Let's Talk About Race: With Baratunde and Cenk (Part 3)

And we're back. Sorry for the delay. This is my response to Cenk's last video in which he explained that calling something "racist" is a bad strategy for having an actual conversation. We should say it's "questionable" and ask "can you see how this might be racist?" instead. He also agrees with me that people of color have carried most of the burden of racial dialogue and fights for justice, but says that's the way it is, and that the target audience for this dialogue needs to be the majority of white people who don't think they're racist. I disagree. Check it out.

You can follow responses to this video on Jack and Jill Politics and on YouTube.

Comments

[jozinha]

Gorgeous dude. Really nice. But he's way too much in his head. Which is my essential take on the entire present-day topic of racism. It has gone into a particular phase of its political life that is very abstract. This guy even says so, in his own way.

The one part of his talk that I question is his assertion that there is some belief out there that America was or is such a great meritocracy. Huh? Who believes that? I can't think of a person in my life except for my long-gone grandfather who came from the hell-holes of eastern Europe at the end of the 19th century who has or had that impression of the U.S.

My grandfather also had a favorite expression (in his accent): "It's a dogeedog woild!" That's the message I most remember from him. Capitalism is the greatest pyramid/ponzi scheme that ever lived. That it used slave labor in some countries at certain periods of time is just symbolic of the fact that the system itself is based on slavery period -- that we are all slaves. Slaves to trends, wages, interest rates, bad journalism.

Being a minority will always suck. Being a human being who makes discriminations will always happen. That fairness can be legislated is like believing morality can be legislated. And so the uses and the frank discussion of the concept of racism to me are plainly limited.

[Robin Pugh-Perry]

The idea of white privilege has yet to be included in the larger conversation on race. Since whites obviously are not looking to relinquish their privileged status, why open that Pandora’s Box by discussing anything?
Meanwhile, blacks have lulled themselves into believing that all is well. There are no visible manifestations of Jim Crow and many have material possessions far exceeding those of their parents. In one generation blacks in America have gone from “we” shall overcome, to “I've” got mine, “you” get yours. Economic gains and technological advances appear to have leveled the playing field and the election of our first black president, Barack Obama, is surely irrefutable proof that we have arrived. Consequently, whites maintain privilege because of who they are. Blacks believe they are privileged because of what they have and there is no true desire for a conversation on race by either.
The president’s overwhelming acceptance by whites has resulted in his apparent ascendance of blackness. When whites look at President Barack Obama they don’t see a black man, they see an “any man.” At the same time they acknowledge that Barack Obama the man is black as a demonstration that they are not racist at all. A certain deceit lies beneath this cover of praise. Blacks can’t or won't see this less than obvious impact of “living while black” in America so they gain the privilege of living in a gap of illusion.
Conversation creates possibility and in that space, miracles happen!

[Nommo]

Welcome aboard, RPP. I might just add that the illusion is a perverse kind of survival tactic. It allows one to think something like; "this can't be real. They cannot be real. So I must not be real. But I be keeping it real." You must be a poet.

[Robin Pugh-Perry]

Thanks for the welcome Nommo. and I bet you even know it...I agree with you. But how do we change that? Its a hell of a spot to live inside of for any individual. But as a collective? No good.

I see that you post quite often but if you get a chance, check out The Conversation Project on Facebook. It's dedicated to increasing awareness of the impact of white privilege, all of our personal biases, and class on race relations in America.

http://apps.facebook.com/causes/232330/49604527?m=6987e7df

Robin

Conversation creates possibility and in that space, miracles happen!

[papapj]

Speaking of White privilege, it's hard to deny the comedic value;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY&feature=related

It can even be cathartic....:)

[Robin Pugh-Perry]

That was FUN-NY! Interestingly enough I just saw another video of Louis CK for the first time just last week talking about how amazing everything is and nobody's happy. I'll definitely be posting the one on white privilege as well. He's very insightful. Thanks much for the share. If get a chance, take a minute to check out The Conversation Project on Facebook. It's dedicated to increasing awareness of the impact of white privilege, all of our personal biases, and class on race relations in America.

http://apps.facebook.com/causes/232330/49604527?m=6987e7df

Robin

[Pippen]

Further to my previous post, I'd like to ad that the one Diversity Meeting that was held several years ago included over a hundred employees, 12 trained counselors and a three day catharsis of indepth discussions ended without a "moral to the story" or a common denominator.

Each attendee was segregated with their "color group" and penned their experience with racism and how it influenced their beliefs. Each experience was treated with respect and dignity and given an opportunity to share the full emotional extent of the impact and details regardless of color or background.

That was an eye opener for me. When whites felt that they could share their experiences and racist ideologies with thoughtful analogy and respect, they were very engaged with the entire group. The tensions didn't go away though because when the dust settled after three days the pain of those experiences were'nt erased, they were just shared. And the following Monday, those same members went back to work among different ethnicities who now have an added burden of knowing how difficult getting past those experiences and beliefs really are for everyone not just minorities.

I've not seen or attended a more wretching breakdown of prejudice and racism in a working environment since and I remember everyone's story. I think they attempted to open pandora's box and when she emerged, she scared the hell out of everyone.

[Pippen]

I work in a very white collar corporate environment dominated by anglo whites. (note: my department is completely governed by blacks from mid level management to CFO). Discussions of "race" ( I don't like the word myself I would rather we use "ethnicity") are channeled only in "diversity meetings". If race were to be brought up in a business meeting or passageway or at the coffee bar, whites would flee the area like abandoning the Titanic. But when race is discussed in "diversity meetings" the dialogue is almost entirely scripted.

The meetings begin with a presentation, either an actual event somewhere in the world or a historical event. Then a premise is suggested and audience engagement on the issue. Even though the presenters are open the concept of racial discussions it's not an indepth catharsis of the issue or the event and many on either side of the pigment equation do not share very much. They mostly just listen.

These meetings are mandatory. I can say they have aided some minor tensions but for the most part I don't believe members are getting out of it what was intended.

Hiring practices are strictly adhered too by Human Resources Executives who are held accountable by government liasons and reports. It's not even in the hands of mid level managers who design the job. Granted we're an international company with alot of foreign nationals in positions of authority but still there isn't alot of valued discussion taken place just some requirement listening.

[biggeranium]

I really appreciate the civil conversation that's going on in these videos, so keep it up. Have to say I agree with Barathunde on this one. I'm a white person who likes to think of herself as not racist. If a person of color points out that something I've said (or something that appeared in a cartoon) is racist, it's not going to scare me away from a conversation. I'm sure there are people who would run away from that conversation, but I don't think we need to cater to them. That sounds like more of the dumbing down of national dialogue that's gotten us in so many other messes.

To the extent that whites are ignorant of the history of institutional racism in America, we do have a responsibility to educate ourselves. It's not like it's a big secret. It's even in some pretty mainstream textbooks, though A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn gives a clearer picture, and includes the ever important discussion of class Barathunde brought up.

Keep up the good conversation.

[jade7243]

I have to say I continue to disagree vehemently with Cenk proposition that we need to ease into discussions about race -- more to the point, the "what is racist?" -- to protect the delicate sensibilities of the of the people who are, in fact, racist or who know or see something that is racist, but don't want to rock the boat. Cenk's view is just plain wrong and continues to allow an "out" by minimizing the existence of what is.

RobXdion says, "Class mitigates rac.ism to an extent." NOT TRUE. Class aggravates racism. The "upper classes" can avoid any contact whatsoever with minorities. Hence, we have restricted housing, "exclusive" schools and "private" clubs and more. At the other end of the spectrum, to differentiate between members of other more "diverse" classes -- the poor, for example -- race becomes the distinguishing factor. Poor whites holding themselves separate and apart from poor blacks, failing to see their economic or "class"-based similarities, instead their biases run rampant.

Even in this video dialogue Baratunde and Cenk are talking "around" racism and not dealing with it head on.

[robXdion]

My comment about class goes both ways. I understand the various permutations. I was just addressing Thurston's comments in the video as well the mentalities of numerous other blacks who feel things magically get better when they have money, a 40K car, and a 300K house. An upgrade in class or social level gives the illusion of racism being over for them. Or at best gives them the arrogance to separate themselves from poorer blacks and believe their status is solely due to exceptionalism despite being affected by the same racism. Craven assimilation matched with average uneducated ignorance created this chasm as well as the cognitive dissonance of black Republicans and numerous other blacks still clueless about history and basic social precepts.

[Tanyars5]

Jade- I agree with yor comments.

[HR44]

Personally, I think more than semantic concerns about what should or should not be labeled racist the larger concern is being able on both sides to define what is and what is not racist or rooted in racism.

Particularly as you get into broader topics like education, economics, and the justice system you have not only a historical education gap to bridge but more importantly an experience gap. In that very few people have a strong connection to history it's important to be able to look at an incident or a broad topic I think it's crucial to be able to put a rational definition behind the term racist.

In that, I agree with Baratunde Thurston that the issue of class has to be delved into in any conversation of race. Class so deeply impacts experience and perception that it's almost necessary to have different conversations based on different social and economic backgrounds.

All of which makes racial conversations all the more exhausting. I think that sense of fatigue and repeating itself has to be overcome because there truly is no "target audience". The demographics are too broad for a target audience and each likely needs to have the covnersation broached in the scope of their own experiences in order to get the message.

[Nommo]

Clearly everyone has to know the history that they have experienced and engendered. The reason that it is so heavily Black/white is simply that that's the dialogue that has gone on since and before the beginning. The Red was shunted off to the most hidden and obscure places and thoroughly decimated culturally. That story remains ignored to this day.

The best of all possibilities is that it does not have to be about recrimination. Someone must realize that it does not work, it keeps all of us in some kind of chain. The means are extant for all to do the work that they want to do in the privacy of home. If one does not know one's own story, then find it, learn it and know it. It makes the stories of others more digestible until the common grounds are exposed.

In essence, gentlemen, in the same fashion the Black people have been forced to find the history pre and post America, so must the rest of the nation. There is no logic in the current modes of behavior.
The time is here to act historically instead of being acted upon by history. Blind history.

[listeningpost]

Hey Nommo, we went back and forth in part 1 of this. I just want to say that after reading a lot of posts plus ensuing events- that watermelon guy, I have to agree with you more than I was willing to a few weeks ago. If people's fears, or biases, or just plain racism, makes them so dense that they can't see the harm in sending out a card like that, then one shouldn't worry overmuch about making them uncomfortable. Indeed they probably could benefit from a little shaking up.

This statement you make above does articulate a way forward. Good one.

[Nommo]

History is closing in on us, listeningpost. The choices available transcend such identities that we have been forced into or that we have chosen for whatever reason that we have chosen them. We stand on the brink of ecological and politcal disaster at least. The people who thought they were insulated from the forces of history are now standing in almost mute witness to the unfolding.

There has been a deficit in civility recently. For all the wrong reasons. Here's to more fruitful exchanges.

[valkyrie607]

Aw! I posted that before you gave me props! Thanks!

Here's the link to that song: "Everyone's a little bit racist"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwNSNLPIfw

And yeah, I don't think we should shy away from the term racist just to make sure whites are comfortable with the conversation. This white person became much more comfortable with the term "racist" as a direct result of my education (in the form of several workshops and a couple classes) about the history of race and culture in America. I think education is the key. There's a required class at my alma mater called "Race and Ethnicity" and it was very well done; I know from my experience and that of several of my friends that it really transformed the way we think about race.

Keep up the good work! (Cutie.)

[robXdion]

You're missing the key component. And that is while whites can acknowledge racism occurs, at the root of it all is the fact that they don't want to be responsible for such "bad thoughts" without creating parallel blame with blacks for exercising self-preservation in response to societal racism. e.g. They'll find fault with HBCU's, black magazines, and BET without realizing the history of WHY those venues had to exist. That's why "history" itself is retold and packaged in a safe manner that absolves their ancestors of any guilt while simultaneously exalting this is "the land of the free, Americans can do anything, et al" and other pleasantries that hide the truth. --- Class mitigates rac.ism to an extent. But not until others are comfortable with a black person being higher or equal to them. ---- And other minorities need to begin with admitting the truth that they benefit from "honorary quasi-whiteness" since they can always count on blacks to be seen as the lowest. All immigrants are taught that no matter how funny sounding their name is or their skin tone. Even Haitians resent being equated to black Americans when they come here and fight to hold onto their exotic uniqueness as is that makes them better than "ordinary" US blacks. . . .yes, REALLY. . . . A quick trip to the DC or NYC areas and talking with some of the immigrants there should make it clear.

[Haditup2here]

A lot of what you are talking about is assimilation. However, I would like to add one other thing. The other issue I see here is institutional racism (a more subtle form). We, blacks see this form of racism in many forms such as attaining a loan or even getting an appraisal. Because Whites do not experience those events, some can’t even empathize with the Black people they even call their friends. However, when a blatant instance of racism occurs, all of the sudden, some of them act as if they are in shock while some remain in denial. Then, after the event, some believe that they are not prejudice just because they don't participate in those acts when in fact they enable it through their denial and reproach of most Blacks as "Self-Victimizers". This then adds more fuel to institutional racism which gives rise to certain racist events provided that the perfect storm exists: the disenfranchisement of other whites by the upper class that needs a scapegoat in order to not feel forsaken by the privilege of their skin. However, it would be nice if some of the "so-called" Black Intellectuals would stop vying for fame and hone their efforts in making history and social studies more equitable in terms of recognizing the "FULL" extent of the contributions from Blacks to making this country what it is today. Otherwise, we will remain in the same perpetual cycle of "trying" to have a discussion on race.

[papapj]

The absence of cultural history beyond these shores, the deficit of positive role models or depictions representing them manifests itslef in the jealousy and inferiority complex displayed by US Africans toward Africans from the Diaspora.

Despite the fact that the majority of Diasporic Africans who now reside in the US have endured colonialism in their history in some form or other, the history of US Africans always begins with slavery - what a place to start. A place of total impotence that always has them begging for more from the very people who historically have oppressed them.

It's very hard for a native Black to feel anything but envy for the "exotic uniqueness" they seem to feel is displayed by Diasporic African immigrants - and even harder for them to be comfortable with a 'foreigner' who happens to be of the same skin tone doing better than they ever have.

The famous crabs in a barrel syndrome.

Until we can get it together and form a united front against the discrimination we feel and experience just by dint of skin-shade, then it's kind of hypocritical to believe that anybody else should do it.

...Whilst the mainstream just looks at us and laughs, saying..."...If you can't get along with each other, then why the heck would you expect us to...?"

[Nommo]

"Diasporic" African immigrants, if they have any concern over this whatsoever, would do well to remember that the colonial experience did not destroy their names or culture in general. Black Americans need to remember the Euro underpinnings of their Brothers and Sisters from the continent. They are susceptible to different seductions.

They need to know, all, what Black genius has brought here technologically and culturally. Hip hop was world wide before the internet. The genius hasn't stopped, and the Africans know what they took from it as well. Black Americans are descendants of those who survived two and one half centuries of chattel slavery and let us not forget those who were free men and women as well and all that they have contributed to what this nation is today.
Thus is our stake in this nation. We built what is America, let no one imagine differently.

Hell, if they did not learn their "exoticness" from us any goddamn way. Take away the work of Dr. Carver, Garrett A. Morgan, Dr. Drew, Benjamin Banneker, naming only four, and what is left here? Take away James Brown and Pharoah Sanders, and who the hell ever heard of Fela? Take away Josephine Baker...