Got your attention.

Everyone is saying that Obama has the lead in the delegates and in the popular vote, but that is not exactly true as far as the votes are concerned, according to Clinton supporters. The figures from NBC are:

Including Florida And Michigan, Clinton wins by 30,657:
Clinton 13,521,832
Obama 13,497,175

In the Approved Contests Obama wins by 598,266:
Obama 12,920,961
Clinton 12,322,695

With Florida, where both were on the ballot, Obama wins by 303,494
Obama 13,497,175
Clinton 13,193,681

(RealClearPolitics has close to the same totals)


In Florida, it was kind of cool to see a primary with no campaigning. No money spent at all. Everyone on the ballot.

I don't see why the Florida votes shouldn't count - except to punish the Democratic voters of Florida, who really didn't schedule the early primaries. The Republican Governor and legislature scheduled the early vote and forced the Democrats to go along.

Democrats should also be very wary of turning off Florida voters - a significant swing state that decided the last two presidential elections.

In Michigan, Obama supporters urged people to vote the uncommitted line, which may have been larger, or smaller, had his name been on the ballot. But counting Michigan is a harder position to sell.

Florida has 210 delegates at stake, and Michigan has 156. Should their Super Delagates be seated?

What is fair? We should probably have new primaries in Florida and Michigan, and see how they come out. If nothing is done, one side is going to feel very aggrieved and the Democrats may lose the general election to the Republicans. 2.1 million Democrats cast votes in the Florida primary.

If the Super Delegates are going to be guided by the popular vote, we might as well get a good idea of what that popular vote is.

Complicating all this is the fact that much of the popular vote came from caucuses, which on the one hand may not be fair to Hillary - since her older voters don't want to spend two hours arguing about who they are going to vote for - but on the other hand may not be fair to Obama, since caucus voters often only represent a small fraction of total Democratic registrants in the state. One figure I saw stated that only one in twenty registered voters comes to the caucuses. So caucus voters are over-represented in the delegate vote and under-represented in the popular vote.

One solution might be to have a re-vote in Michigan and Florida and allow no campaigning. No Television. No Radio. No Newspaper ads. Maybe one more debate.

This would be a novel experiment in how to take the money out of politics.

Campaign contributions, of course, have been perverting and grossly distorting the political process for decades, as Obama has said many times.

Another idea that has been floated is a "firehouse" contest in Michigan in May or June, which would involve fewer polling places and shorter hours. What we need is a really rich guy, how about it Bloomberg or Soros? ... to come up with the money to show the rest of the world that democracy can work in the US.

Ironically, Florida and Michigan flouted the rules because they wanted to have more of an influence in choosing the next President. Now with a possible Do-Over looming, they may be the most decisive primaries.


jfleetwood@aol.com



Free Hit Counter




 
 

Comments
61
Pending Comments
0

Want to reply to a comment? Hint: Click "Reply" at the bottom of the comment; after being approved your comment will appear directly underneath the comment you replied to

View Comments:
Page: 1 2 Next › Last » (2 pages total)
- Argoth See Profile I'm a Fan of Argoth permalink

Sure, Florida delegates should be seated, but after a re-vote. Without the democrats being able to campaign there it just goes by name recognition. Clinton wins that hands down. Heck, that is why she lead in national polls until Obama started surging. The delegates should be seated but from a level playing field.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:30 AM on 03/08/2008
- cynara See Profile I'm a Fan of cynara permalink

You got my attention all right. But its a stretch to include Michigan in any tally of popular votes, considering Hillary Clinton was alone on the ballot...

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:42 PM on 03/07/2008
- JakeEasy See Profile I'm a Fan of JakeEasy permalink

If they don't redo their vote, then MI and FLA don't get to seat their delegates. But delegates seated at the Democratic convention have nothing to do with the vote in November, when both states will count. The purpose of the game of the primaries is to not to pick a primary winner, but to select someone who would win in November. Those are two key states. We need the candidate that will win those in the election that counts.

In FLA, Hillary stands a better chance than Barack, although it will probably be a red state and the electoral college is winner take all. We need a vote, not a stupid caucus, in Mi. That would tell us something. A caucus is just a set of mini-superdelegates.

Good article.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:33 AM on 03/07/2008
- JakeEasy See Profile I'm a Fan of JakeEasy permalink

Hey, dude. We don't care about the popular vote, it's the delegate count that matters. Oh, unless she has more delegates and we have more votes. Or.... Hey, this is all confusing me. Let's make it simple. Whatever it takes to get my main guy, the Idol from Illinois, the nomination that's what I support. Whoa. Gotta go get a latte. Brain is hurtin', man.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:28 AM on 03/07/2008
- EspressoAtNoon See Profile I'm a Fan of EspressoAtNoon permalink

How disingenious to include Florida and Michigan when Hillary agreed with her opponents before the Primaries not to count those two states.

Either those states have new elections or the delegates get divided 50/50. Anything else would be stealing the election. And if she tries to steal the election then she loses the general election on Protest from the Democratic electorate.

She is proving to be as dishonest and trashy as George W. Bush in the Florida 2000 elections against Gore.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:45 AM on 03/07/2008
- BeyondKen See Profile I'm a Fan of BeyondKen permalink

If you'd like to know how to steal an election, google "Obama knows ballots".

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:07 AM on 03/07/2008
- drewdawgsea See Profile I'm a Fan of drewdawgsea permalink

I think you need to figure two things out. First you don't know how to subtract: Obama 13,497,175 to Clinton 13,193,681 is a total of 303,494 not 24,657. Second, you can't figure in Michigan's total since she was the only one on the ballot. By those measures he wouldn't have gotten any votes at all in Michigan because he was not on the ballot to vote for. So forget Michigan. Clearly all you Hillary supporters are reaching for any ounce of hope you have left in getting the nomination. Too bad you all don't believe in HOPE and think it is just another word or you just might stand a chance.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:11 PM on 03/06/2008
- LeftRight See Profile I'm a Fan of LeftRight permalink

You need to mention one more point about MI. Since Obama kept his pledge, and his name off the ballot, had you written in his name, your ballot would have been thrown out! Therefore, he didn't get a single vote in MI, BUT Hillary lost to uncommitted.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:26 AM on 03/07/2008
- BeyondKen See Profile I'm a Fan of BeyondKen permalink

According to the Michigan Department Of State, Sen. Clinton received 328,309 votes while uncommitted got 238,168, Dennis Kucinich got 21,715 votes, Chris Dodd 3,845 and Mike Gravel 2,361.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:43 AM on 03/07/2008
- Blake Fleetwood - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Blake Fleetwood permalink

You are right about the math. I changed it in the main post. But it doesn't really change anything.
Hillary may soon move ahead in the popular vote, if she is not ahead already.Penn should do it for her.

Then what do we do?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:38 AM on 03/07/2008
- ATLiberal See Profile I'm a Fan of ATLiberal permalink

She MAY move ahead?? And, guess what: She MAY not.

Also, Maine, Iowa, Washington and Nevada have not released their vote totals. Those were Obama blowouts except for Nevada, which was a virtual tie. Let's add those numbers in and see how it looks. Seeing as how we want every vote to count, right??

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:58 AM on 03/07/2008
- DRHoen See Profile I'm a Fan of DRHoen permalink

You don't see why the Florida votes, where there was no campaigning (supposedly) should not count? Have you noticed that in every single state that Obama campaigns, his support increases, usually by large margins? Let's see, Wife-of-president-Clinton vs. never-heard-of-him-Obama, with no campaigning. I wonder who wins?

Anyway your point is moot since they're going do it properly. When Clinton's support goes way down and Obama's way up after they campaign, will you admit you were wrong?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:55 PM on 03/06/2008
- LeftRight See Profile I'm a Fan of LeftRight permalink

Not to mention the fact that voter turnout in FL was lower than a normal primary season, and MUCH lower than this years' turnout!

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:27 AM on 03/07/2008
- PacificGatePost See Profile I'm a Fan of PacificGatePost permalink

Maybe she's figuring THIS out .......>

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/02/obama-social-phenomenon.html

It's a huge uphill climb.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:46 PM on 03/06/2008
- ATLiberal See Profile I'm a Fan of ATLiberal permalink

My first attempt didn't make it through. Let me try again.

THE REAL NUMBERS:
Based on the raw vote at RealClearPolitics, the net vote is 293,666 in favor of Obama. They do not have the MI numbers, so I googled the official MI caucus numbers and they were a net plus to Clinton of 90,464, which gives Obama a 203,202 lead.

Finally, per RealClearPolitcs, Iowa, Nevada, Washington and Maine have not yet released their vote totals. 3 of the 4 were Obama blowouts and Nevada was a virtual dead heat.

I wanted to correct the false information on this post.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:08 PM on 03/06/2008
- Blake Fleetwood - Huffpost Blogger I'm a Fan of Blake Fleetwood permalink

2008 Democratic Popular Vote from RealClearPolitics
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

Seems to back up what I said. You have false information.
This is a direct cut and paste

Popular Vote Count
State Date % Vote In Obama Clinton
Popular Vote Total - - 12,999,088 12,410,650

Popular Vote (w/FL) - - 13,575,302 13,281,636

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)* - - 13,575,302 13,609,945

Looks like Clinton is ahead by more than 34,000

Blake

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 11:27 PM on 03/06/2008
- willshirea See Profile I'm a Fan of willshirea permalink



I just wanted to add some more math to the topic. If we are going to discuss the popular vote, which I believe should be validated, we should take a look at the percentages as well.

Based on where things stand with this razor thin election [2.3% between them], I am of the opinion that we MUST ensure that EVERY ballot caste is counted, every voice heard, finish the contest.

After all...this is a democracy...right?


2008 Democratic Popular Vote from RealClearPolitics
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html
--

As of 3/7/08:

Popular Vote Total - -
Obama -- 13,000,655 = 51.2%
Clinton -- 12,411,705 = 48.8%
-----------------------------------
Total: 25,411,825

Difference of: 588,950 or 2.3%


=======================
Popular Vote (w/FL) - -
Obama --13,576,869
Clinton --13,282,691

Popular Vote (w/FL & MI)* - -
Obama --13,576,869
Clinton --13,611,000


"If the Super Delegates are going to be guided by the popular vote, we might as well get a good idea of what that popular vote is."



    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:45 PM on 03/07/2008
- ATLiberal See Profile I'm a Fan of ATLiberal permalink

Allow me to respond. My math was predicated on giving Clinton the difference between her total in MI and the vote for uncommitted.

Are you saying she should get a 328,000 to 0 vote in MI? You believe that is fair?

I believe that Obama should AT LEAST get credit for as many as "uncommitted" received, if you are going to actually include MI.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:52 AM on 03/07/2008
- thicky See Profile I'm a Fan of thicky permalink

Gosh, if you're sincere about changing the rules whilst in the middle of the process then in addition to re-votes in Michigan and Florida the Democratic Party ought to change the superdelegate rules as well: eliminate the superdelegates entirely and have the nomination decided only by a democratic primary vote?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 09:51 PM on 03/06/2008
- JimR See Profile I'm a Fan of JimR permalink

Heck, since we're changing rules, why not eliminate the "magic number" of delegates needed to win? The candidate with the highest number of delegates at the convention gets the nomination.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 12:40 PM on 03/07/2008
- PinkoAttic See Profile I'm a Fan of PinkoAttic permalink

" Ironically, Florida and Michigan flouted the rules because they wanted to have more of an influence in choosing the next President. Now with a possible Do-Over looming, they may be the decisive primaries. "

It is more disgusting that it is ironic. If Clinton succeeds in getting a make up vote, then the prize will have been won in flagrant disregard to the rules.

Rules are made to be respected and punishments meted out as deterrants. If neither are to apply to the contest for the Democratic nomination, then why bother having a contest in the first place ? Why not simply annoint the candidate who has the most influence within the party establishment and be done with it ? It would save a lot of money and a lot of broken dreams. It might also ensure that such annointed candidate would stand a hope in hell of ultimately being elected.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:52 PM on 03/06/2008
- LeftRight See Profile I'm a Fan of LeftRight permalink

I think that a do-over would be a good idea, provided that in the future the DNC not be so stupid as to completely eliminate any state which breaks its randomly chosen rules, especially when a republican legislature and republican governor are the ones moving the date too early, as was the case in FL.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:29 AM on 03/07/2008
- snesich See Profile I'm a Fan of snesich permalink

Hey Blake,
If you like what was done in Michigan so much, you would have loved "voting" in the Soviet Union, where frequently only one person appeared on the ballot.

If you want Hillary, the corporate candidate, to win, just say so. No need to twist yourself into dumb arguments and manipulate facts.

And if Hillary isn't the corporate candidate, can you explain why she has taken more money from big corporations than any other candidate, including all of the Republicans?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:51 PM on 03/06/2008
- tbone99 See Profile I'm a Fan of tbone99 permalink

Obama 's no slouch in that dept either.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 10:25 PM on 03/06/2008
- PingMama See Profile I'm a Fan of PingMama permalink

For you Hillary supporters, I have one question:

Name me one thing that gives Hillary the experience to handle that phone ringing at 3:00 a.m.?

What security clearance does she have?

What event took place where she had to make a critical judgement affect security?

None, nada

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:44 PM on 03/06/2008
- Lemeritus See Profile I'm a Fan of Lemeritus permalink

Ping, this isn't really a piece about Clinton's experience or the red phone ad; it's about the miserable mess of a primary process the Democrats have to dig their way through.

Concerning both the ad and Clinton's experience, however... phones really do ring at 3 a.m. and the voters in Ohio may have decided HRC was the one they wanted on our end of the call. It's a visceral decision but, in its way, valid.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:34 AM on 03/07/2008
- LeftRight See Profile I'm a Fan of LeftRight permalink

But to be fair, he doesn't have the experience either. Course, he's not claiming that he's the one with experience, so....

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:30 AM on 03/07/2008
- maggieb See Profile I'm a Fan of maggieb permalink

Read the article, then make a comment of relevance...Are'nt you one of Obama's well-educated supporters?

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 08:03 PM on 03/06/2008
- 1dogs2 See Profile I'm a Fan of 1dogs2 permalink

The headline on this piece is extremely misleading. Misleading headlines are dangerous because there are many who only read headlines and then run around stating misinformation as fact, citing this site as their source.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:39 PM on 03/06/2008
- LeeFromVA See Profile I'm a Fan of LeeFromVA permalink

The candidate with 100 PERCENT NAME RECOGNITION now wants to claim the votes in a state where her opponent was not allowed to campaign. Maybe Hillary can find some other states they're not allowed to campaign in, she'd love that. Shouldn't Obama be given an opportunity to make his case to the people of FL? We all know that when given a chance to campaign, Obama does much better. Oh wait, I get it now. Could that be why you want to count FL? Of course it is.

    Favorite    Flag as abusive Posted 07:35 PM on 03/06/2008
Page: 1 2 Next › Last » (2 pages total)
Comments are closed for this entry

You must be logged in to reply to this comment. Log in