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Bruce Friedrich

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Catholic Bishops Should Include Fish in 'Meatless Fridays'

Posted: 05/31/11 01:05 PM ET

Catholic bishops in the U.K. want to reinstate year-round meatless Fridays, which sounds great to me, except for one thing: They still seem to think that fish are swimming vegetables.

Like all other animals killed for food, fish are sentient beings who value their lives. Research on fish intelligence abounds, revealing that fish use tools, tell time, sing, and have impressive long-term memories and complex social structures. Fish also create cognitive maps that allow them to navigate through vast expanses of water.

More importantly, like other animals, fish feel pain. Renowned scientist Victoria Braithwaite noted, "[T]here is as much evidence that fish feel pain and suffer as there is for birds and mammals."

Fish used for food are hooked, suffocated, crushed, impaled, cut open and gutted, all while still conscious, and they feel every agonizing second.

For some arresting video footage of fish slaughter, watch the fish portion of the Paul McCartney video, "Glass Walls," here:

Not eating animals is a smart, compassionate decision, regardless of whether those animals are furred, feathered or finned. As actor James Cromwell is fond of saying, "We don't need to eat anyone who would run, swim or fly away if she could."

What better time than World Week for the Abolition of Meat to let fish off the hook?

 
 
 

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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
10:33 PM on 06/09/2011
Thanks for all the thoughtful comments everyone.

It's been ten days since the post went up, and no one has commented in the past few days, so I'm going to close comments.

Cheers,

Bruce
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Finnegans Wake
riverrun, past Eve and Adam's, from swerve of shor
01:22 PM on 06/02/2011
I don't know why I even bother reading any of Brute's rantings here any more. He's not interested in dialogue, only demagoguery.

Brute makes me want to channel Ted Nugent, and I don't even like Nugent, FFS.
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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
08:18 AM on 06/04/2011
This is pretty funny, FW.

What in my post causes you to say that it's "ranting" or "demagoguery"? Your post seems to want to close off discussion, and you even resort to name-calling and cursing. Your little temper tantrum does precisely what you claim (with no evidence at all) that I do. I appreciate you reading and taking the time to post, but you seem not to be interested in dialog--just ranting and complaining, without substantiation. Interesting.

Cheers,

Bruce
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FaunaAndFlora
Daughter of Pan
10:50 PM on 06/04/2011
I think he's referring to your habit of coming in at the last moment, posting a few comments that make it sound like you've "won" the debate (at least in your own mind), then closing the comments section before anyone can reply.
05:38 PM on 06/04/2011
"Not interested in dialogue"? You can't possibly have read Bruce's thought-provoking, well-documented articles, or know anything about him (this man is an expert and active debater on college campuses!). I cant think of anyone more open to discussion than Bruce.
You seem kind of angry. Breathe. Relax. Eat a nice veggie burger. There you go, cowboy.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
02:37 AM on 06/05/2011
Suck up much?

Bruce has a very unfortunate habit of doing exactly what FaunaAndFlora has described. Let's see how long before he does it again.
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ClintBMD
Now where did I leave that Micro-bio again?
01:13 PM on 06/02/2011
The prohibition on meat on Fridays has absolutely nothing to do with honoring animal life. It is a penance - giving up a pleasure or accepting a discomfort to achieve a higher level of consciousness or atone for one's sins. That, and the pope who initiated the ban did so because he was being lobbied by fishermen whose livelihoods were being damaged by more efficient farms and more readily available beef, pork, and poultry. So the pope gave them a little rope while encouraging penance.

The very basis of your screed is wrong so the rest of it isn't worth reading.
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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
08:20 AM on 06/04/2011
Well the basis of my post is that meat is meat, and that if you're going to give up meat (whatever the reason), you should give up all meat.

Why do you think the basis is whatever you think it is? I think you're reading things that aren't there.

Thanks for taking the time to read it and reply, though!

Bruce
06:06 AM on 06/06/2011
When telling people what they should and shouldn't abstain from you can't really disregard the purpose of the abstinence. Saying that fish are physiologically similar to other animals does nothing to sway the minds of people who aren't abstaining from "meat" consumption for any reason even remotely related to the animal's well-being. If they don't care about land animals in the first place, why is telling them that fish are similar even remotely helpful? It's simply telling them something that's patently obvious and irrelevant to them.

It'd be different if you were doing something akin to telling a lacto-ovo about the suffering endured by chickens in large-scale egg farms, since they actually care about the well-being of the animals in the first place.

Let's make a non-meat example using the logic of your rebuttal (We'll hypothetically transmogrify you into a natural remedy guru for this purpose).

Replace "meat" with "drugs" and your argument becomes:

"My point is that drugs are drugs, and that if you're going to give up drugs (whatever the reason), you should give up all drugs."

That argument is acceptable to convince someone who abstains from all types of recreational and/or medical drugs or natural stimulants for health reasons to quit drinking coffee. It'd be totally useless for getting someone with type I diabetes who gave up meth because it ruined their life to quit taking insulin though.
11:03 AM on 06/04/2011
Clint, I don't understand your rationale. If the purpose of meatless Fridays is to give up a pleasure, and some people want to continue to eat fish on Fridays because -- I must assume -- it gives them pleasure, then eating fish on Fridays makes it an empty penance. It's like a decree to be sober on Fridays but still drink beer. Alternatively, if the pope who initiated the ban did so because he was being lobbied by fishermen, if the fishermen were Catholic they should be ashamed of themselves for manipulating the pope into their own selfish ends, and if they were not Catholic then the pope should be ashamed of himself for being manipulated. In either case, the exception made via lobbying should not be supported by any Catholic. For me, it comes back to Bruce's analysis. If meat = meat, then fish should not be eaten.
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FaunaAndFlora
Daughter of Pan
10:57 PM on 06/04/2011
When I was a kid back in the sixties, the only fish that was available if you didn't live on the coast was canned tuna, canned salmon and fish sticks. Believe me, there was no pleasure in eating canned fish or fish sticks. And while I haven't followed the religion since I was old enough to refuse to go church, I do believe the church ended meatless Fridays in the seventies.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
02:42 AM on 06/05/2011
Groan. You don't actually understand the historical context of the prohibition against eating meat of Fridays, nor, apparently, are you aware that when that prohibition was lifted in the mid-1960's, the requirement that Catholics engage in SOME KIND of penitential practice on Fridays, even if that practice was no longer eschewing meat, remained in effect (although largely ignored in practice it seems). By the way, Catholics were never REQUIRED to eat meat on Fridays "as penance."
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Anjushri
Veganism = Ahimsa
09:48 PM on 06/01/2011
Every day should be *vegan* day. There's no moral distinction between any animal product. Meat = dairy = fur = wool = leather and so forth. They are all products of violence. It's all torture. In fact there is more harm in dairy than there is if one ate flesh alone. If we eat wear and use animals, we are participating in violence. If we are striving for a non-violent planet, this starts with us. We must be vegan http://www.veganpamphlet.com and educate others to do so.
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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
08:22 AM on 06/04/2011
I like this post, from Vegan Outreach:

http://whyveganoutreach.blogspot.com/2011/05/worth-repeat-kenny-torrella-on.html

excerpt:
For 2.5 years I had been telling people I was vegan if the subject came up. Now if people ask I say I'm vegetarian, and it makes a world of a difference. When I used to say I was vegan, people would immediately say some kind of variation of, "That's awesome, but I could never do that myself." Now when I say I'm vegetarian, people become more open and tell me about other vegetarians they know, vegetarian foods they've tried, how they've considered going vegetarian, or they had been vegetarian in the past and want to get back into it.
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drvittoriarepetto
09:08 PM on 06/01/2011
ok this ex-Catholic knows that the Catholic Church stopped telling people to eat fish on Fridays sometime in the 1970's..someone please tell PETA
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
02:39 AM on 06/02/2011
OK, THIS ex-Catholic knows that the Catholic Church NEVER told people to eat fish on Fridays. It just told them not to eat meat. And the change, which didn't do away with the requirement of doing some penitential practice on Fridays but just said it didn't have to be not eating meat, happened in 1966.
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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
08:23 AM on 06/04/2011
Thanks for your comment. Please read the link from the first line of my post--in the UK, they're bringing it back! Cardinal Maida has suggesting bringing it back in the U.S., too.

Thanks for reading and posting!

Bruce
08:26 PM on 06/01/2011
The significance of "meatless Fridays" is not for the well-being of animals, but rather, it is for the person who is abstaining from meat. Abstention is for curbing one's appetite and quelling one's desires or passions, which can be fueled by fine foods such as meat. It all has to do with how the food affects the passions...fish seems to have less of an affect on the passions than does a fine meal including steak. That is not to say that one should find the heftiest piece of fish possible and throw in on the grill since eating meat is impermissible. Certainly, it is laudable to abstain from all animals whatsoever, but eating fish is permissible since it does not incite the passions in quite the same way.
see-- http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-we-abstain-from-meat-but-not-from.html
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Bruce Friedrich
Sr. Dir. for Strategic Initiatives, Farm Sanctuary
08:25 AM on 06/04/2011
This is very interesting--thanks for the clarification. I do think we could update it, though--no reason not to include fish, as you rightly note.

Thanks for the post.

Bruce
03:23 PM on 06/01/2011
Very relevant to the above article is what might literally be the single most disgraceful advertising campaign in the history of advertising (a Promethan feat) which is PeTA's creation of comic books, aimed at children, telling them that because they eat fish, their parents are homicidal maniacs that can't be trusted around the family dog without possibly killing it for fun. In fact, the comic book campaign was championed by none other than Bruce Friedrich.

This is a quote, directly from PeTA's comic book aimed at children:
"Until your daddy learns that it's not 'fun' to kill, keep your doggies and kitties away from him. He's so hooked on killing defenseless animals that they could be next!"

And this is the cover of the comic, titled, Your Daddy Kills Animals!:
http://adland.tv/ooh/peta-your-daddy-kills-animals-leaflet

And this is the comic they made to turn small children against their mothers, titled Your Mommy Kills Animals!:
http://current.com/1rsru4c

A direct quote from that issue:
"There are terrible people who cause our furry friends to die that way every day.
And guess what? One of those terrible people is your Mommy!"

It is genuinely hard to even imagine something more shameful than that. They literally hand those comics out to unsuspecting children outside of events such as the Nutcracker. People deserve to know the truth about PeTA. I hope this makes it clear that they have absolutely no business lecturing anybody else about ethics.
05:00 PM on 06/01/2011
Thanks for telling us about this, WITW. I have to say this is shocking, even for them. I guess it's okay to make innocent children suffer and afraid of their own parents as long as there *might* be a lessening of the suffering of animals.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
05:38 PM on 06/01/2011
This is child abuse, pure and simple.

Of course, PETA would find it acceptable to abuse children because they're only HUMAN. It's only ANIMALS we can't "abuse" (e.g., simply by using them for food).

PETA is a thoroughly disgusting organization that has pulled the wool over the eyes of a lot of well-meaning people who sincerely care about animal welfare. But animal welfare isn't REALLY what PETA is about. It's an extremist "animal rights" organization founded and run by a woman (Ingrid Newkirk) who has a lot of really, really warped ideas (understatement), including, apparently, utter loathing for the entire human race.
12:50 AM on 06/02/2011
PeTA's latest astonishingly unconscionable ad campaign is a series of billboards that read, "Feeding kids meat is child abuse." Meat, a food that humans have ate for as long as there have been humans. They are absolutely oblivious to how disgraceful and offensive the claim is. Just because we have different views than they do about diet, they call us child abusers. It's mind-boggling. You can see an article about it here:
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/east-central/240622-feeding-kids-meat-is-child-abuse-controversial-billboard-goes-up-in-scotland/
mothergrace
If they knock you down, bite 'em on the ankle.
02:22 PM on 06/01/2011
Of course there is no move to stop eating fish or meat the other six days of the week, so what's the point?

Even more to the point, not eating meat is supposed to be a sacrifice for Catholics to remember the sacrifice of Jesus. It has nothing to do with whether eating meat is good, bad or otherwise. It was simply chosen because it was considered a hardship to not eat it.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
12:40 PM on 06/02/2011
Not only that, but when the proscription against eating meat on Fridays was lifted in the mid-60's, the rule was still that Catholics should do some OTHER penitential practice on Fridays (a rule that's generally disregarded, I believe) - an individual could continue to not eat meat if that was a "sacrifice," or could do something else that was more "meaningful" to that individual (stay off "Facebook" for the day).

Instead of recognizing that not eating meat on Friday has NOTHING to do with PETA-style AR/vegan dogma (and, in fact, not eating meat as a penitential practice makes NO SENSE unless eating meat is recognized as a DESIRABLE activity), Pope Brucius the First wants to re-jigger Catholic theology to be a reflection of his own vegangelical religion. Tsk tsk.
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Jerry Bourbon
12:48 PM on 06/01/2011
The Catholics worship God, the PETAs worship animals.

The difference is the Catholics are not trying to force non-Catholics to follow their religious beliefs.
06:22 PM on 06/01/2011
Oh Yeh?
Look we have been at war WITH PROTESTANTS!

watch this my hobby is collecting gold cups and wealth for me I AM THE GOD ON EARTH!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck02k6d-_nI
09:39 AM on 06/01/2011
Very insightful. I hope the Catholic bishops follow your suggestions. It would make a huge impact for animals and the environment.
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Jerry Bourbon
12:48 PM on 06/01/2011
I love animals. Properly grilled, they taste delicious.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
12:44 PM on 06/02/2011
You plainly don't understand the Catholic theology behind the idea of not eating meat on Fridays. It has nothing to do with AR or veganism or "the environment." It's supposed to be a penitential practice and as such it makes NO SENSE unless eating meat is viewed as a DESIRABLE thing that you're "sacrificing" for the day.
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Sheldon archer
Facebook name is Yuyun Archer
04:10 AM on 06/01/2011
Every religion has these inane rituals to keep the believers happy. Jews cannot mix any plates used for meat with those used for milk which is a bit absurd considering that the milk came from the cow so is already contaminated. I remember my mother burying cutlery in the garden after I used it for the wrong thing. I never got to eat crabs or shrimps until I rejected all religions. Before worrying about fish it would be better to consider the cruelty inflicted on cattle. I am a vegetarian, for health benefits not because I am a fanatic. My father was a champion boxer and always a vegetarian so we really don't need meat to stay healthy.
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elcerritan
My bio is not micro
12:48 PM on 06/02/2011
Not eating meat on Fridays is, for Catholics, not about such food taboos. It's considered a penitential practice in commemoration of Christ's death on a Friday. Not eating meat only makes sense as a penitential practice if eating meat is otherwise viewed as a desirable thing that you "give up" in commemoration of Christ's sacrifice of himself for human salvation.
11:56 PM on 05/31/2011
The Catholic position of EATING FISH ON FRIDAYS was started to help THE FISHERMAN'S UNION when prices were down.
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Just4theHalibut
10:41 PM on 05/31/2011
According to the American Fisheries Society, the cortical regions that are essential for human pain experience, and whose activity can be observed with contemporary methods, are not present in the brains of fishes and there are no functionally comparable structures. This known dependency of the experience of pain on specific human cortical structures and the complete absence of these structures or functional equivalents in fishes is a principal point of evidence indicating that the psychological experience of pain is a neurological impossibility for fishes.
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Indigo1941
Time traveler.
10:08 PM on 05/31/2011
Now that's just plain silly.
08:38 PM on 05/31/2011
Harriet Beecher Stowe said, "The care of the defenseless animal creation is to be an evidence of the complete triumph of Christianity."

Fish are animals and deserve consideration. They have the same mechanisms with which to feel pain and fear.

There are mother fish who protect their young, there are fish who use various tricks to hide themselves from predators, they fight for their lives when they are pulled up by the thousands in huge trawler nets. Let's choose a kinder way to nourish ourselves and let these animals live out their lives in the ocean.
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Eric Mann
Do you want to be on the opposite side of Progress
09:29 PM on 05/31/2011
Feeling pain and fear are not really high benchmarks on the organism scale. ALL animals feel pain, and a lot feel fear because those are some wonderful survival adaptations.
That mosquito you just slapped? Yep. Felt pain.

Have you ever seen a stop-motion image of a plant getting hacked at? It reacts just the same as an animal, only much slower.

We are consumers. We kill other organisms to live. Get used to it.
04:10 PM on 06/04/2011
Eric, your message hardly conveys the spirit of compassion that most world religions, including Catholicism, advocate. The point is to do as much as we can to reduce suffering and share mercy. As for plants, seeing as they don't have nervous systems, it's more than a bit of a stretch. It sounds like you are looking for excuses to discount a very logical argument...eating sentient beings unnecessarily is not aligned with merciful living.
02:08 AM on 06/07/2011
Plant physiology and behavior is really quite interesting, but it's quite a leap to say that they (or even mosquitos) "feel" pain.

Detecting an aversive stimulus and reacting to it does not imply an organism felt/perceived it. An individual neuron can detect if it has been damaged, navigate the environment, and respond to light in much the way that a plant does, but it's very unlikely that it feels pain.

The ability to perceive pain would actually be a pretty good benchmark--if the mechanism for doing so were actually well-defined.

As for saying that ALL animals feel fear and pain...that's taking a bit of a leap as well. Fear is the result of activation of the fight/flight response in humans and it's effect on our cognitive systems. The fight/flight response is the highly conserved survival adaptation since it improves an organisms ability to flee or defend itself. The emotional component is not required for this adaptation to be effective. So the benchmark is not the ability to exhibit a response that we would consider fearful, it's the cognitive capacity to reflect on one's own state.
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06:00 AM on 06/01/2011
You did note the existence of predators there ... so what you are really saying is "let's be the predator that chooses to not eat its prey."

Because, for sure, other predators are not going to make this choice.