, that's what you get when you allow a 'cult following' rather than a focus as a group.

The irony?
Most of these women who "can't bring themselves" to vote for Obama will be adversely affected by a vote for McCain...e­conomicall­y and socially.

In other words, they are willing to vote AGAINST their own personal interests in order to vote FOR HillBill DLC interests, which ALSO, IRONICALLY, are against their interests - economically.

Oh, what webs we weave when in order to deceive.

The Clintonian DLC is going to be OUT OF POWER when this convention ends, and boy - they are NOT happy campers....their economic Chamber of Commerce-K­-Street-en­abled lives DEPEND on fooling some of the people all of the time.

Eliminate Blue Dogs.
Take back the Party.
Take back America.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:26 AM on 08/26/2008
- SMAGGIE I'm a Fan of SMAGGIE 6 fans permalink

You Obamamaniacs know exactly why Obama may win this election. IT IS because he is running on the democratic ticket. Everyone is fed up with what G.W. has done to our country, BUT just because O is on the democratic ticket DOES NOT MEANTHAT HE CAN do ANYTHING FOR our country. He is going to give away much money THAN the repubs, but he will give it to the 3rd world countries and not even bat an eye. He has said over and over he WILL raise taxes, that is the reason he is going to take in so much more money. If you like to pay taxes, that is your opinion. I am not in favor or giving my TAXES to foreign countries, we need the money here in OUR COUNTRY. One more thing about Obama, do you know what NARAL is? If not you should definitely go there because OBAMA is a member and goes along with their opinions. As for me, the late term abortion is the same as murder, unless you give that baby a chance at life. It doesn't matter what needs to be done, the baby has just as much right to live as ANY PERSON!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:16 PM on 08/25/2008
- Stirner I'm a Fan of Stirner 20 fans permalink
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I recall the old saying "The Democrats will never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity". Here they are, unable to find a winning candidate against a miserable Republican administration. They deserve to lose.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:09 PM on 08/25/2008

Neither Hillary or Bill have done what they need to do to swing those delegates to Obama .. A disgusting example of party leadership! While the question should be whether we can subject our country to 4 more years of failed Bush Policies, these two are acting like it's their birth right to be in the White House. If they loved this country, and were really concerned with the dire importance of turning the downward spiral around, they would have immediately jumped on the Obama bandwagon. They could have been the hero's. With Bill Clinton and Biden's teamwork any Swifboating mud the Republican's care to throw could have been dealt with easily.


If this election were to take a turn for the worst, and McCain wins, Hillary Clinton will go down in history as the Democrat who put McCain in. She will never recover from this. Her career in politics will be over and her legacy forever written in history.


The delegates who are still crying out for Hillary will also be written in history as contributors to the Republican's fondest wish. If any ever choose to run for public office it will follow them as part of their resume'. They will be dubbed as the puppets who played into the hands of the Karl Rove's of that party, and who handed our country back over to the very cut-throats who have caused this firestorm for the last eight years.


Clinton's - it's not too late yet.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 08/25/2008

I don't know when I have ever heard that a losing candidate is responsible for making the winning candidate into a winner. If BO can't win, he can't win and we made a mistake nominating him. This is about him now. Hillary is no more than a one strong Dem senator out of 50. If BO and his boy Biden can't win, in this environment, with this economy and these wars, it is on them and NO ONE ELSE.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:21 PM on 08/25/2008

Thank You!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:54 AM on 08/26/2008
- apcalc I'm a Fan of apcalc 2 fans permalink

Hillary will do her best to secure her supporters for Obama, and the Obama teamd voters should be greatful to her.

Let me say , however, that Obama is the one who has to convince Hillary supporters. It's his job to do, he is the candidate. It isn't about her anymore, it's about him.

I can tell you he is not well liked. As a candidate he is weak, or he wouldn't be in this mess. And he cannot gain experience that he sorely lacks in the next few months. It is his weakness to blame if he loses, not what Hillary can do for him.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:24 PM on 08/25/2008

I am sick and tired of being labeled as a "bitter Hillary supporter." It is so simplistic and, frankly, insulting. We are upset for two main reasons: 1) we honestly feel that she is far more experienced and expert at solving the exceedingly difficult problems that Bush has created (do any of the fervent Obama supporters actually have any EVIDENCE that he is better equipped to right the economy and environment and tackle foreign policy than a Clinton administration would?) and 2) considering the above, we will not easily forget or forgive that two of the finest Democrats and public servants of the past 50 years were figuratively thrown under a bus and treated like (crap) by the press (including, enthusiastically, the Huffington Post) ALL with the behind the scenes consent and urging of the Obama campaign (Barack always pretended to be "above the fray" while Clyburn, Axelrod, Burton et al. dished every piece of dirt they could....to willing scribes like Sarvis, not to mention emotionally troubled and obsessed harridans like Maureen Dowd and Anne Kornblut). "Hillary is a bitch"; "The Clintons are racist" (does anybody really BELIEVE that for a second? Try visiting Hope, Arkansas if you do); "Bill is unhinged"; "Hillary mentioned RFK because she secretly hopes Obama will be assassinated before the convention," and on and on. And you wonder WHY people who have admired and respected the Clintons (and living in Washington, have seen first hand how they governed) are angry and upset?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 06:09 PM on 08/25/2008

Let me get this straight. You are "upset" so you are going to vote for a man who, among other things, wants to appoint Judges who will overturn Rowe v. Wade, opposes universal health care, wants permanent tax cuts for the rich, and is likely to get us into another unjustified war. Sorry, but it just does not seem rational.
I am a resident of NY and voted for Hillary in her two senatorial races. I voted for Obama in the NY primary because of Hillary's tactics in the primaries. Had Hillary won the nomination, I would have voted for her, despite her tactics. The comparison that voters face now is Obama v. McCain, not Obama v. Clinton.
Do you consider your position to be rational?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:48 PM on 08/25/2008
- XME I'm a Fan of XME 26 fans permalink
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While some feel Clinton was more "deserving", Obama won because more Americans felt he was the better candidate. I'm a 38 year-old white woman. While I'd love to see a woman president, I've supported Obama from the beginning because I feel he's the better candidate. My decision was based not just on experience or length of time in the public eye, but on character, judgement, issues, experience, gut instinct and more.

What makes America so great is that this is how we nominate presidents, not JUST by seniority. If that were the case, we wouldn't need elections or voters at all...and John McCain would automatically be our next president!

I agree that the MEDIA didn't always treat Hillary well, but to blame Obama for her not winning, or the way she or Bill were treated is midguided and is punishing America, not Obama. We don't deserve a President McCain just because Hillary's supporters ARE bitter and can't get past some things that happened during the primary. This isn't about Hillary, or Bill or even Barack. This is about us and the issues these candidates support. Politics is dirty. No one knows this better than the Clintons. She's thrown her support behind Obama because she cares more about what McCain would do to American than what occurred during a primary. Her supporters are doing her a diservice and will only muddy the memory of her candidacy and support the idea that she's "polarizing" and "divisive".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:35 PM on 08/25/2008

Apalc- are you insane? Weak? He's an almost unknown who just beat the Clinton machine in a primary they did everything they could to win. Now he's up against the biased, GOP-connected media, the GOP swiftboat machine, the vociferous hate-filled Puma people, and he's ahead in the polls and electoral votes.

Apalc - When have you ever faced what he's facing and done better?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:25 PM on 08/25/2008
- Nancyok I'm a Fan of Nancyok 12 fans permalink

(continued) And fellow Obama fans, do think about how you would have felt and accord them respect...they deserve it.

Despite my final choice on Super Tuesday to swing to Obama, and every moment since that has assured me that I made the right choice for me, I would jumped over in two seconds to work for Hill, had she beaten him. The ideals and issues and integrity they stand for are hardly a fragment apart. To be manipulated by the McCain people into voting against everything she believes in would be horrifying. You'll feel even worse on Nov. 5 and in the 4 years after, knowing you delivered the White House into the hands of Hillary's true enemies.

I'm sorry for things people have said and I know that she and Bill will be restored to the place of honor they deserve. The MSM did most of the damage, not the Obama campaign anyway. But if Bill especially, doesn't find peace with this in a hurry...he is coming off like a petulant child the last time I heard him...and this from a person who would have taken a bullet for him 8 years ago. I had his back vocally at every moment since until recently.

I don't want to wake up on Nov. 5 and feel that way again and I know you don't want to either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 08/25/2008
- Nancyok I'm a Fan of Nancyok 12 fans permalink

TO the wonderful supporters of Hillary, please read.....I was a long time Hillary supporter, and pledged to work on her campaign a little up until Feb....but as I read and listened and learned and wrestled with my decision, I found myself inspired by Obama the way I was by Bill 12 years before but I just didn't feel that same depth for Hillary. Don't get me wrong....I still love Hillary and will be the first person in line in 2014 to get ready for 2016. I won't restate the obvious reasons why an obama/clinton ticket couldn't have worked or wouldn't have been the best choice politically or in execution. And Hillary asked not to be vetted. But I love the Clintons and I feel for the hard line supporters that are in mourning...think about how we all felt on Nov. 3, 2004....think back...both Obama and Hillary supporters. We were devasted, crushed...in mourning for our country and the world. I had one friend that called me to actually gloat about it...I hung up...and didn't speak to her for 2 years. I felt that strongly about the evil that Bush represented...and to her, it was all a casual joke.
So to fellow Hillary fans, please know that many of us wrestled hard with our decision, and have the utmost respect for her, for you, and for everything Bill and Hillary have done for this country. and will continue to do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:06 PM on 08/25/2008

I think I know how Hillary die-hards feel. As an anyone-but-Hillary Democrat, I had voiced my willingness to vote for McCain over Hillary had she won the primary. (Some women over 50 think Hillary put up with too much from her dubious spouse and began to wonder what she was really made of, besides raw personal ambition.) I'd like to think I would have seen the light by now had she been as well organized as Obama and taken the nomination. So much harm has been done to this country by Republicans that to consider voting for them to assuage bitterness over Hillary's loss is not just immature, but immoral.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:54 PM on 08/25/2008
- afed27 I'm a Fan of afed27 3 fans permalink

I don't know about Hillary ,but I respect myself much too much to partake in something that I can not condone, the support of Obama. Those whom it does not bother can do as they please but I will never support that man to be the leader of our country. If, after his 4 years, I am found to be wrong, I will apologize, which, like Bush, is more than he has the character to do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:48 PM on 08/25/2008
- Wingit I'm a Fan of Wingit 8 fans permalink

You do not state a reason. Why are you willing to see the downfall of the American way of life, the American middle class destroyed and civil rights revoked? How is that "respecting yourself"?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:13 PM on 08/25/2008
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Any of these disgruntled Clinton supporters who are going to vote for McCain because "she was dissed", or because they feel women have been marginalized by Obama's campaign better wake up and smell the "Male Chauvinist Pig" that is John McCain. To say nothing about his Mid-evil policies taking us to neoconland in the 18th century, he is the pro-lifer and war mongering Bush/Cheney supporter who voted for Bush's policies 95 percent of the time. Those policies have "dissed" women more than Obama ever could. Also, don't forget, McCain called is own wife a c*nt in front of reporters years ago, and also, as recently as weeks ago told a right wing bikers audience Cindy would make a good contestant for their "Miss Buffalo Chips" contest, bananas and wet t-shirts included! Vote for McCain because he "dissed" Hillary? Cut off your stupid nose to spite your face.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:55 PM on 08/25/2008

Hey nannagal, I am so with you! I AM a disgruntled Clinton supporter but there is no way on god's green earth that I would ever vote for John McCain...for all the reasons you stated. There was a time I had some respect for John McCain but no more! His association with George Bush destroyed any credibility he ever had. I used to see him as fearless and now just see him as a go along no matter how wrong Republican. This is one Clinton supporter who cares too much about our country to vote for any one other than Obama this November. Any Democrat who really does want to see a change in the direction this country is going MUST vote for Obama. I don't think our country can withstand another four years of Republican rule, especially a Republican who is just Bush in disguise.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:51 PM on 08/25/2008

I have tried to put myself in the position of the "disgruntled Hillary supporter" and think of where I would honestly be if Obama had not beaten Hillary Clinton. I would be mad at the campaign strategy that was beset (i feel) with lies and character assassination. I would be mad because the first serious AA candidate had lost his (first) opportunity. I would even be mad because a Black Man had gotten bested by a White Woman (please do not paint this statement with the ugly brush of prejudice, but look at it as wounded pride).

However, when it came time to pick the champion I was going to get behind, there is no way under God's blue sky that I would, even for a moment, even consider shifting my support, or my vote, to the enemy camp. And believe you me, that John McCain is truly the enemy. I truly believe that Hillary Clinton would work just as hard for the common man - ME - as Barack Obama would. I do not think that the backbone of America - the middle class - would be served any less by Senator Clinton than by Senator Obama.

Please - do not let "disgruntled" become a synonym for "insane."

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:51 AM on 08/26/2008
- Nancyok I'm a Fan of Nancyok 12 fans permalink

First of all, the 3am message was certainly not intended to be a dig. That's crazy. First of all, my message came at 3:17, but it came well after announcements in my email from CNN.com and HuffPo. The email was probably supposed to be later Sat. morning as promised, but CNN went official at 1:30am with a leaked confirmation and it hit the AP wire before 2am and Huffpo sent an email around 2:30am. It's amazing that it stayed secret for a day and a half, but once out, Obama knew he needed to get his email/text out asap. Seriously, there is no way that the message coming somewhere in the vicinity of 3am was anything more than a response to the fact that the beans got spilled just before then.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:36 PM on 08/25/2008
- chelliza I'm a Fan of chelliza 6 fans permalink

If Clinton supporters allow this country to continue over the cliff, they deserve what they get. They better not be complaining when it happens.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:12 PM on 08/25/2008
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All well and good, but I, for one, don't want to be dragged over the damn cliff with them!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 04:57 PM on 08/25/2008
- DCX2 I'm a Fan of DCX2 5 fans permalink

To all those people who want to support McCain instead of Obama - imagine what it would be like if McCain wanted to fight another war (likely; see Russia/Georgia, see Iran, see Syria, see Afghanistan surge)...We would need a draft. Do you really want to be the next Cindy Sheehan?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:13 PM on 08/25/2008

it is Barack Obama who must have the brains, persistence and mettle to earn this election.

Hillary Clinton has done her job of running valiantly, spending millions on that race and stepping forward with as much grace as possible to back Obama.

She is not his mother. She was his very credible opponent -- and odd that a man who fell out of the primaries now holds the nominee post she should have had based on voter alliance.

Stop looking to Hillary Clinton to fix things for Obama who, by now -- based on the past eight dismal years -- should be way ahead of John McCain on his own merits.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:04 PM on 08/25/2008

I'm a Hillary Clinton supporter who left the Democratic Party this past May due to the Florida Delegate Fiasco. I want a reason to go back to the Party, but I feel the Party left me. Although I'm still on the fence and leaning more towards voting for McCain, I'll be watching her speech and see how I feel after.

I'll admit I was very dissapointed when I found out that she was not even considered for the VP slot. Obama did an excellent job of pouring salt in the wounds of many of us, by releasing the text at 3:00 AM. Those are some of the reasons that keep me from jumping on the Obama bandwagon along with Obama hiring Patti Doyle to chose the VP's cabinet, weeks after Hillary suspended her campaign.

Yes, Obama gave her a primetime slot, but personally, I could give three hoots about a catharsis. Give the tissue to someone else.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:01 PM on 08/25/2008
- chelliza I'm a Fan of chelliza 6 fans permalink

I'm not sure how voting for McCain is anything but a slap in the face to Hillary. He is against everything she stands for. Were you voting for the issues? or just the candidate? If you were voting for the issues, then how does McCain match your views on these issues? If it was just the candidate, then how does continuing this country on the road to disaster help her?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 02:39 PM on 08/25/2008

The problem for many is the way the Hillary supporters have been insulted and ridiculed. Therefore, it is less about "what Hillary must do" but what Obama and his supporters should do. First, they should imagine they had lost by a small number of votes, after feeling insulted and attacked. Of course issues dictate that they should vote for Clinton not McCain, but they might not be enthusiastic about it. They would not want be called ignorant petulant children when they hesitate. If Obama had lost, his supporters might have misgivings about the vote to authorize force. With Clinton, many voters have concerns about Obama's experience, knowledge, and the intensity of his devotion to the concerns of the working class. Those hesitations can be overcome by Obama. {Please don't post things attacking me for this post [unless you are a McCain plant, of course, then that's your job]. Just reflect on this.
Giving the Clintons a forum at the Convention helps to show that Obama wants to be a uniter, not a smug winner. An extraordinary woman and her supporters have earned this---it is an act of unity, not division, even as the talking heads try to paint it as a sign of conflict so they can have something to be intense about to puff up their ratings. [I suggest watching the proceedings streamed at the DNC site or on c-span, to hear the speeches uninterrupted by voice over by the TV spinners and pontificators.]

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:19 PM on 08/25/2008
- BigBen I'm a Fan of BigBen 4 fans permalink

Sorry but getting Hillary supporters is Obama's job. He is the new leader of the party. His job is to unite; to bring the different sides together like he said in his campaigns against Hillary. Now is his time and his responsibi­lity.Hilla­ry is no longer the power on the party.If he cannot unite his party he will be denied the job of uniting the country.So lets forget Hillary and go on to lead like he is supposed to do.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:29 PM on 08/25/2008
- Grit I'm a Fan of Grit 6 fans permalink

I wonder how many Clinton supporters ,like you, are wiling to help give us at least four more years of Bush, because your feelings are hurt. One of the things I like about Hillary Clinton is she is a realist, and obviously cares more about the country than a lot of her supporters do. She was running for president to try to save the country. That was the number one reason, being the first woman president was somewhere down the list. Now she is helping Obama , again, to try to save the country. If her supporters really believed in her, they would be supporting what she believes in . Voting for McCain is actually an insult to her.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 03:58 PM on 08/25/2008

Obama,

Dug himself into this situation! He now needs to dig himself out! He could have unified the party by giving Hillary the respect and at lease considering her. He is doing everything backwards. A week after Hillary suspends her campaign, what does Obama do? He hires Patti Doyle to interview and pick-out the Vice Presidential Nominee's Staff.

Who is Patti Doyle, that's Clinton's former Campaign manager that was fired after Super Tuesday. This looks like it was clearly to let Hillary and her supporters know that he was not planning on picking her.

Hillary is campaigning all over the country for him, and what does he do to mock her and her supporters, he announces his VP pick at 3:00 AM. If you don't think that was to poke the finger in the eyes of Hillary and her supporters, then you must be living in the wrong planet.

He is like the little kid in the playground that gets insulted and holds a grudge for the rest of his life even after the person has tried to make peace on the issue.

I keep wanting to finding a reason to move on and vote for Obama, but Obama and his supporters are making it very difficult.

As for McCain, I agree on some issues and is probably the only Republican Candidate that I wold have voted for anyway, since I've appreciated McCain's values since 2000 when he ran against the Chimp we have in the Oval Office now.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 05:01 PM on 08/25/2008
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