Israel Calling Obama's Bluff

Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni:

"Israel is part of the free world and fights extremism and terrorism. Hamas is not."

"These are the days when every individual in the region and in the world has to choose a side... Israel chose its side the day it was established; the Jewish people chose its side during its thousands of years of existence."

These statements lay bare the essence of the Israeli justification for its assault on Gaza with a clarity that is rare in international diplomacy. They also spell out a politics that is the exact opposite of the politics espoused by Barack Obama.

Domestically, Obama's central argument is that the culture wars of the last few decades have created political bankruptcy and a multitude of urgent crises, but also an opportunity to create new common ground if we rise to the occasion with hope, vision, and leadership. His international politics are basically his domestic politics writ large, as he explained to a gazillion people who flocked to hear him in Berlin just months ago.

Dividing the planet into a "free world" and an "extremist and terrorist world," according to ancient fault lines that are rooted in ethnicity and religion, is the exact antithesis everything Obama has been talking about.

He is not even in office yet and already Israel is calling his bluff.

Comments

[redlinemetro]

Funny, during crunch-time US always look for a supportive Israel to help fight the good fight on our behalf because you know Israel means business. It's easy for our country to look at these wars and misunderstand. These are holy, religious wars not strategic land grabs. America is faithfully bankrupt. The only religious wars we fight are against homosexuals and abortion clinics. Together we profess publicly that we will have zero tolerance for terrorist but only Israel walks that walk.

[JimR]

America is not faithfully bankrupt. America doesn't let any one religion dictate it's policy.

Israel has been known to kill innocent women and children in its pursuit of "zero tolerance" for terrorists. Human Rights Watch accused Israel of war crimes in its pursuit of terrorists into Lebanon.

[redlinemetro]

You are so right. Far right in fact. Let's be American about this and deny any back room activity with terrorist group that can further the U.S. agenda. Please inform me where you got those rose-colored glasses you look at our country with.

[Michale32086]

@wdw505

}}}}
ok.......d­on't start a fight you can't finish .........j­ust a suggestion
{{{{

I have always been partial to the saying...

"If you grab the tiger by the tail, you better have a plan for dealing with it's teeth."

Michale...­..

[chaos4700]

Considering your strategy is to run away from the tiger and shout back trite and factually bankrupt comments by constantly starting new threads and cherry picking all of the bits out of peoples posts that show you to be wrong? You're a fine one to give a lecture on courage, intellectual, moral or otherwise.

[Michale32086]

Thank you for your concession that you have no logical or rational counter to my argument and must, therefore, resort to immature personal attacks.

Your concession of my superiority is appreciated, albeit irrelevant­..

Michale...­..

[wdw505]

nice one

[KillTheMessenger]

And the Best Strawman of the Day award goes to...

[Michale32086]

.....The guys who keep saying that Gaza is sooo crowded Hamas HAS to put their launchers in civilian areas.... :D

No, that's not really fair.. SurrealPumpkin seems to have a good head on his shoulders. He's probably just not aware how open Gaza really is.... :D

Michale...­..

[chaos4700]

Gee, I'm glad my taxpayer money pays the benefits for you to sit around and spout nonsense on blogs when you could be earning your keep.

[Michale32086]

@SurrealPumpkin

A picture is worth a thousand words...

I invite you to take a tour of Gaza..

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=31.573526,34.517326&spn=0.020585,0.04549&t=h&z=15

This depicts the north central Gaza/Israel border.

Take a look around. What you will see are wide open areas that would actually INCREASE the range of Hamas missiles.

Get that??

If Hamas actually placed their launchers AWAY from crowded civilian areas, their missiles WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE!!!

Of course, Hamas would still be committing terrorism against Israel.. For a short time, anyways.. :)

But doing this would virtually ELIMINATE innocent civilian Palestinian casualties­...

So, you have to ask yourself..

WHY is HAMAS placing military hardware inside civilian areas??

Michale...­..

[Michale32086]

@SurrealPumpkin

{{{
It's 60 years to late for the illegal occupier of Palestinian land argument. What can be done about the situation now.
}}}

On this, we agree completely­....

Michale...­..

[Michale32086]

@who38

}}}}
How do you know where the weapons are stashed? Thought so.
{{{{

Because it's been reported in Palestinian Press

""Residents of a Gaza town complained this week after Hamas forces constructing a weapons storage facility under the local schoolhouse severed a water main.

The Ramallah-based Palestine Press news agency reported that Hamas hoped to use the school to shield some of their heavy US and Iranian-made weapons from Israeli raids and air strikes...­.""

Michale...­..

[Michale32086]

@baffy

}}}}}
Since the Israelis regularly attack Gaza and kill "suspects" as well as ordinary civilians the Gazans are, therefore, constantly under threat and are entitled to "proportionate and incremental steps in self defense". I assume such laws apply equally to both sides or were they specifically written for Israel?
{{{{

They do..

And, if HAMAS would limit it's targets to legitimate military targets, as Israel does, then you would not hear a peep from me...

Michale...­..

[baffy]

Right, Israel does not kill civilians - only 100 in the last 9 days.

[Michale32086]

And over 400 security forces/com­batants/te­rrorists..

It's a shame that the civilians were caught up in it.. But, as I have clearly proven beyond any doubt, the blame for that is with HAMAS...

But, I never claimed that Israel doesn't KILL civilians.­. I merely claim that Israel doesn't TARGET civilians.

It's an important distinction that you seem unable (or unwilling) to make..

Michale...­..

[wdw505]

not bad for a mini-war..­..........­how many hamas killed?

[wdw505]

never take a rock to a gun fight.....­....
never take a bottle rocket to a tank fight.....­....just a suggestion

[chaos4700]

How's this for a suggestion -- don't commit ethnic cleansing in the 21st century.

[wdw505]

ok.......d­on't start a fight you can't finish .........j­ust a suggestion

if there were any cleansing the death total would be higher than it is

[SpoonieLuv]

Zippy can say whatever she wants, what matters is what those of us in the United States think. I think it's time that we start to assign some requirements for Israel in order for her to remain on our payroll. Think of it as a kind of foreign policy welfare reform ;)

See, this crisis is being fought by Hamas, a terrorist group and an abject affront to the morality of most people; and Israel, a country that would not be able to do what it's currently doing without American weapons. While shooting rockets into another country is unacceptable, Israel's response is even more so. Hundreds have been killed so far by the IDF. I don't want to reduce this to a numbers game, but there's no way that anyone can possibly legitimate the Isreali response.

In short, we need to keep this dog on a tighter leash. What Israel is doing is not reflective of American values, yet they carry out their campaign thanks to American dollars and weapons.

[AlwaysFairDem]

Well...wha­t he needs to do is show them he means business. Murder is not acceptable even if you are in the pocket of the US.

[Michale32086]

Murder is not an issue here...

However, if you DO want to apply that civilian charge in a military environment, the facts clearly show that Hamas is much closer to committing murder than the Israelis are.

Against Israelis *AND* against their own citizens.

Or do you approve of using old people, women and children as human shields??

Michale...­..

[chaos4700]

I didn't realize living in a city constituted "using human shields." I suppose your idea of making this a fair fight would be to drive the Palestinians out into the desert.

[whySoSerious]

the pocket thing....i­ts the other way around.

[karela]

It wouldn't be wise of Israel to try to force that old, "You're either for us or against us" stuff.

[who38]

They don't need to. Every US politician is elbowing in line to support Israel. LA's mayor will make a statement this AM. Never mind that more people die from gang violence in LA in a month than in year's rocket fire aimed at Israelis. But then, Jewish groups never call press conferences re/ those gang killings either.

[Michale32086]

@QnATL

{{{{
Typical Isreal can do no wrong mentality. Forget then murdering innocent women and children, forget the attrocities they're commiting in Gaza and have committed over the years, they're perfect, they can do no wrong.
{{{{

Actually, it's Hamas who is committing the atrocities in Gaza.

They are placing military hardware in crowded civilian areas and putting weapons storage areas in school houses. This is documented by Palestinian Press..

These actions are in gross violation of the ICC, the Geneva Conventions and the rules of warfare.

It also might interest you to know that, under the ROME STATUTE of the International Criminal Court, Israel is fully justified in it's actions, legally, morally and ethically.

These ARE the facts..

Michale...­..

[baffy]

Israel has defied all but one UN resolutions and has also ignored the International Criminal Court's ruling on the "Wall" as illegal. As always, Israel chooses what to accept or reject and then blames everyone else for not obeying the law. The Israeli Supreme Court is complicit in all of this.
Just to get back to basics, Israel is the illegal occupier of Palestinian land. Even you with your blinkered vision cannot deny this. 40 years of globally recognized illegal, brutal and oppressive acts against the Palestinians. Shame on you for unequivocally supporting such a lawless regime. Don't forget that neither Hamas nor Hezbolla existed before it became apparent that Israel would continue indefinitely with the occupation. Who are the bad guys here?

[Michale32086]

Sorry, but you are wrong..

The International Criminal Court clearly sides with Israel in this matter.

"Our thumb is on the scale in favour of the defender", such that the magnitude of the response may exceed the degree of danger created by the initial attack"

" the personal interests of the aggressor are significantly diminished due to the aggressor"s culpability in launching the attack."
ROME STATUTE, International Criminal Court

As long as the threat is present, Israel is permitted to take proportionate AND INCREMENTAL steps in self-defense.

Proportionate is defined as steps necessary to eliminate the threat.

These are the facts..

Michale...­.

[SurrealPumpkin]

It's 60 years to late for the illegal occupier of Palestinian land argument. What can be done about the situation now.

[wdw505]

i agree

[chaos4700]

Yeah. Keep justifying this genocidal attack, and then we'll see who comes to the US' defense the next time we suffer a 9/11 attack. People like you are a detriment to national security.

[Michale32086]

Hamas is placing their military hardware and weapons storage areas in crowded civilian areas and in schools. This is DOCUMENTED by Palestinian news sources.. I am sure I don't have to point out to you that such actions by HAMAS are in CLEAR violation of the ICC, the Geneva Conventions and the rules of warfare.

Even with these GROSS and CONTINUING violations, Israel still goes out of it's way to try to avoid innocent casualties. Israel takes many steps to notify targets of impending attacks, **EVEN AT THE RISK TO THEIR OWN FORCES**..­.

Do these sound like the actions of a country bent on genocide??

Michale...­..

[harriscrl3]

I want to know seriously do people believe that Hamas is NOT a terrorist organization? Or that Hamas can be reasoned with?

I believe that Isarel is not calling Obama bluff rather they are forcing Obama's hand. I find it curious that Isarel have been getting missles from Hamas for a while now and they didnt act in the past but chose to act NOW. I suspect part of the reason is to force Obama to deal with the Palestinia­n/Israreli issue right away and not put it off. Because they were concern that the economy would consume Obama and he would put some of these things on the backburner. They want the issue addressed now. I also believe sadly that Israel thinks the only way to peace is through war. Peace like that imo is always fragile and doesnt last. But again I just dont see how you negotiate with someone who doesnt think you have the right to exist.

I hope Obama's approach to this is fair. I dont want someone who is on Palestine side because they are wrong and I also dont want someone who gives Isarel a blank check. But the thing too is can we really tell Isarel what to do without looking and sounding hypocritical. We invaded Iraq they were not sending Missles our way and we have yet to apologize and admit that we were wrong and we are telling Isarel not to fight back when missles is coming there way.
Carol

[who38]

I think that it will be very difficult to reason with Hammas, almost as difficult as trying to reason with Israel. I don't think that they are calling Obama's bluff as much as trying to show that a political party other than Likud can be tough. The truth is both sides are wrong. I think that the deal should be that Gaza gets electricity, water, and gas 24/7. If they don't, rockets can be fired. An international police force should control the open bordersm the air and sea space to ensure that arms will not enter Gaza.

[hortonhearsawho2]

How come are War, make that plural, lasts longer then those in this volatile region. Just wondering.

[Sebastian333]

Cant understand the "bluff", neither. If now Israel erases the intellectual and strategic core of hamas/hizbollah once and for all(lets do some positive thinking), that would mean that a big turbulence creating problem would be solved, which makes up a much better base for Obamas idealistic aspirations.

Obama will be an integral politician, meaning that he will be trans partisan. The energiers he evoked, mainly idealist green leftist and civilright like ones, have to be COMBINED with realism(re­alsim+idea­lism=integ­ralism!)

I do believe that extremism reproduces structurally, that means that if the structure doesnt change, the whole situation will always stay the same. But still, this war DOES CHANGE the situation. At least for some time, open space we/Obama could use for action. The israelis, in the end, are too messed up and to much "in" there situation to see certain elements, lets not not talk about palestine in this regard, My prayers are with the innocent who these days again have to suffer the fundamental bankrupcy of soul of mens leaders.

[octo]

" If now Israel erases the intellectual and strategic core of hamas/hizbollah once and for all...."

A guerilla army is a ground-up, organic, embedded force. Its not about individual personalities. Its not top-down like a conventional state army. New leaders arise, they must, there are always leaders in society. You must change the conditions and the motives.

[eden4barack08]

"You must change the conditions and the motives."

Precisely, or it's all useless!