Occupying Iraq Is Just Like Occupying... Alabama?
Earlier this week, I mentioned that the conservative blog RedState is trying to pressure the traditional media to treat critiques of John McCain's embrace of a 100-year occupation of Iraq as lies and distortion.
Today, RedState sent an email alert to readers to further push the point... making a, shall we say, novel argument (emphasis added):
Clearly McCain was talking about a peace time standing presence ... Someone should ask the Democrats if they think we're still at war with the confederacy, the Germans, and the Japanese given all the standing American armies in the South, Germany, and Japan.
As I said in my previous post, "Claiming a 100-year occupation in Iraq would be like Germany or Korea reveals an immense lack of foreign policy knowledge, judgment and vision. The situations and political dynamics have absolutely no similarity." (For more on that point, check out Agence France Presse, Coalition for a Realistic Foreign Policy, Talking Points Memo, Booman Tribune, The Newshoggers and Juan Cole.)
But hey, at least Germany and Japan are like Iraq in that they are other countries.
I can't believe I am wasting 15 seconds of my life to type this, but having military bases in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina does not constitute a permanent occupation. Does RedState really believe that 140 years after the Civil War, American troops have a "peace time standing presence" in the American south?
Conservatives are still flogging the notion that they hold an innate superiority on national security and foreign policy.
The disaster of Iraq has already stripped the veneer off of that fallacy.
Trying to claim that having military bases in Iraq for 100 years -- when our own intelligence community says "fear of Western domination" is what fuels the "jihadist movement" -- is just like having military bases in our own country, is probably not the best way to regain the public's trust on national security.
Originally posted at the Campaign for America's Future blog.
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What is it with Yankees and their fascination for things Southern? There is a deep rooted jealousy that keeps showing up. You think if this article had been written about Yankees that all these Southerners could give a hoot? No. We don't give you Yankees or Scalawags a second thought but y'all are just infatuated with us. Flattering. Your childish insults are quite telling. "Slavery/lynching/racism" Yep. But we also know that slavery lasted 89 years under Old Glory. We know the North practiced slavery before,during, and after the war. We know that West Va was brought into the Union in 1863 as a slave state. We know states like Abe's adopted Illinois had laws denying Blacks entry into the state and we know that is why the Underground Railroad went to Canada. We know about the Union desertion rate skyrocketing after the Emancipation. We know Emancipation left slavery intact in the North and Union Occupied areas of the South. We know Abe planned to colonize. We know Abe closed down over 300 Northern newspapers for what they wrote. We know Abe locked up over 13,000 Northerners for what they said. We know the Union League was the Black version of the KKK. We know that after the war, ex soldiers and their families were beaten, killed, raped,homes burned,livestock killed,farms destroyed by members of the Union League and occupying soldiers. We know the "new" government did nothing about it. We know that the winners of war, write the history.
Google "I-65 flag" and see what you get-you might not believe it.
I-65 is Interstate 65, by the way.
Iraq and the Confederacy? A more appropriate parallel would be if a Soviet Union had invaded and conquered an 1859 United States. The invader would have brought an alien political doctrine to govern a nation already split over interpretation of its own political legacy. We would have a common interest in fighting the invader while still fighting over our own internal squabbles. Overthrowing the invader would lead to a delayed civil war, because the imposition of the alien governing principle would forestall any resolution of the existing conflict between north and south.
The problem is disunity between Sunni and Shia and that niether side accepts our form of governing principles, prefering a theocracy. Germany had no disunity as the Nazis fled a beaten country for fear of prosecution. Japan had no disunity because of the edict of the emperor of Japan. Korea is even disimilar to Iraq because we have a clear and declared preference as to who's side we are on and that side has governing principles similar to our own. We are no longer in Vietnam, but if we were, it would be like Korea.
What is really sad is to have to make and argument against people who know the truth but are willing to lie like a rug for political advantage. Kind of reminds me of Hillary.
Sam Seder on Air America yesterday, he made a great point: McBush's plan is for American Troops to stay in Iraq long enough for them to stop dying, and then we can stay forever after that!
Actually, I've been pointing this out since the occupation turned "messy:" Alabama, like the rest of the south, was occupied by federal troops into the 1870s -- with much the same results! For turban-clad suicide bombers, substitute men in white sheets. For the al-Maliki government, substitute Republican "Reconstruction" statehouses. History DOES repeat itself.
There is a similarity between the South and Iraq, in that we have religious extremists who believe that non-believers will go to hell.
You are a bigot and you are stereotyping a whole region. Shame on you.
I'm not sure how it's bigoted or stereotyping to point out the fact that both Islam and Christianity profess to be the ultimate truth, and that those who don't believe as they do will go to hell. That's just pointing out doctrine, or was it the extremist line?
I think MsLiz is from Alabama [currently a resident?], as am I, and she know's what she's talking about on this issue.
There were approximately three dozen US troops killed in Germany after the armistice and way fewer in Japan. There were no religious factions with ancient hatreds of each other, armed and looking for an opportunity to drive the others out. For any of our national leaders to compare Iraq to Japan, Germany or the ex-confederacy is McCain like ignorance on display. And folks, a hostile temperament is no compensation for a dim intellect.
Point of clarification: An "Armistice" ended WWI, and German & Japanese surrender ended WWII. There's a big difference. I am unaware that any U.S. soldiers died as a result of post-surrender combat operations.
It is interesting to compare the situation post-U.S. Civil War and Iraq today. Both are occupations in which the occupied chafe under the yoke of the occupiers and a government not of their choosing.
Result? Insurgency: The Ku Klux Klan and criminal ex-rebel gangs (see Jesse James) in the South and all sorts of insurgent ne'er do wells in Iraq (the worst civil unrest in U.S. history outside the Civil War itself was the period from 1865 to about 1880).
In both cases, the U.S. grew tired of these occupations and changed course (well, at least U.S. voters today have). What happened after the "occupation" ended in the South? A massive investment in military bases across the old Confederacy, spawning a huge dependence in the region on federal largesse which helped rebuild a devastated economy.
It also sowed the seeds for generations of southern political militarism, Democrats and Republicans, who fought tooth and nail to make sure those dollars have kept flowing into their states.
But for the votes of senators and congressmen from the "Old South," I'd bet the Congress not only would have ended or "de-authorized" the war ON Iraq a long time ago, and may have moved to impeach Bush and Cheney as well.
Oh, and before I get flamed because I didn't mention it due to the dreaded 250-word limit, I am a Son of the South, too.
But, facts are facts. Look at the map and see which states benefit most substantially from U.S. military investment in bases, infrastructure, and so forth -- Virginia, Florida, the Carolinas, Georgia, etc.
It took well over 100 years for the South to be "reintegrated" into the United States. I date it at about 1965, with the passage of the Voting Rights Act, signed into law by Lyndon B. Johnson, another Son of the South. Of course, LBJ said afterward that the Democratic party "lost" the South for another generation as a result of it, but he valued statesmanship over partisanship by signing that and other civil rights laws into effect.
But LBJ was wrong -- the Democratic party "lost" the South for two generations. But there's hope, folks!
A Connecticut carpetbagger who moved South and has affected being a Texan ever since may well bring the South back to the Democratic fold. now and for future generations His name?: George W. Bush.
[insert sound of "Rebel Yell" here!]
Bill, this is the funnies piece I've read in a long time. Thank you for taking the 15 min. out of your life to write it. I've been following the primaries and I've spent most of the time looking up polls, and counting up delegates, and keeping track of who endorsed who... well, I needed this article to remind myself of why I chose to study politics for a living. You know, for all those political scientists out there, doing comparative politics, I bet this is news to them. I can see the a new generation of political scientist being inspired by McCain to write papers, books and doctoral dissertations on "Military bases abroad and successful occupations: a comparative case-study of Alabama and Iraq". This is a breakthrough! *in case it's not clear, I am being sarcastic.*
Entering those states is going back at least 100 years.
I would like to express my solidarity with the oppressed people of Iraq since I too come from a would-be nation which has felt the sting of Yankee imperialism. No our order, such as it is, is not enforced by a standing army or even a sitting one.
No those troops left in 1877. It is cultural imperialism of which I sing. We know we are inferior to our Yankee overlords and we have internalized this successful aggression against our collective psyche. So I would to thank any and all who have ever said anything bad about the South, thank you for putting us in our place. It is the natural order of things.
So come on down. Get that carpetbag out of storage, your great great grandparents probably had one, and visit America’s first, if somewhat recalcitrant, colony. Like the Iraqis we’ll be waiting for you.
We only treat Northerners rudely if they treat us that way.
We Southerners tend to be amiable, courteous, and generous. if we are treated rudely, we will respond in kind.
Whatever...
You also spend a lot of time patting yourselves on the back for being Southerners. It gets old after a while.
Back patting is a Southern habit although ass grabbing is a habit of many New Yorkers.
Generally speaking, most of us don't mention it until we start hearing the civil war era revisionist history; I think most of us see it as a past not worth revisiting, but stereotyping and revising the whole thing as "Union/Northerners = Good Guys / Confederacy/Southerners = Bad Guys" just infuriates many of us, as we know better, but mostly because we know that YOU know better, and simply don't care that you're wrong.
This is the great untold secret of the American South which is why they have supported the utter ruin of the USA: they educate each successive generation with vile race resentment but even worse hatred toward the people who kicked their morbidly obese butts in the Civil War. To them, that is the unforgiveable sin. The South is not ashamed of having committed the greatest immorality in world history - they are resentful that they were beaten over it. They are the ignorant field soldiers of the rightist radio army that has taken over and destroyed America. In this, we should expose them and run against them, educating the new Obama generation that this is who ruined America so that they will see the critical need to drop all else and save their country!
The Iraq war is not about freeing the people there and the Civil War was not about freeing the slaves. You obviously don't know anything about the Civil War. Like all wars it was about money. If Lincoln wanted to free the slave so bad why didn't he just do what England did and buy their freedom? It would have been cheaper in life's lost and money spent to have the war. Lincoln, your great northern hero was a racist. Google "Lincoln racist speeches" and see it for yourself. Atrocities committed against Southerners by our own countrymen where condoned by the Union. The South is still oppressed by America today. We supply 1/3 or the country's oil, most of the natural gas, and coal. Our land is environmentally ruined and raped, but hey, we are just a bunch of dumb religious f***'s down here so what does it matter to you. The Democrats lost the Southern vote by putting in racist programs like affirmative action. I think they meant well but any program that helps one race over another is racist.
Geeze and I thought you just didn't like their music.
Southeners are wonderful folks.
But hey, at least Germany and Japan are like Iraq in that they are other countries.
I can't believe I am wasting 15 seconds of my life to type this, but having military bases in Alabama, Georgia and South Carolina does not constitute a permanent occupation. Does RedState really believe that 140 years after the Civil War, American troops have a "peace time standing presence" in the American south?
Probably the funniest thing I've read all day.
It seems like both the German and Japanese peoples fought us for years after their national leaderships were defeated and deposed. No, wait, that was the states of the Deep South. No, wait, they just ripped off our tourists, lynched their own black citizens, and treated Northerners uniformly rudely.
Whatever.
You were the one in the back of the class, snoring when history was taught!!!! Read a book!!!! TRY to learn something this time!!!! Ripping off tourist, wrongful killings and being rude happens all over this country!!! Been to Chicago, LA or NY lately--enough said!!!! Lighten up!!!!!
They lynched blacks in NYC during the Civil War it wasn't just in the South. The worst race riots we not in the South either. Gee, and what about Rodney King? I have encountered more racism when traveling up North, they just do it behind closed doors. I would rather know who hates me, then I can act accordingly.
Ya know, I think this is the only dumbassed posting by you that I've ever encountered here. Oh well, maybe you missed your morning dooby; dry spells are bad for you ;-)
No doubt we southerners will always be seen in such a light, but the fact is the official national version of history before, during and after the civil war is incredibly biased in one direction, and the clueless presumption that racial crimes and tensions existed primarily in the south is the biggest point of revisionist propaganda of all.
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