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Yes, We Do Need Separation of Church and State: Repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" Maintains These Boundaries

Posted: 06/10/10 04:14 PM ET

Archbishop for the Military Services USA Timothy Broglio released a statement earlier this month arguing that the federal government should not repeal the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, which prevents gay and lesbian men and women from serving openly in the military. He claims that doing so would compromise the faith and role of Roman Catholic military chaplains. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. His arguments are so spurious and misguided it is hard to find a place to begin in refuting them.

The separation of church and state is not threatened by a change in the DADT policy, despite the archbishop's claims. No Roman Catholic chaplain, nor any other chaplain with negative views of homosexuality, will be required to teach, preach, or counsel anything outside their own beliefs. No gay or lesbian serving in the military would expect to go to such a chaplain and receive a blessing on his or her sexual orientation.

The archbishop restates in his letter what everyone knows: The Roman Catholic Church believes and teaches that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered" and "are contrary to the natural law" and that "Homosexual persons are called to chastity." If you go to a chaplain with those beliefs under a repealed DADT, that's still what you're going to get in the way of counsel. What you won't get under the repeal is a dishonorable discharge to boot!

I wholeheartedly agree with the archbishop that "no restrictions or limitations on the teaching of Catholic morality can be accepted. First Amendment rights regarding the free exercise of religion must be respected." I would fight to the death for those protections. Fortunately, no such restrictions or limitations would be required after DADT is repealed. Period. To suggest otherwise indicates either ignorance of the proposed legislation or a disingenuousness that is not befitting a clergyman.

The archbishop goes on to say that "unions between individuals of the same gender resembling marriage will not be accepted or blessed by Catholic chaplains." Of course not. No chaplain is required to marry or bless any relationship against his or her will--just as no such requirement is made of any clergyperson in American society. This is a red herring--a strenuous objection to a problem that does not exist. DADT is not about relationships or marriage. It is about who is allowed to serve their country in the military.

The archbishop inexplicably goes on to drag alcoholics into the debate: "For years, those struggling with alcoholism have benefitted [sic] from Alcoholics Anonymous. Like homosexuality, there is rarely a cure. There is a control through a process, which is guarded by absolute secrecy. It is an equivalent to 'Don't ask don't tell'. The process has worked well for some time without the charge that it is discriminatory."

I can say as a recovering alcoholic and a gay man that there is no end to the problems with this analogy. No one would argue with the reality of the havoc created by an addiction to alcohol--a toll of pain and trouble visited on the individual, families, and society alike. No such social toll is caused by men and women proudly saying to the world, "I'm gay." Saying that there is no cure for homosexuality, as for alcoholism, is to say that there is something that needs curing. The archbishop is welcome to his opinion, but he must admit that it flies in the face of contrary judgments by every reputable psychiatric association in the world.

The secrecy referred to in AA is an internal protection, providing a safe place to talk about one's drinking. There is no secrecy recommended or required about being an alcoholic--only a secrecy about the identity of those one has met at an AA meeting. In fact, part of the healing process for alcoholics in AA is "coming out" to family and friends about their alcoholism, making restitution for the pain caused others, and a healthy admission of the truth: "Hello. My name is Gene, and I'm an alcoholic."

It is terribly misguided to equate Alcoholics Anonymous--which encourages its adherents to admit that they have no control over their drinking, except by the grace of a higher power--to the sheer, white-knuckled suppression of innate feelings by those who find themselves affectionally oriented to persons of the same gender. And it does justice to neither. Such a suppression of feelings is certainly possible--gay and lesbian people have been doing it for centuries, with enormous and tragic consequences. The question is: Is it right? Is it healthy? Is it what God wants for one of his beloved children? I think not.

I am not saying that the archbishop has no right to his religiously held beliefs. My question is whether the church has the right to impose those beliefs on the state. Separation of church and state works both ways! Just as the archbishop argues that he should not be coerced by the state to change his beliefs (I totally agree!), so must the church not impose its beliefs on the secular state and its military. The church has no right to argue for less-than-equal rights for any American citizen.

 
 
 
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05:36 PM on 06/14/2010
As usual, Gene hits the nail squarely in the head. I am getting tired of Roman Catholic hierarchs seeking to legislate their understandings in U.S. law. The 14th amendment addresses Broglio's concerns quite directly.
11:06 AM on 06/14/2010
If a chaplain wants to withhold ministry to gays, let him. We gays never needed his kind anyhow.
10:14 AM on 06/14/2010
right on!
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esl
08:15 AM on 06/14/2010
The Catholic Church is preaching its way into oblivion. The bishop has no right by the teachings of Jesus Christ to comment on rules set by the military. "Render unto Caesar..."
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JohnFromCensornati
Free your mind and your ass will follow.
08:54 AM on 06/14/2010
As least theoretically, "we the people" run this show, not Caesar. The zombie messiah also said something like "Do unto others what you would have them do unto you"
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ChasG
Unborn, unchanging, undying Universe
10:11 AM on 06/14/2010
I agree. You had me going for a moment, though, when you referred to "the zombie messiah" I wasn't sure if you were referring to Jesus Christ or Barack Obama. Don't worry, the quotation you provided cleared that up.
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07:39 AM on 06/14/2010
Well, we were all born naked! Religion and puritanical minds have made the human body into something unnatural really. We are animals all the same. Keep Church and State seperate always and forever because mixing the two is the real problem, the real issue. No one should be ashamed of his/her body, The naked body is the natural state of our being, so accept it and you will be happier and have less guilt and harbor less hard feelings towards others who donot meet your definition of being straight or gay, and worry less about who is looking at you in the shower.
08:48 AM on 06/14/2010
so does that mean its a good idea for men and women to shower together? i think not! by your logic, we should do away with clothes all together. speak for yourself about being an animal. and this has nothing to do with shame. this has everything to do with feeling uncomfortable about someone who is OPENly homosexual and feeling uncomfortable about being naked with that person. Women are not forced to be naked with men, nor should they.. so why should i be forced to be naked with people who are OPEN about same sex attractions?
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09:38 AM on 06/14/2010
What's wrong with showering together? It's economical and saves on water and heating costs.

And you can't blame others for your own homophobia. That shortcoming is your own fault and only you can work on trying to make yourself a better person.
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PopsicleStand
11:56 AM on 06/14/2010
If you feel that immature about nudity and who is and is not looking at your body for whatever reason you should stick to showering alone.
11:43 PM on 06/13/2010
What happens if the chaplain refuses communion to a gay soldier? A discrimination lawsuit against the army? Dismissal of the chaplain?
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07:41 AM on 06/14/2010
The chaplain should treat everyone with the same dignity, no exceptions. If he/she can't, perhaps they are in the wrong profession.
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dancingstu
Christian, liberal lawyer
11:01 PM on 06/17/2010
The chaplain would have worse things to worry about when his time comes.

Matthew 25:
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
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Nick Santiago
10:35 PM on 06/13/2010
For Bishop Gene Robinson: I have always wanted to meet you ever since I read your book, 'Stranger at the Gate'. You are an inspiration to those of us who are 'gender queer' and believers in Christ. Reading your book was very affirming for me and I appreciated your candid look at the religious leaders you worked with while closeted and convinced you were a freak inside. All of us who are gender queer know how that feels all too well.

I remember when you were being considered for bishop and I read a statement from another bishop (can't remember who) who stated that he would not comment on whether or not being gay was acceptable to God but that he will back you because, "the Spirit moves in that man and it is not my place' to un-chose what God has chosen to use. It is truly the unmistakable mark of the Holy Spirit that convinces those who know it when they see it. I too have earned the respect of many anti-gay Christians for the same reason. I am a Jesus freak, more so than many of the 'straight' Christians I meet.

God has used you for something truly special, sir. Just the fact that you exist is a blessing and an inspiration to countless souls as they search for mercy and understanding. Thank you for having the gonads to answer God's call...not everyone does.
09:40 PM on 06/13/2010
apart from the entire church and state issue... what about straight people who do not want to shower and live in close quarters with OPEN gay people. are their rights of lesser value? is that any different from a woman not wanting to be naked around a man? i know there are lots of gay servicemen/women, but allowing it to be OPEN would make me feel a little strange being naked everyday with people who are open about same sex attractions. what do you think?
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JudgeMoonbox
09:52 PM on 06/13/2010
"Because there are no atheists in foxholes and anyone who has served in combat knows this."

They are about the same as someone who in the Vietnam era wanted to claim Conscientious Objector status but coulnd't satisfy the draft board that they were truly conscientious.
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JudgeMoonbox
09:58 PM on 06/13/2010
Again, my computer pasted the wrong quote, and I just got it fixed last week! I need to get in the habit of checking the paste jobs.
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Nick Santiago
10:41 PM on 06/13/2010
That is probably the biggest issue that needs addressing, in my opinion. I can understand how it would make you uncomfortable. I am transgendered, my physical gender being primarily female and therefore required to use 'women's' facilities. It makes ME uncomfortable to dress and shower in the gym surrounded by naked women. My eyes are constantly glued to the floor, terrified that someone might think I looked at them and get upset or uncomfortable.

The fact is, you and I and our soldiers are ALREADY showering or whatnot with queers and straights mixed. We need to learn to respect one another and keep all of our eyes to the floor.
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Euterpe360
I'm just a little bi-partisan
12:09 PM on 06/16/2010
Fully agree minus the "eyes to the floor." Grow a set and deal with the fact that not everyone is like you.
09:21 PM on 06/13/2010
I think that in a lot of ways the American Catholic Church has become a bit lost and off topic. Instead of saying this is who we are this is what we believe and offering practical spiritual direction they spend a lot of time saying what they aren't or what they are against. This is totally unnecessary and really puts the Church in a defensive posture when one is not necessary. We all know what your against now tell us how you help us along a spiritual path.
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Nick Santiago
09:28 PM on 06/13/2010
Amen!
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josephRoehl
RainbowHumanityRising, 600 million
07:24 PM on 06/13/2010
Wow cool as...

Iceland has UNANIMOUSLY LEGALIZED GAY MARRIAGE 49-0, sounds like some democracies KNOW that all their citizens are ENTITLED to the same exact rights. Wow that means that gays can legally marry in Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Netherlands, Spain, Portugal and Belgium. And that means all of Europe has to comply with the legal status of those marriages. Taxes sure are going to change, and so will gay families with their millions of children KNOW that equality means exactly that, not second class offerings from the prejudiced ever again.
Wake up America, take back our land from these professional liar orgs, international corporations of religio-fundies tied more closely to Islamic Sharia laws than to our US Constitution which they're trying to overthrow for imposition of a theocracy of corporations and religio-institutions.

http://advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2010/06/11/Iceland_Legalizes_Gay_Marriage/

The nation of Iceland, which is the only country with an openly gay prime minister, voted unanimously on Friday to legalize same-sex marriage.

The Althingi parliament voted 49-0 to change the wording of its marriage legislation to include same-sex couples.
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josephRoehl
RainbowHumanityRising, 600 million
07:44 PM on 06/13/2010
and Iceland is the OLDEST DEMOCRACY on Earth!
11:49 PM on 06/13/2010
Point to consider...The government didn't do anything the PEOPLE elected by the PEOPLE voted to legalize it. The PEOPLE in the U.S. aren't as obliging.
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
12:59 AM on 06/14/2010
Given the religious fanaticism and bigotry in this country, I am not surprised. Some of the reason is that while there is a state church in Iceland, people are not religious fanatics. They did not have high-pressure groups like the RCC and the Mormons who spent big bucks to deny us the right to marry in at least two states. The church is not allowed to stick its nose into other people's business.

The only reason we cannot legally marry throughout this country is because of those who feel they have the right to decide who can and cannot marry. I wonder how they would feel if THEIR right to marry was denied.
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IndependentMeans
Some people are wise, and some are otherwise.
07:23 PM on 06/13/2010
Sadly, the Catholic Church lost me when I got divorced. I then had a gay son only to be condemned by my sister for the way I "raised" him. Of course, the Church could tell her to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge and I think she would consider it. Religion is there for support and kindredship, or so we are taught to believe. Actually, I now believe it is there to reassure one of their own self rightgeousness. My motto therefore is do unto others.
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BetterDeadthanRedState
Speech isn't free when only the rich can afford it
09:04 PM on 06/13/2010
To paraphrase Christ, who said that the sabbath was made for humans and not the other way around, if an organized religion is no longer serving its adherents so much as demanding service from them, then it has lost all its worth.
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Democrat in the South
Empathy, the most important word
09:33 PM on 06/13/2010
Well said.
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IndependentMeans
Some people are wise, and some are otherwise.
09:51 PM on 06/13/2010
Very impressive, thank you.
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donmarchi
02:19 PM on 07/13/2010
I am so sorry that the church has caused you and your family such pain. That is the paradox, The Church is the People and People are the Church. Only God can render judgement at the end of our days and will decide if we treated his creation with care and love, us ordinary humans can't possibly know all that is in the mind of God.
There are Catholics out here that are willing to open our hearts to serve all God's children without consulting Canon law first.
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gal416
is a Bible verse † † †
05:12 PM on 06/13/2010
"so must the church not impose its beliefs on the secular state and its military."

And he (Jesus) said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15

I don't remember in the word of God where Jesus said to leave anyone out. A man can't serve two masters Bishop, you're going to have to choose one or the other.
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josephRoehl
RainbowHumanityRising, 600 million
06:13 PM on 06/13/2010
Jesus was gay, and he also warned hypocrites who judge others will be themselves judged...and your types are so busy judging gays, your own souls became devils ...sounds like you covet other human beings' rights to equality because you simply love bigotry and pick and choose your simple travesties while ignoring that JC rejected Old Testament judgments and said only God is Good, so you're neither good, nor God, so next time you think you're better than Bishop Robinson, try re-reading the gospels.
07:06 AM on 06/14/2010
Jesus NEVER EXISTED AS A HISTORICAL PERSON111
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Bloodhound41
06:50 PM on 06/13/2010
He said, (according to the bible anyway) "preach it". Nowhere do I remember his saying enforce it through force or coertion. Most of what religion teaches is through man's interpretation added on to many times by other men. Let each believe as he will but KEEP IT TO HIMSELF.
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gutenmorgen
a.k.a. crowsnest
05:11 PM on 06/13/2010
There are compelling reasons other than those advanced by Archbishop Broglio to refrain from abolishing DADT before repealing USC 10-654. Why? Because DADT is not the law which governs the dismissal of gay soldiers from the armed forces. That law is USC 10-654. If DADT is repealed but USC 10-654 is not, then the legal circumstances for gay persons in the armed forces have reverted to the time before DADT. That is bad, very bad.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
06:12 PM on 06/13/2010
For goodness' sake...we ought to repeal USC 10-654 and DADT concurrently!
02:02 PM on 06/13/2010
GOOD MORNING!!! MY FELLOW HOMO SAPIENS WHICH MEANS THE SPECIES WHO IS WISE.
A TAOIST PRAYER
Oh, Great Goddess and Great Spirit for they are all a part of CHI, thank you for guiding me thus far on my life's journey.
Guide me this day spiritually, mentally, emotionally and physically that I may be in tune with thee and learn the lessons thou has to teach me that I may know the interconnection of all things in thy seamless web of life where everything belongs and nothing is lost and becoming, transformation, regeneration, mutation, evolution and change are the way of all things.
Oh, Great Goddess and Great Spirit for they are all part of CHI, let me always be aware that the web that connects each to me weaves its tapestry throughout my being uniting me with all for separateness is an illusion for all are one.
And let me always rest content in the arms of the unfolding universe and always be aware that we are all prisoners of preconditioning and only through self discipline, meditation and self cultivation can we break free of those prisons so we may find our spiritual path and grow in enlightenment and spirituality.
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Nick Santiago
10:01 PM on 06/13/2010
That was beautiful! I have always loved Taoism and believe Christ studied under such masters as well. For myself, God, Jesus, me, you are all a part of the great Spirit (CHI) or force that connects us all, permeates the universe and gently guides the hearts of man to better truth through social evolution.

I have a personal prayer that I wrote for myself that says almost the same thing, just a few 'theological' differences. We are all connected, every plant and animal and human and star. How else does one explain the idea of 'omni-present'? That which is God, the creator and comforter, IS the universe as I see it.

Put another way, I believe that we are like little mites on the hand of God. The universe is the body of God. Just as every cell, every hair, every drop of blood is a part of 'me' so is every physical manifestation we witness a part of God...be it a chair or a child.
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01:53 PM on 06/13/2010
Let's keep "don't ask, don't tell", only if the churches agree to pay taxes.
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ez duz it
οὐκ ἔστιν θεός
02:31 PM on 06/13/2010
I get that you were being ironic :-) But let's push things even further...

Let's eliminate DADT and also make the churches pay taxes since they are acting as political action committees, thus violating the terms of their 501(c)(3) tax-exempt status.
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JoeTroll
Prove your own claims. I'm not your intern.
03:46 PM on 06/13/2010
Amen.
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Ioan Lightoller
Proud Gay Pagan Man, Living Happily With Husband
06:03 PM on 06/13/2010
Oh my yes! I'll raise a glass to that proposition!