Outrage: An Interview with Director Kirby Dick

Florida Governor Charlie Crist. Former New York Mayor Ed Koch. California Congressman David Dreier. Former Chairman of the Republican National Committee Ken Mehlman. Ex-Idaho Senator Larry Craig. Ex-Louisiana Congressman Jim McCrery. All play starring roles in Outrage, the incendiary new documentary from Academy Award-nominated director Kirby Dick.

The film's thesis: The American political system is home to a large number of closeted homosexual lawmakers. Most are Republican. Nearly all of them oppose equal rights measures for gays because they want to conceal their own sexual orientation. In the words of openly gay congressman Barney Frank: "There is a right to privacy, but there is no right to hypocrisy."

Outrage digs deep, and what's more, it names names. Now playing in theaters, it is a timely, unsettling exposè that is sure to generate a good bit of controversy.

 

 

Are you gay?

Kirby Dick: What right do you have to ask the question?! Just kidding--I'm straight.



So what brought you to make this film?

I was in Washington, D.C. in August 2006 promoting my last film, This Film Is Not Yet Rated, which is about censorship in the MPAA film rating system. While I was there, I heard numerous stories that many high profile politicians were closeted and that a number of them were protecting their closet by voting anti-gay. I was equally surprised to learn that there was very little coverage of this hypocrisy in the mainstream media, and decided almost immediately to make a film on the subject. 



Your film presents Washington as a place that is home to many high-powered, closeted gay people.

It comes as a surprise to many viewers, but DC is actually a very gay town, and a very high percentage of the staffers who work on Capitol Hill are gay. Many are closeted to one degree or another, but most are out. What also comes as a great surprise is that there are nearly as many gay Republicans in DC as gay Democrats.

Do you feel it's morally justifiable to out closeted politicians who vote against gay rights?

My film isn't about outing closeted gay people; my film is about reporting on the hypocrisy of closeted politicians whose anti-gay actions harm millions of LGBT Americans. Not only do I feel it is justifiable to report on this hypocrisy, but I also feel it is the responsibility of journalists and documentary filmmakers to do so.



And if you do out closeted politicians, what about other folks in the public sphere? Actors? Television personalities? Journalists? Pundits? When is it not okay to out someone?

My film focuses primarily on hypocrisy of politicians who are entrusted to uphold the rights of all citizens equally. Closeted gays and lesbians in the other professions you mention have not been elected to enact laws that affect the entire citizenry, and they are not usually acting hypocritically. The film does report on one journalist, Shepard Smith, who was first reported on by Kevin Naff of the Washington Blade. Shepard Smith works for Fox News, which has been a major factor in the rise of anti-gay hysteria in this country over the past two decades. As one of the most prominent people in Fox News---according to the New York Times, Smith makes 7 to 8 million dollars per year---his complicity with the network's homophobic agenda rises to a level of hypocrisy that I felt was worthy of reporting.

Barney Frank has a pretty compelling line in the film: "There is a right to privacy, but there is no right to hypocrisy." Is this the central message of your film, more or less?

One of the central messages. The other message is that the closet contorts the American political system. Closeted politicians who would generally vote pro-gay instead vote anti-gay to protect the closet because they are afraid their constituency might view a pro-gay vote as an indication that they are gay. Jim McGreevey candidly admitted that he had made just this calculation when I spoke with him.



Was it difficult to get people to talk on camera? And if so, how did you convince them? Dina Matos McGreevey must have been difficult to persuade, no?

It did take a great deal of effort to get many of the interview subjects to speak on camera. In the end, however, I thought we wound up with a very impressive selection of people who were very familiar with the corridors of power. This is primarily due to the incredible efforts of my producer, Amy Ziering, who was especially skilled in getting people to agree to appear in what some might perceive as a controversial film. Dina Matos McGreevey stepped forward because she felt it was important that the spouses in situations like hers be given a voice to let the public know that the deception of closeted politicians has a very personal cost to those around them.

Has there been any backlash? Did you meet a lot of resistance while making it? Any weird threats? Warrant-less wiretaps? Any windowless vans trailing you around town? Visits from the IRS?

I was surprised by the level of fear expressed by many of the sources I spoke with. Many of these people were very supportive of the film but chose not to go on the record because they were afraid of repercussions. I don't know if their fear is warranted, but that fear is definitely out there.

The mainstream media has been loath to address many of the issues raised in Outrage. Why?

The mainstream media have been loath to address these issues, but generally it's not because the reporters themselves don't want to cover them. Instead, this reluctance comes from people above the reporters. Many news outlets are afraid to discuss issues involving gay sexuality because their readership is straight and they think coverage of gay sexuality may turn off these readers. I also think that in some situations these outlets, which are often owned by large media conglomerates that do a great deal of business on Capitol Hill, do not want to run a story that would antagonize powerful members of Congress. Finally, some straight reporters may feel they are doing the right thing by not outing even if it means not reporting on hypocrisy. However, the gay press has been reporting on these issues for years and and calling on the mainstream media to do so as well.

For years the Republican party has used gay rights issues as a wedge and a way of currying favor with the Religious Right. Do you get the sense that the Republicans might slowly be changing their tune on this issue? The party seems to be in flux. Is it becoming more politically viable for them to do so?

There is a growing debate within the Republican party over whether or not this is the best strategy. One of the best things that could happen for the gay rights movement would be for a significant, out gay or lesbian Republican (or Democratic) candidate to contend for the presidential nomination. I am hopeful that we will see this happen within the next decade.

It's been a big year for gay rights in American cinema. Milk was big success. Hugh Jackman hosted the Oscars. (Just kidding---I think.) Is gay rights the central, defining human rights issue in American life at this time?

Absolutely. I think there should be zero tolerance for any attempt to delay 100% human and civil rights for all American citizens. And I think it's time that Obama fulfills the promises he made during the campaign to end the Don't Ask Don't Tell policy, overturn the Defense of Marriage Act, and remove the HIV travel ban. 



Did you request interviews with guys like Governor Crist or Ed Koch? Any response from their camps as the film makes its way into theaters?

For most of the politicians I reported on in my film, I included their responses to the question as to whether they are gay or straight. Koch did tell the NY Post that he was "outraged" by Outrage and I certainly appreciate the fact that he mentioned the title of my film twice in his response.

Crist, Koch, Craig: Which one is most likely to come out of the closet by 2012? Handicap it.

I hope they all come out. Every time a closeted politician comes out it advances the cause of gay rights tremendously.

Any surprises as you made the film? Any, um, Deep Throats?

To me the greatest surprise is how stunned audiences are by the information in this film. It shows how little mainstream media coverage the subject has received.

Is Karl Rove gay? Care to set the record straight?

There are rumors out there that he is gay but I came across no credible information that would substantiate those rumors. His stepfather, who raised Rove until he was a teenager and whom Rove refers to as his father, was gay (he has since passed away).

Sort of surprised that no mention was made of Jeff Gannon. A gay male prostitute posing as a journalist who gets credentialed for White House press briefings and then pitches softballs to George W. Bush. How the hell does that happen?

My film is about the hypocrisy of powerful closeted politicians. While the Gannon story is related, he is neither powerful nor closeted (although since the scandal he has become less forthcoming about his sexual orientation).

Watching the film, one of the prevailing sentiments is a profound sadness. Charlie Crist in particular is pretty heartbreaking to watch. He seems like a very decent guy, and yet his voting record on gay rights issues is miserable.

He may be a very decent guy. And I think he believes that gays and lesbians should have full civil rights. However, this makes his public anti-gay positions all the more reprehensible because they are part of a purely political calculation to protect the closet.

Jim Kolbe and Jim McGreevey were pretty powerful examples of formerly closeted pols who now live much healthier existences. You think they might inspire other politicians to come forward? Or is that just wishful thinking?

I hope so. I think one of the reasons they were so forthcoming is that they wanted people going into politics to realize the incredible personal cost of living in the closet. In fact, I was just recently contacted by a gay man who had decided not to run for political office because he didn't think he could win as an out candidate. But after seeing my film, he is seriously reconsidering that decision.

Do you get the sense that we are approaching the tipping point with this stuff?

I hope so. The closet has contorted the American political process for far too long, and I hope my film will help contribute to the demise of the closet in American politics. Because the mainstream media have been reluctant to cover this issue, people entering politics have often chosen to stay in the closet because they feel they can get away with this deception. Once the film is out and the public becomes more aware of this issue, I hope many more politicians will realize the right thing to do, both personally and politically, is to be open about their sexual orientation, and this goes for both Democrats and Republicans.



What's next for you?

Ripping open another "closet" (one unrelated to gay issues). I can't say anything more about it because I don't want the people and institutions I'm looking into to know I'm coming their way.

Sounds good. And best of luck with it. Many thanks for your time.

My pleasure. Thank you.

 
 

This interview first appeared at TheNervousBreakdown.com.

Brad Listi can be found at www.bradlisti.com.

 

 

Follow Brad Listi on Twitter: www.twitter.com/bradlisti

Comments

[Fjlisti]

Very interesting subject and well done interview.

[Joshua Johanson]

Just because they are gay doesn't mean they have to support all the bills on gay rights. Do seniors have to support everything AARP does? Do blacks have to support everything the NAACP does? Elton John doesn't support same-sex marriage. Where is the outrage against Elton John? Lots of people are against same-sex marriage. Why are these senators being attacked because of their sexual orientation? Isn't that discriminating them based on their sexual orientation?

Of course they're going to be closeted. Society puts gays in boxes as tells them how they're supposed to act. Those who rebel are labeled as being untrue to themselves. Many gay people feel the gay community does not represent their values, and so they choose to distance themselves from them.

I don't condone any type of affair, whether gay or straight, and I don't think they should cover it up. However, just because they are gay doesn't mean they cheat on their wives. Do you have to reveal all of your attractions when you are in public office? Do straight politicians who are faithful to their wives have to admit that sometimes they find younger, prettier women more attractive than their wives.

Rather than attacking every gay who doesn't conform to the values of the gay community, maybe it is the gay community that should change and recognize that gay people come in all varieties and political beliefs. And yes, even some gay people believe children should have both a father and mother.

[Rrhain]

What makes you think there isn't outrage against Elton John?

And Elton John isn't doing what he's doing in an attempt to hide himself.

So no, they don't have to support equality for gay people, but they are going to have to explain why they think they are undeserving of full equality so that their constituents can know that their representative thinks of himself as deserving of only less-than-equal citizenship.

[JoeSchmuk]

'Society puts gays in boxes' - No, that's the point. These people as the lawmakers are putting themselves in boxes, no to mention all the other people they are trying to lock in there at the same time!

'just because they are gay doesn't mean they cheat on their wives' - !!!!!!!!?????????!!!!!!! 'Scuse me, my mind is boggling. Love to hear what your take on relationship is.

[gorgol]

I disagreed with his view on Jeff Gannon....the story isn't "if" Jeff Gannon is "gay", the story is who was Jeff Gannon "visiting" at all hours, at the White House....its another story that everyone knows..but no one talks about....there is only one person Jeff Gannon could have been visiting.

[kps888]

I don't know...who was Gannon visiting?

[awckid3]

Thank you Mr. Listi.

[thnk4selfagain]

Great interview. I enjoyed Mr. Dick's "This Film Is Not Yet Rated" with its mission to expose the of the MPAA Ratings Board, their biases, ineffectiveness and artbitrariness Audacious fun and right on target. This new doc sounds interesting.

[JoeSchmuk]

You go girl. The closet is no place for Public Office.

[Seldon]

I haven't seen the movie but it sounds interesting.

I have always felt that anyone who launches a personal crusade against a particular "sin", typically has a very personal reason for being obsessed.

A preacher who spends every breath bashing gays -> probabaly gay
Politician bangs on about "family values" -> probably cheats on their spouse
someone prattles on about abstinence ->
A particular news organisation is obsessed with being fair or balanced -> political hacks who cherry pick video footage
In short, the more you have to say something, the less likely it is to be true

[David Ehrenstein]

"Right to Privacy"? In Washington D.C.? Gimme a break!

[soxy]

Last I knew Shepard Smith lives and works in NYC not DC. The others may indeed be fair game but I'm not too sure about poor inoffensive out of office Ed Koch(another New Yorker) either.

[soxy]

Violating someone's right to privacy because you are arrogant enough to believe that you alone should define hypocrisy is an outrage. To do so, not because you can identify any offense he has given personally, but because you despise the place where he makes his living is obscene. It is as hateful as the homophobia all decent people condemn.

[luzcannon]

You're joking, right? PUBLIC servant. Public SERVANT. These closet-cases are making LAWS that take away my rights for doing excatly what they're doing. EVERY gay person, and every thinking straight person, and every dictionary owner, defines this as hypocrisy .
That just happens to happen in D.C. You want to be in D. C.? As far as I'm concerned everthing you do, 24-7, should be a matter of public record as long as you hold public office. We have the technology.

[soxy]

I'm too subtle for you ideologues. I was defending only one man, Shepard Smith. My guess is you feel it's OK to attack viserally anyone who doesn't toe what you see as the line. Politicians make laws that DO effect us all. That equals fair game, reporting on them, not so much.

[ihavenobias]

Great interview! This is a nice compliment to the video interview from Friday by fellow HuffPo blogger and host of The Young Turks Cenk Uygur:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9CiXoxccmc

[Dubnacious]

Ed Koch is STILL closeted? That is so crazy!

[BobSF94117]

No comments? That's uh... outrageous

[Brad Listi - Huffpost Blogger]

The interview just posted a few minutes ago, Bob. Hopefully we'll hear from people.

Thanks for tuning in....

[Andrew Reiser]

Excellent interview Mr. Listi. Thank you for posting that excellent interview. Keep it up!