Waterboarding vs. Hammers vs. Genitals

The line on waterboarding from the right-wing Hot Air blog reads as follows:

"It's obvious in retrospect that the waterboarding of animals like Zubaydah was an exercise in restraint, not an orgy of mistreatment. In the wake of 9-11 it might have been easy for officers to justify all kinds of treatment that, thank goodness, they don't seem to have even contemplated. They used one method that was known not to leave lasting damage and that breaks subjects very quickly."

Goddamn. The author of this post, Bryan Preston, thinks we're being merciful by waterboarding terror suspects. Thank goodness, he says, that our officers haven't contemplated other, harsher treatments that leave lasting damage. Which officers? How harsh? Maybe he's suggesting something like this:

Our people would never contemplate something that harsh.

The comments under Preston's post are an education in the far-right's facile, myopic position on torture. The comments spell out the red-faced, foaming, poopy-diaper cowardice which has been so indicative of the right-wing since 9/11: the utter absence of dignity, honor and morality which the Bush White House has both exploited and fueled for too many years.

The Hot Air commenters believe that real torture is strictly the tool of our enemies. Real torture, according to commenter "locomotivebreath1901" is defined as:

"hammers vs. genitals, power drills to the eye balls and people who saw heads off."

Commenter "Griz" defines real torture as:

"The mutilation, limb dismemberment, skin removal, gutting, burning, drilling that those animals do to our guys."

Of course some of these things are technically homicide and not torture. And the commenters aren't clear about how "our guys" will be treated by a future enemy who knows we torture their guys. But we get the point, however batshit screwy it might be. They're saying that Evildoer Torture can beat up our American Torture; therefore our Torture isn't really Torture. In other words, we would only be torturing people if we were either smashing their nards with hammers or killing them for real instead of merely pretending to kill them -- or accidentally killing them.

All of this is in response to former CIA interrogator John Kiriakou who told ABC News this week that waterboarding is necessary, because if we don't do it, there could be another attack.

"What happens if we don't waterboard a person, and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack," Kiriakou said. "I would have trouble forgiving myself."

But how far do we go before the means no longer justifies the ends? All New Extreme Waterboarding? Hammer vs. genitals? At what point does the gothic horror of the American torture chambers outweigh that which they aim to prevent? The president and the vice president have said they will do whatever is necessary to keep us safe. But how far, when operating within a bubble devoid of accountability, will they go? The answer to this question could very well have been degaussed from those CIA interrogation videotapes.

It's clear from the historical volume and tone of the far-right's pro-torture language that most of the Bush Republican base and media, tanked up on paranoia and fear, would climb over each other to be the first to mandate that our interrogation officers let fly the hoods and electrodes; the feces and the dogs; the balls and the hammering -- you know... the Rush Limbaugh fraternity pranks.

As we have observed, there is practically no limit to the authoritarian reach of the commander-in-chief and his roster of interrogators during wartime, especially if the justifications for these policies are rationalized enough.

-What happens if we don't [flay] a person, and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack. I would have trouble forgiving myself.

-What happens if we don't [strappado] a person, and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack. I would have trouble forgiving myself.

-What happens if we don't [pear of anguish] a person, and we don't get that nugget of information, and there's an attack. I would have trouble forgiving myself.

If we permit waterboarding -- a technique during which the suspect literally believes he is going to die -- what won't we permit in order to keep the evildoers from killing us? Ultimately, there is no limit to the extreme measures which threatened and frightened human beings will allow -- especially human beings of the scared shitless species, like Hot Air's Bryan Preston or Michelle Malkin -- and it doesn't seem to matter if the threat is legitimate, exaggerated or fabricated for votes and polling bumps.

The popular far-right rationalization Either-We-Torture-or-We-Die has the potential to generate bumper-magnet support for just about anything -- even though it's disingenuous, nearsighted horseshit.

First, the blowback from this policy will make us less safe and more susceptible to an attack. Now and always. The blowback from Abu Ghraib alone has yet to manifest itself.

Secondly, given our extraordinarily enormous and expensive military-industrial and intelligence establishment, the ultimate safety of our citizens and cities appears to come down to... what? Torture? Sorry, no. If the shopping list for preventing a terrorist attack is a wooden plank, a hanky and a jug of water, I want my goddamn money back.

The reality is that the cost of doing business as a democracy is a certain level of danger. Freedom and liberty are, by their very nature, porous.

That's why, in the face of terrorism, we can't allow ourselves to acquiesce to unchecked executive power; invasions of privacy; torture; illegal searches; or warrantless eavesdropping in order to ameliorate the inherent dangers of a free and open society. This is non-negotiable and it's disgraceful that these authoritarian policies of the Bush administration have become, as John Kiriakou said, a matter of "national debate."

Your government is mandated by the Constitution, by international law and by basic human decency to vigorously defend our nation without resorting to torture or illegally invading sovereign nations or hammering vs. balls. Our government is supposed to be populated with smart and very serious people, yet we're expected to believe that they can't figure out how to prevent a terrorist attack without employing the villainous tactics of the Gestapo, the Spanish Inquisition or the North Vietnamese? Sorry, no. Again.

When they say they can't do without torture -- as the Bush Republicans have since 9/11 -- they're absolutely lying. What's worse is that if they can't come up with anything better than torture, they're lazy, incompetent and unimaginative. Even worse: they're sadistic and criminally insane.

But they know they can get away with this ongoing abuse of executive power because their supporters are the sort of redneck dittoheads who think it's somehow faggy to pursue our enemies within the bounds of American dignity and restraint.

To wit, one of Bryan Preston's commenters believes that anyone who opposes torture should "grow a pair." Tell me, anonymous "bones47" commenter who hides behind a pseudonym, which is ballsier: standing up for the rule of law and the Constitution in the face of danger or allowing irrational fear to abrogate everything that sets us apart from our enemies?

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Bob Cesca's Goddamn Awesome Blog! Go!
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Comments

[janvoght]

my question is simply, if we do not adhere to the geneva convention with POWS that we have in our custody, what presidence does that set for our soldiers etc., who find themselves in that same position? are we not opening the door to inhumane efforts of obtaining information that would help their cause? we started this war in the middle east. what sort of country starts a war, mismanages it big time, and then announces to it's people that we will be involved indefinitely, and at a cost that the country cannot possibly sustain?

[darker]

Never mind that pussy-wussy Jesus.

What would Hitler do?

[LightningJoe]

Either you maintain standards of humane behavior, or you don't. Humane behavior eschews putting another human through pain or damage except to defend oneself against imminent damage by someone else. If damage is not imminent, then it is abstract and hypothetical, and cannot justify damaging another person.

Once you start justifying damage to another person by citing hypotheticals (for instance that a certain defined class of people "wish us harm"), there is no limit on the practice of justification, and no limit on the class of damage that can be justified. It's all or nothing. That we can even talk about the types and shades of torture, in terms of what is "justified" and what's not, shows how lost we are.

What's utterly amazing to me is the great overlap in percentages of people professing Christian beliefs, and those saying that it's okay to apply torture to people who aren't even allowed to challenge their detention in a court of law, much less get a fair trial. A lot of American citizens must hold both of these beliefs at once.

The only responsible and accountable way to approach these questions is to imagine that you yourself are the one being detained and tortured, and ask yourself what protections and legal process you would want. If your answer is different than the one you think is good enough for other people -- ANY other people -- then you aren't a Christian, plain and simple. And if you can convince yourself that "WOT" prisoners are being treated fairly and humanely, then you are lost.

The America I believe in is better than the America I see before my eyes today. Remember after 9/11, when people briefly -- before rabid attack mode hit us -- asked "Why do they hate us?"

THAT'S why.

[MrCoffeeCup]

Bob: What's you point??? If the CIA and the Military are doing this then where did they learn these techniques?

Let's just look at the facts man! Just the facts as Sergeant Friday used to say! Oh sh-t does that date my BW TV days.

George Tennant serves as Director of the CIA for 5+ years under the KERNAL KLINTON REGIME! "CIA DIRECTOR brings new ways of interrorgation to the military". Then that would make Bill Klinton responsible for these despicable acts! It was "his" liberal democrats who developed these senseless acts of degradation then? Hmmmmm......Very interesting...aka Laugh-in 1970's It's George's fault(Tennet) It's Bill fault and George's fault or is it Jane's fault in Vietnam? Ask the Republican candidate Mr. John McCain how he was treated! John would you have preferred water boarding or the treatment you received? John--"Wat­erboarding would have at least given me a partial shower for a change."

[thinklib]

This grows tiresome.

Admit it: if we had a Democrat in office, none of this would be an issue.

Torture, in one form or another, isn't going away. It's done by every country in the world. Always has been, always will be.

We just have to hope that the US exercises the most restraint, which I believe is true.

Go ahead, call me names.

This is what I believe.

[Josey2006]

It never ceases to amaze me the briefness of the attention span of the average channel-flipping dittohead. They almost always fade out of these debates a day or so into them. Always after blasting everyone with their drive-by comments parroting their favorite right wing, drug-addled pundit.

Always the same rhetoric. Attacks accusing folks of being liberals, quaint reminiscing about Clinton and foibles, arguments that torture has "saved lives", the usual bloviations.

I guess the dumbing down of the Republican Party is both thorough and complete.

[splashy]

It's all about fear, and the response to it. Just like the gun debate.

REAL security comes from the goodwill generated in others, not fear. If they like you and think you are decent, then they are more likely to not want to hurt you.

These folks are mentally ill, as far as I can see.

[deminmo]

Is it not in the Geneva Convention that torture
is not allowed? Is it not in the field books of
most of the arm services that it is not allowed?

But is it not correct that President Bush now
has the power to make laws apply, or not?

[HartlessBeest]

Any form of torture is outrageous and totally unacceptable. When this administration has the gall to deny this, notwithstanding the evidence provided, and the many denials that it ever occurred, it demonstrates the pure EVIL that has permeated this country..

Those irresponsible Republican and Democrat CRACKHEADS in Washington have done a superb job by putting this country in the deplorable situation it now finds itself. It is time for the people of the U.S. to take whatever course of action necessary to rid the country of the SCUMBALL WARMONGERING LIARS responsible for the needless loss of thousands upon thousands of innocent lives.

Remember Nuremberg? War Crimes Against Humanity?

Rope in these Monsters and Let The Trails Begin………………….

[TellingTruth2Kooks]

Well, I just read this Sophmoronic diatribe, and I am glad that we as a Society don't have to rely on people like this for our security. Everybody wants to get all bent out of shape over splashing water in a Criminal's face, to get him to reveal whatever other criminals in his organization are up too, and You People think that this is a Bad Thing?
And why is everybody so upset that other nations are jealous of us, and criticize us publicly. Since when have we really cared what others have thought of us, considering that they Never had anything good to say about us, regardless of who was in the White House?
Is life looking Pretty Good from the Cheap Seats?

[BritPatJax]

Supposing that all those we would torture, having been rounded up by the process of 'Bounty Hunting' in the Middle East and beyond, were even guilty of anything? And I personally would doubt that having seen first hand how American Justice works? OJ. Supreme Court Voting. DNA results and release after a decade of incarceration? We can NEVER justify what we 'called' the Japanese for and hold our heads high. Finally, when we bleat about it all being worth it to save another attack. How about that we stop sanctioning the brutality of the Israeli's in their illegal occupation of Palestinian territories? That might go a long way to lessening the likelihood of an attack much more than brutalizing even more Arabs every day.

[Bob Egan]

The "International Criminal Court" has 105 members! Included in that membership are
Canada, Mexico, most of Central America, all of South America (Including Venezuela),
almost all of Europe, Australia, Japan, and South Korea.

Conspicuous by their absence are the United States and Israel!

The work of the International Criminal Court has been praised by most of the world including the United States.

If your wondering why we won’t join, ask your ELECTED REPRESENTATIVE and be ready for some really high-powered evasion!!

[Bob Egan]

Investigate, indite, imprison and impeach whenever possible!

Anything less than a complete follow through is going to drag us further into this mire of corruption!

[Bob Egan]

We had a President named George that did not believe in torture. That was George Washington. At the time of the Revolutionary war, our freedom fighters and founders were considered "terrorists".

The British Army, was, at that time considered to be the moat powerful, best trained, best equipped and best disciplined army in the world!

We, on the other hand, were a rag tagged bunch of farmers and otherwise untrained fighters!

George Washington knew that any of our people that were captured, both fighters and civilians, were going to be subjected to torture if it was thought that they may have any information!

Having integrity, intelligence, and a profound sense of decency, General Washington forbid torture!

We have certainly sunk a long way since then! The thing that disturbs me the most, other than having an administration that uses torture, and claims it’s legal, is that so many people in this country condone and openly support this practice!!

We are ignoring our commitment to the rule of law, and have become a third rate nation without honor!!

Unless we hold those responsible, in a court of law, this country will continue sinking in this corruption that has been allowed to fester and grow! This is not the work of only one administration, but the combined efforts of a badly corrupted system controlled by corporate greed with complete complicity of our ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES!

The stench from Washington has permeated the whole world! Flush the Washington D.C. toilet and replace it with clean water as many times as necessary.

[vote4kucinich]

What does it do to a person who is asked to carry out a torture procedure? When torture is used it not only can destroy the 'enemy' it can destroy the individuals who are asked to perform it.