Let's Talk About Race: With Baratunde and Cenk (Part 1)

After our appearance on MSBNC Friday talking about the dumbass cartoon (that's how I officially refer to it BTW), Cenk and I decided to continue the conversation. Six and a half minutes isn't enough to address the points we both were trying to make. This is an experiment in dialogue with YouTube as the primary medium.

I've responded to the MSNBC video with my own expanded comments on the point I think Cenk was trying to make, namely that calling the cartoon "racist" (and perhaps not just the cartoon but other such actions and incidents) can make white people very defensive and prevent the kind of conversation we need to be having in this country. I don't completely disagree, but my priorities are different. Check out my video response and some supporting links below. Cenk should have his response up early in the week.

Here's what I put up as "homework" in the "more info" section of the YouTube video page.

• The MSNBC segment that launched this discussion


• Here's Cenk's Huffington Post article that expands on the point he was making on MSNBC


• Here's Baratunde's Jack & Jill Politics post on his main point


• More on Dr. Phillip Atiba Goff's psychological work on dehumanization and its connection to police brutality


• Interesting article by Rinku Sen on the difference between individual intentions and structural racism

In the video above, you'll see a YouTube link to the original 1600 Pennsylvania Ave segment. Once Cenk posts his response, my video will link to his, and his will link back to mine. Over time, you'll get a sort of threaded video commentary between us. We'll be posting these videos to TheYoungTurks.com, Huffington Post and Jack & Jill Politics for starters.

It's a conversation we need to have and an innovative way to have it! Happy sunday.

Comments

[Tanyars5]

Pippen I read where you feel truth is only for children and god. I guess truth doesn't matter to you. The only thing that is "truth" to you is "your" reality. I find that sad.

As Nommo stated before- the culture is racist.
I do believe he is correct.

Black people need to keep on keepin on ..........we will survive ....dialogue is not what we need with these people they don't listen.

[EgyptianMysterySchool]

B.Thurston you couldn't be more right. Often targeted groups of people were dehumanized by way of imagery in order to increase dislike and violence toward them. I personally think the Post is far too intelligent to make a "mistake" like this. When that chimp went crazy, they proably saw it as a perfect opportunity to blur the lines and say something racist about Obama and get away w/ it.

This type of dehumnizing has lead to some of the worst atrocities committed by human beings...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/11/25/sbm.perpetrators/

The Nazi's depicted the Jews as rats
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1180/altfinal3.htm?200924#animal

The RPF turned the Tutsi into Inyenzi (cockroaches)
http://www.unesco.org/courier/1999_12/uk/dossier/txt08.htm

The Japanese were turned into Monkeys and rats
http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/2315

and blacks have been consistently depicted as monkeys
http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery/african-american-art.htm

Symbolization and dehumanization are considered the 2nd and 3rd steps (of 8) to genocide
http://www.genocidewatch.org/eightstages.htm

[Tanyars5]

post this on Cenks page please.....for some reason white people feel they know all about black people.....please help them educate themselves.........

GREAT INFO THANK YOU

[EgyptianMysterySchool]

I tried, I don't think it posted - glad you like it.

[EgyptianMysterySchool]

For anone who doubts whether or not a sophisticated outfit like the New York post is innocent in their portrayal of President Obama as a monkey I offer the following evidence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNFokenPInk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU2sQ5ukOko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hInLo10I72w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCUb1S-W_Cw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poCfutKNeig&feature=related

Racists have been portraying Obama as a monkey for as long as they've known about him. The NYPost is too knowledgeable about images and about the world for an "opps, we're sorry if you're offended" type of answer.

[Pippen]

Look back through this thread and tell me the postings are not passionately filled with finger pointing. Finger pointing will NEVER be the winning side of a mature discussion about ANYTHING.

I would say that I believe ALOT of what is "perceived" as racism is just plain old "I dont like you" translated into business.

Everyone is subject to "I don't like you" but because minorities are hyper sensitive to it they tend to go there first. Jews who get a bad meal from a Bavarian deli may not be experiencing antisemitism, it may be the clerk flat didn't like them. If more people gave some consideration to the possibility that the person or group that is perpetrating the perceived offense might not have a bigoted mindset but more "I don't like you" mindset there would be less furor over the glut of calls of "racism".

There grevances that are racist that don't require "discussion" they require legal adjudication.

Everyone is prejudice to some degree about something or an ethnicity but just because they may feel that way doesn't mean they are being racist. They may go through their lives and never prevent another group from having equal rights or being passed over for promotion etc.. They more than likely will simply avoid them to stay in their confort zone.

We need a solid public discourse on culture relations in this country instead of the finger pointing we all get from the media and the holier than thou comedians.

[Nommo]

The culture is racist. No one here is finger pointing or talking about 'perceived' racism. "Minorities are hyper sensitive". What sort of foolishness is that but racist foolishness. It indicates, minimally, that you are incapable of any degree of empathy, never mind actual comprehension. Legal adjudication was Brown v. Board yet schools remain as segregated as ever and those schools in certain communities continue to be victimized by underfunding.

In point of fact, segregation in this nation is in fact, institutionalized. There are countless examples of Black being denied employment, education, membership in unions, for no other reason than the fact that they are Black.

[Tanyars5]

Pippen- not sure what you are talking about-finger pointing????? No one is blaming anyone. If you don't say racist things to black people they won't call you a racist.

Nommo- I think your comments mirror my own thoughts.
Some white people want us to reframe a discussion on race so they can feel better. How condescending is that? We will talk to you but only on white people terms.....­.typical..­........no­thing changes

[papapj]

"We" don't need 'a solid public discourse' to teach anybody their own glaring deficiencies - enough of the kumbaya sessions, they always point to the same thing. That would be a persistent, almost psychotic denial of European Americans regarding the preponderant social advantages afforded them by the color of their skin - White privilege.

None of the pseudo-intellectual sophistry offered by so-called liberal apologists comes even close to acknowledging this and is ultimately condescending in it's conclusions.

We'll never get anywhere until this much at least is acknowledged and incorporated into the American cultural dialogue.....

[Pippen]

I don't see anglo Europeans saying or writing anything that denies they have more advantages in America than minorities. This is still a democracy, hence elections matter.

Who needs to apologize ? The descendents of slave owners ? Lets look them up and ask them to please stand before America on a national stage and announce for the sake of their racist great grandpa please take responsibility for his actions . . . ?

I've never read anything where a public figure, elected official or otherwise said whites don't have more priviledges than minorities.

Maybe you could point one out.

[Aquarius]

Wow, you're in denial. Yes, people are entitled to dislike someone without being accused of being racist. Absolutely true! However when something is said or done that is deliberately racist, such as the cartoon of the monkey, that is simply not a simple case of "I don't like you". History has shown that people of color have been compared to monkeys. It was meant to be hurtful. It's not okay. Using the excuse that we all harbor some form of prejudice is not a defense. It's just a lame excuse. When you prejudge someone you are painting a whole group of people with the same broad brush. It's wrong. I am not a person of color but I have seen and heard more ignorance from people since Obama was elected than I care to. Things have changed in this country but god knows we still have a long way to go.

[PlaceboStudman]

I'll say what I have been saying around here for the last few days since this whole issue started. The issue isn't *just* about race. The issue is one of Human Nature, Evolution and Survival of The Fittest. Humans simply are not able to wrap their minds around the idea that one race, one gender, one sexual orientation or one disability is NOT better than another. We are all guilty of categorizing and prioritizing what influences our lives the most. It is in our DNA to say that, say, cancer is more important than MS or Parkinson's, therefore cancer research gets more funding in the race for the cures for all diseases.

The same goes for skin color. For whatever reason, we as humans have decided its okay to put caucasians on the top of the food chain and Native Americans on the bottom of the food chain in terms of race discussions. We need to realize and accept the fact that all humans are just as equal, just as valid, and have just as much right to be heard and listened to than any other human being.

Sure, it would be nice if the discussion wasn't needed. But, until we can stop prioritizing one difference over another, then we will never be able to appreciate the wonderful similarities betweeen us

[SuzeNYC]

Excellent statement Baratunde. Hey White people, it's OK. We are all racist-ish. We can't help it. We've been indoctrinated since day one. Nobody is bad because of this. OK? That out of the way, I want to know how to help White people start talking about White privilege instead of worrying about stepping on toes around the word 'racist.' I'm White and I'll to start. OK, other White people. Think about all the ways you have had it good just because you are fair skinned. Here's an example. I have never been followed around in a store while I am browsing because a security guard suspects me of shoplifting. Here's another, my public school had enough books and chairs for each student. Can you think of any?

[BBackSoon]

As a white male, I was dumbfounded by stories from a woman I used to work with. She is a white woman married to a black man. I say this for information only. Both are well educated, professional people. That being said they had bought some ear piece for a cell phone a few years back, it fell apart in 3 days. He tried to take the item back to the store and was rudely told that even though he had the original packaging and his receipt they would not take it back because he probably stole it. He was dressed in a suit at the time.

His wife the next day took the same item in with the same receipt and packaging, dressed in blue jeans and t-shirt and was told no problem, they didn’t even look at the receipt. They just took the old unit and gave her a new one off the shelf.

I have never had this happen to me, even when I was in my Rock-star phase, with long hair, full beard, black t-shirt and torn jeans. I did used to make mothers hold their kids a little tighter and clutch their purses if it means anything. And one time down in Mexico the Federalas kept an eye on me in the airport.

[listentomalcolmx]

Mr. Thurston,

Your point is well taken, i think we should not stop confronting racism simply because it may offend those who are not racist. If people who are not truly racist get offended by the conversation on race then are they really not racist or is there some guilt somewhere? Think back to slavery where the majority of those who did not believe in slavery, did not have the courage to stop it. Even our well esteem president Abraham Lincoln did not try to stop slavery until he realized without the help of some 200,000 black union troops that they deserved better. In fact during a speech soon after the war, Mr. Lincoln suggested giving black veterens the right to vote and that mere speech cost him his life. Mr. John Wilkes Booth was in the audience and stated " that's it blacks are gonna be citizens, no way" and we all know what happened then.

[listeningpost]

(part two)
Institutional racism and behaviors that are based in subconscious reactions, as opposed to overt deliberate beliefs, are shadowy by their natures. For example, banks do not have written policies based on racial biases and can cite all day long examples of that as fact, but that doesn't mean "institutional racism" isn't in effect. This is equally true of all individual's psyches, regardless of skin color. Everyone has unnamed biases and fears that impact our behavior. Really, these are facts of life that are never going to be solved, but they can be worked on and improved. To the extent that some biases are endemic in society and adversely impact, even contradict our societie's basic tenets, they need to be illuminated, minimized, and hopefully repaired. Beating people over the head isn't going to help. A scalpel is more useful than an ax in these cases.

[listeningpost]

I agree, first that both of you are basically in agreement on the larger issue, and secondly I agree with Cenk that using the label, racist, stops or diverts the conversation.
Here's why:
Calling individual's racist has come to be used as a epithet -'such a word or phrase as a term of abuse'- or cudgel in discussion and debate. Racism is, after all, a crime against humanity, it puts whoever is on the receiving end of the name into the same camp as Adolph Hitler and the Nazi regime. This isn't an exaggeration, it doesn't take much extension to get to that comparison; examples Baratunde cites include police brutality and other's that can be directly related Nazi's or other virulently racist episodes in history. Because the cartoon is violent (and such a stretch as satire), it does almost beg for the accusation of racism which in effect makes it race baiting. I think Cenk's point is that in the interest of moving the discussion/action forward is not to rise to the bait, but instead to push the discussion in the constructive directions that Baratunde brings up. The quibbling about whether or not to use the word racism, in this case, side tracked the conversation that could have been spent getting deeper into the bigger issues.

[Tanyars5]

i guess we black people are makin the white peoples feel uncomfortable with our race talkin.......we better reframe our talk to make them feel better.......
Is this "convsersation" about race for real.??????...give me a break
is this 2009 or 1869..........help me please!!!!!!!!!

[listeningpost]

Who's race baiting now?
I'm talking about the use of a word.
Tanyarse5, what do you think the best framework is?

[gaebolgaes]

in 1715...william poindexter buys a slave woman off a slave ship in virginia. he takes her home installs her in the slave quarters on his plantation and he rapes her on a regular basis. she becomes pregnant with his mixed race daughter. 12 years later on a drunken binge he sees a little mulatto girl sitting in front of the slave shack. he rapes his daughter. 12 years later he spots her child his grandaughter and he rapes her too.mr. poidexter dies in 1785 shortly after impregnating his greatgrandaughter. he leaves all of his estate to his white children ...grandchildren and great-gran­dchildren. he leaves nothing to his mulatto children.in 1998 the black decendants stumble across the slave bill of sales and birth records in a bible discovered in a used book store.they cannot even sue for reparations event hought mr. poindexters white decendants ..HAVING WISELY INVESTED MR. POINDEXTERS MONEY ...own the marlboro tobacco company and billions in stocks and bonds.WHAT KIND OF CONVERSATIONS ABOUT RACE ARE WE SUPPOSED TO BE HAVING IN 2009.?

[Tanyars5]

unbelievable story gaebolgaes

My paternal grandfather sold his land to an oil company in Mississippi in the 1950's/1960's .............the agreement in this sale was that his descendants would recieve some sort of "mineral rights/royalties" for generation­s.......as a descendant of this land deal I recieve $50 a year if that much......­..........­..
I was 16 years old when my grandfather died......he was illiterate and lived in an old run down house in ohio........do you think the "land deal" he signed in Mississippi was on the up in up? We have actual public records and nothing can be done to reverse this "land deal."

How much have oil company's made throughout the years?????.....and I get pennies on the dollar.....talk about familty legacy's

[Nommo]

one of the biggest land grabs of recent history was from all those Black farmers who could not get loans that white farmers took for granted, who lost their land eventually to financial necessity. And so it goes, T5.

[noudidnt]

There are A LOT of stories like yours.

[papapj]

Some egregious incidents are still in living memory, and are fully deserving of reperations

The white community of Tulsa set out to kill and injure as many black people as possible,” said an attorney for the victims, "In 82 years, who has been brought to justice?”

http://www.mc.cc.md.us/Departments/hpolscrv/VdeLaOliva.html

[Tanyars5]

reparations makes white people squirm please don't use that term...........that is a very uncomfortable word for them to handle....please reframe the word......maybe that is the answer

[Pippen]

First I'd have to see some form of evidence to suggest these documents you refer too are confirmed as authentic. Second, I'm kinda curious how Poindexter is connected to Marlboro since it's a British corporation and didn't even see any significant profit until well after World War II. If Poindexter was just a private citizen who invested wisely then the issue isn't about Marlboro but about Wills and Estate law.

If the documents are formally notarized as authentic, then they have a legitimate legal case for a rational portion of the estate from that era. Any lawyer who turns this case down would tell me there is some cracks in the case or the legitimacy of the story.

[Nommo]

You have some expertise in documents? Are you offering your services here?

[ihavenobias]

I think you both made some great points, and ultimately you're both on the same page when it comes to the BIGGER picture, even if you disagree to an extent on this particular cartoon.

PS---Cenk's position wasn't about "political correctness", it was about framing the debate carefully to avoid unnecessary and counter-productive reactions from the very people who need to discuss these things the most. Like President Obama has said, sometimes you need a scalpel, not an axe.

[noudidnt]

You were right and Cenk was more concerned about having a "politically correct" discussion about race. See, white people want to LIMIT or FRAME the "race" discussion into one that talks about crime and out-of-wedlock births. No, white people cannot handle an honest and intelligent "race" discussion because it would require on their part, education about the whole nut of American History.

One place we can start is the fact that most whites voted for the white guy in this last election. Blacks have supported white politicians from the time we were able to vote. Perhaps we need to stop supporting those who won't extend the same level of support.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

[Nommo]

Wanting to always frame the conversation is a fundamental of the racist culture in and of itself. I don't know that there is any conversation that is to be had at all. I don't know how many requests for understanding, empathy, or a sense of common ideals Black people can continue seeking. The answer has always been the same, or variations on a theme.

Worse, not only will there be no dialogue but there will be an attempt to pin all of the current set of troubles on Blacks. To those intellectual giants, I must ask you, if it were in Black people's power to bring all this trouble, why would we have waited so long?

[Tanyars5]

Nommo- I agree totally........

[noudidnt]

I agree..."race" discussions are unnecessary. What is necessary is that people are treated EQUALLY under the law. Eric Holder can address this. Instead of calling people "cowards" he should be investigating the disparities in sentencing of white and non-white convicts. He should investigate the racist drug bill passed by Bill Clinton in the 90's. He should investigate police and prosecutorial corruption. Who I choose to socialize with is none of Holder's business.

[Tanyars5]

Nommo- I come home from work and see you set it off on this thread. I totally agree with you.....