Torture Advocates will Set the Military Back for Generations

Know what these photos are?

These are Iraqi troops surrendering by the thousand to U.S. forces during the first Gulf War in 1991. These drafted Iraqi fighters chose to turn themselves over to Americans in droves because they knew they'd be treated better by U.S. troops than by their own government. They had faith in us that we wouldn't execute them, that we'd feed them and give them water, and that we'd provide them with shelter. To them, facing capture was a much better option than either retreating back to the care of Saddam and his sadistic sons or of fighting to the death.

This worked out well, because it meant that we, as Americans, wouldn't have to face a determined, cornered enemy that could've drawn out the war and inflicted unnecessary casualties on our side. It was seen as a great victory.

Know what this is?

This is a shot of German troops surrendering to Americans during World War Two. At the end of that war, German soldiers were so desperate to surrender to the Americans or the British that they actually fought to break out of areas on the Eastern Front just so they wouldn't have to surrender to the Russians. They knew that inhumane treatment, a long train ride to Siberia, and a likely miserable death awaited them if they didn't make it.

This also worked out well for us, because it meant that we, as Americans, had a much easier time in Germany than the Russians did. The Russians--battling men who were literally fighting for their lives during the push to Berlin--suffered 80,000 troops killed. On the Western Front, however, U.S. forces never faced that level of resistance.

Once upon a time, America was known around the world for its powerful, benevolent nature when handling captured enemy fighters. Even our adversaries knew they could hoist the white flag and expect to be treated humanely. In turn, this made them more likely to give up sooner. And it not only kept American soldiers out of countless bloody fights, but it made victory and success all that much easier for our troops.

For years, rank and file soldiers and insurgents around the world viewed surrender to the Americans as a reasonable option when finding themselves outgunned.

And then we went and did this:

Now, our opponents won't feel secure in surrendering to U.S. forces. In fact, I wouldn't expect to see images like those of the surrendering soldiers above for decades. It's just not going to happen anymore. If a hot war breaks out in Iran, North Korea, Pakistan, or anywhere else, we can expect to face an enemy that simply won't accept surrender. No Taliban fighter, no starving North Korean soldier in his right mind will surrender willingly if he thinks he's going to be tortured or beaten to death. Instead, he'll prefer a fight to the death, even as he becomes cornered. And this will get Americans killed.

This is what Bush administration torture policies have wrought. We no longer hold the moral high ground. We borrowed against it in an effort to get a few false confessions from Khalid Sheikh Mohamed, Abu Zubaydah, and others. And the next time we face an organized fighting force in the field, the cost of doing so will become readily apparent.

Not only does torture not work, but it directly endangers our troops fighting now.

Also available at VetVoice

Comments

[GraceNeeded]

Not only is torture wrong, degrading of our American reputation, and embarrassing to our military, it is illegal according to our laws, the Geneva Convention and international agreements. If our leaders are NOT held accountable to the laws they vowed to defend and uphold, why should anyone inside or outside the U.S. respect our laws. As President Obama has stated, "We are a country of laws". Those in leadership are NOT above these laws and must be held accountable or our whole system of law, legal system, criminal justice, and government is breaking down. Approximately 2,550 years ago , a leader in Athens, Greece named Solon was asked what made an orderly and well constituted state? He replied, according to Will Durant'sThe Life of Greece, "When the people obey the rulers, and the rulers obey the laws." WE must insist our rulers obey the laws or what credibility does our Constitution, government and laws have? I am sorry former Vice President Cheney, there can be no exceptions. President Ford should never have pardoned Nixon, as Cheney seemed pleased by in his interview with Jim Lehrer. It caused a whole generation to lose faith in their government and we are just NOW regaining hope and trust once again. PLEASE insist that the powers that be investigate this grievous directive on 'enhanced forms of interrogation' and that our Attorney General Holder follow-up to call those involved to be accountable or we risk losing another whole generation for 30 years!

[edwcorey]

Character is defined by what you do when no one's watching. When no one's watching, the U.S. is as murderous as anyone on the planet, as exemplified by the School of the Americas, where right-wing death-squad leaders were taught how to liquidate "leftists" and union organizers in South America (http://www.soaw.org/). This, of course, helped the right-wing descendants of Spanish, Portuguese and Germans crush the mostly indigenous, plus descendants of slaves, populations of these countries and prevent them from taking any power. Note how, in the wake of U.S. incursions into countries like the Philippines, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Korea, right-wing despots arose to do the bidding of America. Particularly if you are brown or black, you might even have the privilege of the U.S. military doing the bloody, torturous honors to you:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/02/25/080225fa_fact_kramer

[JanP]

Are you serious? What happens to an american who surrenders to al Qaeda or the Taliban? Have there been prisoner exchanges?

How about left-wing depots like Stalin, Mao, pol Pot and Castro?

[PigLipstick]

Two weeks ago, Baltasar Garzón, the Spanish judge who indicted the sadistic dictator of Chile, Augusto Pinochet, many years ago in Spain and did it successfully, began a criminal investigation, or the preliminary steps for one, against six of the Whitehouse lawyers who were involved in the torture program. The investigating judges in Spain are very independent and have a lot of power. Friday, Judge Garzón issued a ten-page opinion, opening a formal criminal investigation—a preliminary one, but nonetheless a criminal investigation—into the torture at Guantánamo.

As a signatory to the international treaty that prohibits torture, we are bound by international law to take action against anyone who violates this treaty, and that includes the political elite in this country. The Spanish judge is essentially telling Obama to handle this mess or we will take it to the World Court. The whole story is at the following link !

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3631&updaterx=2009-04-30+18%3A53%3A43

[Wake-up]

You comparing anyone in the Bush Admin. to Pinochet?

Pinochet kidnapped and killed thousands...

That's just sick...

[jake106]

I respectfully disagree with your logic, although I share your desire for an end goal. I don't agree with torture, for the simple reason that it is wrong. I think it is a pretty black and white issue. However, I don't think that advocating the torture of terrorist fighters who represent no particular country is going to convince any real army that we are going to torture their soldiers. Simply put; the fact that we tortured terror suspects does not translate into the future possibility of torturing legitimate prisoners of war.

Additionally, of the nations you specifically mention as possible opponents in a future landwar, the propaganda those nations have been feeding their people for the last few decades has made the truth irrelevant. We could have been giving every prisoner we took his own private mansion and North Korea would still have convinced it's people that we eat their young.

The torture is wrong because it is wrong. Simple enough. It was a slippery slope argument that I never did agree with; sacrificing our moral integrity for the possible benefits of information gained through torture and interrogation. Even when we DID get information that saved lives, what good is a saved life if you kill your soul a little each time?

[Teleologicus]

Comments on topics like torture and slavery, even when made by educated and intelligent people, tend to be little more than personal expressions of emotion - or declarations, usually conspicuous,of proper moral values.

Matters, alas, are considerably more complex than such cheap grabs at public virtue usually reveal. Human slavery and torture have quite lengthy and, if not distinguished, at any event complex histories. Merely to proclaim that one is "against" them, with no historical awareness, no understanding of the human dynamics, no consideration of time, place and context etc., is seldom anything besides vainglorious self-puffery.

To announce that "torture is wrong because is it wrong" is perhaps satisfying to say but far from edifying to read.

As for the amazing claim, which I cannot believe is meant altogether seriously, that torture would NEVER be justified, not even if the results obtained could reasonably be expected to prevent the deaths of millions of defenseless people. . . I beg to be counted out of this kind of absolutist moral puritanism. It seems, indeed, to me to be little more than thoughtless and irresponsible nonsense. Others may subscribe to fiat justitia ruat caelum, but I prefer a saner and more flexible approach.

It is a great shame that contemporary issues such as torture and slavery seldom seem to serve to engage more than a handful of those emoting about them to delve deeper into the history, nature and recorded human experience with these ancient and deeply inscribed phenomena.

[jake106]

I agree that the idea that torture would NEVER be justified is a silly one;something that goes beyond an intelligent discussion and into absolutes is usually impossible to "debate".

I do stand by my original comment. Torture IS wrong, because it IS wrong. It doesn't have to be wrong because it may make soldier's from other countries afraid to surrender, that has nothing to do with why torture is wrong. That was my original point. There are already enough reasons to say that torture is wrong. It goes against the stated values of our nation, it goes against the moral values of the overwhelming majority of our nation, and it goes against the moral values of almost all of modern civilization

[ReedYoung]

quote:
As for the amazing claim, which I cannot believe is meant altogether seriously, that torture would NEVER be justified, not even if the results obtained could reasonably be expected to prevent the deaths of millions of defenseless people.
/quote

That scenario is purely hypothetical. Nothing remotely similar to it has ever occurred.

The prosecuting attorneys in the trials of Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Bybee, Bradbury, et. al. will object to statements such as yours on the grounds that all expert witnesses have testified that "enhanced interrogation" has no such potential, to obtain results that "could reasonably be expected" to be true. And the judge will uphold the objections every time.

Until then, I prescribe some common sense. A torture victim who was not willing to tell the truth before being tortured will at best, during torture, tell lies he expects the torturer to believe, so torture is useful _only_ for evoking confessions of fallacies and falsehoods:
Iraq purchased yellow cake uranium from Nigeria (disproved by the Italian tabloid that passed the faked report from an unreliable CIA source back to CIA where Cheney _ordered_ it "stovepiped," meaning approved without proper vetting procedures, to "slam dunk" status) and that Iraq was working with al Qaida. The motive for the Bush administration's torture policy was not protecting Americans, but confessions of lies -- which cost lives but diverted money to U.S. oil and mercenary companies -- to support the fiction that their previous lies about Iraq were mere "mistakes."

[LeftRight]

Did you REALLY just bring up the 24 scenario AGAIN????

Seriously, there's possibly situations in which torture MIGHT be a valid thing to do, HOWEVER, in the thousands of years that we have information on what torture actually does, we've NEVER had the 24 scenario play out!!

[ThermoChemist]

Posted elsewhere...
================

Despite continual denials by some, "enemy combatants" DO have legal status in the Geneva Conventions.

1977 Protocols to the Geneva Conventions (Protocol 1)

Article 44, Paragraph 4
4. A combatant...failing to meet the requirements set forth in the second sentence of paragraph 3 shall forfeit his right to be a prisoner of war, but he SHALL, nevertheless, BE GIVEN PROTECTIONS EQUIVALENT in all respects to those accorded TO PRISONERS OF WAR by the Third Convention and by this Protocol. This protection includes protections equivalent to those accorded to prisoners of war by the Third Convention in the case where such a person is tried and punished for any offences he has committed.

Article 45, Paragraph 1
1. A person who takes part in hostilities...shall be PRESUMED to be a prisoner of war, and therefore SHALL BE PROTECTED by the Third Convention, if he claims the status of prisoner of war, or if he appears to be entitled to such status, or if the Party on which he depends claims such status on his behalf by notification to the detaining Power or to the Protecting Power. Should ANY DOUBT arise as to whether any such person is entitled to the status of prisoner of war, HE SHALL continue to HAVE SUCH STATUS and, therefore, to BE PROTECTED by the Third Convention and this Protocol until such time as his status has been determined by a competent tribunal.

http://www.tamilnation.org/humanrights/genevaconventions/gprotocol1c.htm#6

[LeftRight]

Thank you!

[BAHR]

I really feel terrible that those suspected al-Qaida terrorist are made to suffer some discomfort, I would never call it "Torture".
Look at how American troops were tortured by our enemies in past wars! Japan did biological, chemical and medical experiments on our prisoners of war... all violations of the Geneva Convention. The Germans were no better !!!
Now look at what the "Muslim" fighters do to their prisoners... they behead them and show the video on International TV and post it to the World Wide Web.
When I was in Iraq, I didn't care if I got shot, hit by an IED or anything else... I was worried if I got captured !!!
I didn't want to be beheaded !!!
You talk about not wanting to surrender... that made me and my fellow Marines fight even harder !!!
Stop the al-Qaida terrorist, not our troops !!!

[LeftRight]

There are many better ways to stop the terrorists, whether you admit it or not, but the point being made in this post is still valid. You talk about how you and your Marines would fight harder because they were afraid of being tortured, so......

[graphicnovel]

But they are laughing at our torture, my God, they behead us, and we waterboard. They know they we are not going to kill them. We could have, but we did not. They even eat good, get medical care, ect, all on the taxpayers dime, I might add. If you want to see real torture, watch the tape of a journalists head being cut off with a dull knife. We do not torture.

[sviolette]

So you want to be lowered to that same moral level?
Because someone else does something it doesn't that you should comit the same crime.

Americans are better than that. We tried and hung people for waterboarding American prisoners of war. We have to try and prosecute all of the people that tortured anyone. It's the only humane thing to do.

[ChelseaC]

Well said.

[pjburke]

"discomfort" re. torture = Bill-O Parrot = Zero Credibility.

* 34 cases of murder-by-torture confirmed & referred to DOJ for criminal indictment.

* over 100 suspicious deaths under investigation.

* child sodomy and rape confirmed (Army film attached to Taguba Report)

* detainees burned by lit cigarettes inserted into ears.

* detainees' genitals slashed with razor blade

* naked detainee hosed down with ice water until blue, then left outside naked and froze to death

* detainees electrocuted and burned by electrical cord attached to genitals

None of these detained people were ever charged with any crime. No evidence was even collected to do so. There wasn't even a filing system for evidence (per lead prosecutor Col Vandeveld). These people were swept up by bounty-collectors who were simply trading bodies for cash... and we threw them in cages, no questions asked, for years.

[Wake-up]

I think you're confused... yes when things like this happen in war time, we investigate and prosecute.

If you're saying the Admin. ordered cigarette burns, etc. then you should probably stop seeing movies and be careful as to what you watch on TV...

Man... you just want to believe so it must be true huh??

[bayside]

The point being we lost our credability.. We have no right to lecture anyone about torture and I bet once the truth comes out we have done much worse then has been reported,to any country. We used to be the example for other countries to follow and they in turn would treat our captured soldiers with rights,now because of these dark hats that have run our country in the last eight years we have lost our honor..They made me ashamed ...

[ConservativePatriot]

I believe you have read some of the newly revised history books if you beleive that other countries treated our captured soldiers with respect or gave them rights. Have you heard about concentration camps in WWII? Or the Batan Death march and subsequent internment and starvation of thousands of US troopers in the far East in WWII? What about the torture of our forces in Korea? Vietnam?Have you seen Black-hawk down? (I ask if you watched the movie because I doubt you have ever served in any combat zones!) How 'bout the Jennifer Lynch case where soldiers were executed after dropping arms - then prisoners taken and abused? And what about Afghanistan? In each of these cases the American soldiers were tortured/killed/and given no quarter EVEN though when they captured the enemy they provided them with food, water, medicine, and fair treatment. While I too do not agree with torturing the enemy -- Do not try to claim that our torture of the enemy is going to change the treatment US soldiers will receive if captured -- US POWs have always been treated to torture, disrespect, and death at the hands of our enemies

I wonder if the Taliban or Al'Quida Insurgents are having these same discussions of whether they have treated us too harshly when they cut off our heads on TV?? Just another indicator that we are still on higher ground than they as we discuss placing a wet rag over their faces!

[LeftRight]

Oh, so the fact that our own troops have been mistreated in the past is reason for us to mistreat our own prisoners???? Cause that sure looks like what you're advocating here!

[sviolette]

We should not torture anyone. You cannot justify torture no matter what.

If someone else robs a bank does that make it ok for you to do the same? That is not rational thinking.

[ChelseaC]

oh brother...­..........­.......

[zaz33]

Not being reported by the government or MSM are the thousands of children being picked up, held without being charged, and tortured by the US. Iraq, Afganistan, gitmo, and possibly other locations This has been documented by Amnesty International and the Red Cross.

Some would see this as the ultimate war crime.

Will Congress investigate ?

Is it still going on ?

[Emerald1943]

My son's unit took some 3,000 Iraqi's into custody during the first Gulf War. The Iraqi soldiers were more afraid of Saddam than they were of the US. They were starving and dehydrated. Apparently they were not supplied with rations and water for long periods. My son told of Iraqi prisoners kissing his boots and begging to be taken into custody. These men knew that they would be treated humanely.

Same situation in WW2. The Germans, as Berlin was falling, rushed to surrender to American soldiers where they also knew they would be fairly treated. They were in mortal fear of falling into the hands of the Russians who were known for their brutality.

We held the moral high ground then....but thanks to the Bush/Cheney cabal, no longer.

Also, there have been prisoners who have died as the result of torture. Most people seem to be hung up on debating waterboarding. I would ask them, "does the murder of detainees qualify as torture?"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4738008.stm

[VeggieVeal]

You're right, of course. It's hard to picture Jimmy Stewart waterboarding anyone.
Maybe our American sense of decency was always a myth, but we've lost even the myth now..

[Brandon Friedman]

Exactly. And that's how torture has endangered our troops.

[ConservativePatriot]

I disagree - What is endangering our troops is the inability to kill those that would kill them AND the desire of the far left to do anything to discredit the attempts of the last Administration to keep our country from another 911. If this isn't true then why do we need to draw out the so-called wrong-doings of men and women who were risking their lives to ensure you have the right to discredit their very deaths by returning NOWN TERRORISTS back to the fight---so they can kill even more Americans and Afghan/Iraqi citizens. I believe some should understand that even if you treat these Insurgents nicely they will still be a threat to you because they hate us as Christians and as Americans NOT because we treated their friends bad After we caught them planning/c­ontributin­g/and executing murder against other innocent Afghanistan and Iraqi citizens. I agree we should not torture BUT I also believe that like cancer the proven Insurgents need to be removed (after a proper military tribunal of course).

[BrettnCalgary]

I can't picture him waterboarding, that is true, but I can easily picture him leading a couple hundred B-17's and dropping the lead bombs on a great and ancient city.

[LeftRight]

Which is of questionable use and purpose, but not the point being made here. To equate the legal actions of a military trying to overturn the military of another country (who attacked them first) with our military torturing suspected criminals, many of them innocent......

[Simpletruthiness]

This is nearly point for point the argument I have been making to people who don't understand what the big deal is. For visual illustrations they should watch Band of Brothers and see thousands of Germans surrendering to a handful of our guys. It should also be mentioned that one of the reasons the Japanese fought down the last man and we felt as if we had to drop the A-Bomb is because they thought we would treat them the way they did their prisoners. Our behavior has been unconscionable. When my unit had prisoners we treated them by the letter of the law and with humanity.

[Simpletruthiness]

This is nearly point for point the argument I have been making to people who don't understand what the big deal is. For visual illustrations they should watch Band of Brothers and see thousands of Germans surrendering to a handful of our guys. It should also be mentioned the reason Japanese fought down the last man and we felt as if we had to drop the Abomb is because they thought we would treat them the way they do prisoners.

[swkidder]

Bravo. All "we civilians" are asking our Government to give us is an explicit set of rules that support soldiers like you.

[GraceNeeded]

Thank-you soldier for doing your job AND obeying our laws, as well as international laws and codes regarding prisoners of war. We should expect nothing less from our leaders, or our government and those in leadership positions lose ALL credibility.

[MacQ]

Psst. Given a choice about who to hoist that white flag to, they'd choose the US over any other country. And that includes the last decade, even with water-up-the-nose. There are some who are laughing themselves silly over our conversation about torture.
Ever ask yourself why the Gitmo prisoners can't go back to their own countries (and don't want to?)

[MathIsTruth]

Psst. The gist of the article is about hoisting the white flag vs fighting to the death.

Psst. Gitmo prisoners can't go back to their own countries because.....wait for it....they're PRISONERS!!

(Of course, there are other reasons, including the fact that our treatment of them has turned non-terrorists into terrorists....)

[pjburke]

"... treatment of them has turned non-terrorists into terrorists..."

assuming they've not been reduced to babbling, broken lunatics incapable of forming a coherent thought any longer.

[swkidder]

John McCain said it best, "It's not about who they are. It's about who we are."

[dsws]

Punishing the people who ordered torture should not be a top priority. Court precedents should. Prosecuting people may obtain some precedents, but in most cases getting a precedent requires that the government nominally take the positions that the courts will reject. If the current administration just repudiates the practices and says they're unconstitutional, the record just has one administration saying one thing and another administration saying the opposite.

[Robster]

It's the ones who plan attacks against soft targets- civilian population centers -who are defacto war criminals and as such should be "treated in special ways". Say you have installed a liberal Socialist government in America and the "right", using the guns it has rises up and offers a significat challenge to the new order. Say you capture a high value person and getitng the info he has is vital to your systems survival- what would you do?

[dshwa]

Interrogate him using the techniques proven to be the most effective and fastest... none of which are torture. That's what you torture advocates keep forgetting, that torture doesn't work. It's been cited over and over and over again in this space and in others like it. He'd be treated fairly and humanely because it's the right thing to do, and the most effective? What would happen if those righties with guns caught someone?

[huffy2001]

B.b..b.b.b.but Jack Bauer does it!

[MathIsTruth]

Wait, are you saying that someone that's part of the "right" is of "high value"??

Would you please encourage that person to run for office? We really do need a two (or more) party system in this country.

[WilliamProc]

What is a liberal Socialist?

Do you have a clue to what a Socialist is, or are you just throwing derogatory words out here just for effect?

[LeftRight]

Use proper interrogation techniques, followed by legally trying them and convicting them.

[pjburke]

"...the "right", using the guns it has... "

Is this before or after we Libs teach 'em which end to point downrange?