- BIG NEWS:
- Barack Obama
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- GOP
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- Sarah Palin
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- Bobby Jindal
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Less than five years after Christian America's greatest political achievement -- the reelection of George W. Bush in 2004 -- Newsweek magazine announces "The Decline and Fall of Christian America" on its April 13 cover. The issue's lead article is "The End of Christian America" by Jon Meacham.
These stories, and there have been many, begin with the 2009 American Religious Identification Survey that was released in March. That survey showed a rapid increase in secularization in America, doubling since 1990 and a drop in all kinds of religious affiliation. That report brought into sharp focus changes that, in retrospect, were obvious.
But, actually, the story is both less and more momentous than the headline. It is less momentous because even with the doubling of secularists since 1990, only 15% of respondents in ARIS identified as secular. That means that America is still a very religious country and even a very Christian one. Nor will that change any time soon. (Meacham acknowledges this in the article.)
The story is more momentous, however, because growing secularization at some point reaches a cultural tipping point. At that point, and for the first time, large numbers of people begin to reach adulthood without religious training.
Of course there have always been atheists, in America and everywhere. But until recently, almost all atheists have been grounded in traditional religious teaching. They have been in the position of the Atheist relative in Woody Allen's film, Crimes and Misdemeanors, arguing against God at the family Seder. This is true as well of the leading atheist writers of today. They have all been shaped by religion.
In the near future, this will cease to be true. Today, we are still a Judeo-Christian culture with a sizeable secular representation. Tomorrow, we will become a secular culture with a sizeable Judeo-Christian representation.
This is not likely to mean that other religious traditions will step into the cultural vacuum. Interest in Buddhism, for example, has been spurred by religiously trained Christians and Jews who are looking for something else. That Buddhist growth may lessen in a secular culture.
As I have argued on this blog and in my book Hallowed Secularism, the easy assumption that secular culture will be healthy without religion may prove to be false. Secularists have an unwarranted confidence in themselves and in a new cultural formation. In contrast, I think raising children without religion is quite difficult.
Let me take a specific example. Daniel Dennett came to the New School in New York City in March and told an audience that they should all repeat to defenders of religion that "people can be good without religion." Dennett presumably exults in the decline of Christianity.
But religion by and large does not claim that it makes people good. Instead, religion, and especially Christianity, begins with the proclamation that people are not good. We lie, we cheat, we steal, we cheat on our spouses and we allow a billion people in the world to live on a dollar a day.
Which is more realistic about human nature, Dennett or the classic Christian view? And what, and for that matter how, will you teach your children the truth about such matters?
Undoubtedly, the decline of religion is inevitable in a scientific culture. Something, however, must replace religion's wisdom and insight. I assume that whatever that something turns out to be, it will have to borrow from the best of what religion has to offer if it wants to be successful in promoting human flourishing.
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The next time you decide to write an article like this PLEASE, for God's sake do at least a little research.
Your commentary is so full of misinformed and downright ignorant statements and suppositions that there isn't enough time or space for me to address all of them.
I will say that you clearly know absolutely NOTHING about Buddhism if you think that "Buddhist growth would lessen in a secular culture". Upon what do you base this claim? Buddhism would grow and thrive in a secular culture since Buddhism is 100% intraspective, believing that each individual has within himself EVERYTHING he needs to achieve infinite happiness. Buddhism does not have a god or a dogma. Buddhists give credit for their goodness to higher powers or blame their misbehavior on evil spirits. The Buddha Damma shows us the way, though OUR OWN actions to achieve enlightenment and happiness.
That works perfectly well in a secular culture.
I should know. I'm a practicing secularist, humanist, Buddhist.
Correction:
I meant to say that Buddhists DON'T give credit for their goodness to higher powers or blame their misbehavior on evil spirits.
If "something must replace religion's wisdom and insight," then I suggest a little common sense along with some honest self-examination. Throw in a little science and lose the fantastical delusions and denial of reality.
The answer lies within, .....and without any self appointed religious middlemen.
"The answer lies within, .....and without any self appointed religious middlemen."
I believe that's pretty close to what Judaism teaches.
:-)
Your comment indicates a very unscientific attitude toward your subject.
"But religion by and large does not claim that it makes people good. Instead, religion, and especially Christianity, begins with the proclamation that people are not good. We lie, we cheat, we steal, we cheat on our spouses and we allow a billion people in the world to live on a dollar a day."
We can see how raising children to believe that they are inherently bad has worked out... low expectations gives you a low result.
"Something, however, must replace religion's wisdom and insight."
yeah, how about ACTUAL wisdom and insight into ACTUAL reality.
"I assume that whatever that something turns out to be, it will have to borrow from the best of what religion has to offer if it wants to be successful in promoting human flourishing.
that is the problem with the religious... too many assumptions... the world has been given centuries of accumulated wisdom and knowledge of the reality-based kind.
"Something, however, must replace religion's wisdom and insight." What is that something? Many keep searching to find that ellusive something yet it is causing an emotional and mental breakdown. In the meantime, society is losing its moral underpinnings. True peace can still be found in the Prince of Peace.
Hopefully the "replacement" won't require scapegoats like gay people and women...
there is plenty of reality based wisdom and insight... if you can't see it then you are not looking for it... you're probably looking for mysterious and spooky sayings... if you're having a mental breakdown because of it, then you're problem is being hooked on fantasies.
society is losing its moral underpinnings?... that's just some phrase you're picking up to use to refer to the few bad apples that you are focusing your attention on. It's the same thing has the "younger people are lazy and stupid" argument... you focus on what you hate and think that that which you are focusing on is all there is or "where society is going"... moral underpinnings? come on, give me a break. I was not raised in a religion and my morals are fine, better than most christians I know.
Yes, with one caveat...
It's all a belief system. Even science, as delivered to those who don't perform actual science, which is a large majority of the populace, is a belief. Our actual reality will, must, be seen in the far future as we perceive scientists in our far past. Our hearts are in the right place, but...
Lots of religions delivered social science to the world, and wrapped real observations into the mythology to help people know when to plant. People can do the right thing for the wrong reason. There must be many examples of that now that we are unable to see...
The author writes:
"But religion by and large does not claim that it makes people good. Instead, religion, and especially Christianity, begins with the proclamation that people are not good. We lie, we cheat, we steal, we cheat on our spouses and we allow a billion people in the world to live on a dollar a day."
Mmm, yes. Nevertheless, millions of people also donate to charity, take care of their relatives and friends, make wonderful works of art, help their neighbors out, etc.
This Christian idea of people being essentially sinful, fallen, evil--it is a very damaging idea. It does more harm than good, IMHO. Historically, such beliefs were used to justify beating young children (h/t Alice Walker). The truth is that humans are both good and bad. Nobody is all one thing or all the other. As the Stanford experiments showed, an ordinary person can become a brutal tyrant given the right set of circumstances. I believe the reverse is also true. In any case, the point is that keeping this in mind allows one to have greater empathy and understanding for one's fellow human beings--and isn't that the foundation of morality?
I am in the vanguard of this class of people who was raised without any religious training and I can assure you, there is no need for Christian cosmology to promote morality.
"This Christian idea of people being essentially sinful, fallen, evil--it is a very damaging idea. It does more harm than good". When a doctor gives a patient a diagnosis let's say of cancer in the body, he discusses with the patient the best way to treat the disease. Some patients will actually deny the diagnosis and pretend that the cancer is not there. Sin is in many ways like that cancer. The bible says that we have the disease and provides the remedy for it but many will deny this, not realizing that sin is actually is killing them spiritually as well as physically.
This would be fine if you assume everyone is born with cancer. They're not. They develop it. And whether they do or not is not God's will - they do or they don't - and if you really, seriously want to screw up somebody's chance of recovering from that cancer? Tell them it's their fault. They sinned. They deserve to die. If they'd just read more Bible, attended more meetings, spoken in tongues, they wouldn't have that cancer. By killing them spiritually to satisfy your own dogma, you can also kill them physically.
This may be among the best metaphors of the sickness of religion - that a human being can somehow accept, even promote, the idea that humanity is diseased. Well, maybe we are. But it sure seems to me that you're the virus.
And sometimes doctors think they've found an illness when they haven't. It's called a false positive. You're not even trying to consider that maybe the patient doesn't actually have cancer at all, or that the doctor is a charlatan, only in it for the money or the power.
"Something, however, must replace religion's wisdom and insight."
Incorrect. There is nothing in religion that atheists lack. There is nothing in religion that atheists have borrowed. You need to take this impression you have about what atheism is and put it aside. You need to start listening to what atheists actually say about their lives. You are out of your depth and do not understand. Rather than impose your worldview on them, why not let the atheists tell you what it's like?
"I assume that whatever that something turns out to be, it will have to borrow from the best of what religion has to offer if it wants to be successful in promoting human flourishing."
And you know what happens when you assume....
That's an interesting and illuminating comment. People on all sides of this issue seem to have unproductive impressions and assumptions that distort their understanding of those who disagree with them.
"In contrast, I think raising children without religion is quite difficult."
If you aren't without religion, then you really have no idea what you're talking about. Instead, it is much more likely that you're simply lashing out against something you do not understand; a sort of theistic equivalent of the claim that interracial couples shouldn't have children because "it will be difficult for the children."
"Which is more realistic about human nature, Dennett or the classic Christian view?"
Dennett, clearly. When you don't have god to turn to, you don't get to avoid the tough questions. When you put a god in the sky, there is an immediate question of why god doesn't do something. When you don't put a god in the sky, you have to ask why *you* aren't doing something. Yes, "god helps those who help themselves," but why insert a middleman?
"And what, and for that matter how, will you teach your children the truth about such matters?"
Directly, honestly, and without god.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Atheists are not missing something. Religion provides a framework for philosophical consideration of the world around you, but that doesn't mean philosophy is dependent upon religion. Apparently, you really don't believe Dennett, so let me repeat it to you: People can be good without religion.
I raised my daughter without religion, and she has turned out to be a lovely person.
"What is more realistic about human nature" is, that as Deepak Chopra (a medical doctor, scientist and spiritual advisor), Marianne Williamson (a minister and spiritual advisor), Wayne Dyer (a Jungian philosopher) and many others like them all say, we are coming to realise that NON-organized religion and a belief in a Universal Intelligence that unites us ALL is what matters.
The idea that we are all sinful and must be "fixed" is such old news and the awareness that we're all connected, are inherently good, and full of light and that our duty is to look for the good in others is where many of us are heading as we leave old religious structures that depend on divisiveness behind.
Lellie, Eve was deceived in the Garden of Eden by the same line of reasoning. Read it in Genesis. There is nothing new that these new age gurus are telling you. It is the same lie that has been perpetuated from the beginning.
Eve was also a fictional character... anyone can write a book... or stories that are later collected and merged into a book.
Yeah? Where'd Lilith go? You know, the real first woman. The one who was created alongside Adam. She's in Genesis, too, you know. And when Cain left Adam and Eve to dwell in the land of Nod, where did that come from? Adam and Eve, two kids, all the humans in the world? But he leaves to go to another city? Inhabited by whom? There's only four people in the world, after all.
The Bible has value, much like Aesop's Fables (as somebody else mentioned). But if you're quoting it as history, you're not even consistent with yourself.
Most religions actually REPRESS spiritual insight (whatever 'spiritual insight' actually means) in favor of narrow conformity. I'm reminded of video of a Marine pastor just before the assault on Fallugha telling the men they were "agents of Gods Retribution." So much for religion equaling morality.
"Religion" has largely been about something other than religion. its about personal ego, its about tribal alliances, its about social interaction. One train of thought is the crumbling of religiosity in America is because people have turned away in disgust. An alternate theory is that Facebook has become a viable substitute for Religion in the ego, tribal alliance, and social interaction sphere.
Until the problem of sin is taken care of, religion will always be needed in society. We lie, steal, cheat and murder and if we don't do it we think about doing it. Christianity always had the answer but many people today are looking elsewhere for their answers. My suggestion is to seriously read the bible first from cover to cover and if you are still not satisfied, pray and ask God himself what the truth is and if you are sincere, you will receive an answer.
You have some evidence that shows religious people are less sinful than those without religion? See, that's the problem with religion, way too many beliefs, not nearly enough facts.
The problem of sin will never be taken care of, because people are selfish. To the extent that a philosophy can convince individuals to be less selfish for the good of the many, it can be minimized. I've actually read the Bible cover to cover - it's why I became an atheist. I had no idea before that there was so much objectionable stuff in there. I did pray to God, and by the end, I no longer had any desire to pray. Having been sincere, I had my answer. This is maybe my greatest quibble - that people who have not read the Bible insist that if only I did I would believe as they do. 90% of these beliefs do not come from reading the Bible - they come from getting all hopped up by charlatans who tell you what's in it. (Hint: the rapture isn't.)
However - to the point I will agree with your intentions but quibble with your not-insignificant semantics. Christianity is, in fact, an answer. But it is not, repeat not, THE answer as you state. This is the absolute core of the problem. Subsets of people who are convinced they have THE answers are not agents of change or of progress - they are ticking time bombs. If you truly, honestly are convinced you have THE answer then by extension you are equally sure that the other five billion people on this planet DO NOT have THE answer. See what I mean?
Did you sincerely want to know the truth when you prayed or were you just offended enough not to want the answer?
"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."
I don't trust this Yahweh fellow. He sounds to me like a trickster who's escaped from his pantheon.
Great advice... everyone person that I've met that has actually read the bible completely became an atheist.
I've met plenty of people who have claimed to have read the bible, but they often start mentioning things that are not even in the bible, often are unaware of things that are in the bible and have opinions that don't seem to be consistent with it.
Like I said... great advice.
Did you personally read the bible from cover to cover? It seems to me that you are depending on other peoples interpretations and experiences. Don't shortchange yourself. Read it for yourself.
Your heart is in the right place, but your thought is clouded by the insistence that your belief is correct, and thus all others are incorrect. See the problem? You were born and raised to think a certain way. You embrace that way, and it works for you. Thus, you truly can't grasp people not also believing your way could be anything other than "wrong" or "misguided" or what have you.
It's a vicious cycle. You say yes, I say no, you say, "well, if you only understood my way, you'd say yes". It's meant to be helpful, it ends up being arrogant.
Jesus said to go into the whole world and preach the gospel (good news). We can't keep it to ourselves. We must tell the world that Jesus has come, has died for the sins of the world and was resurrected. Those who believe will have eternal life. Those who do not believe will not see life. It is a narrow way, that is why you have a hard time accepting it.
God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow no matter how much internet chatter occurs, He will not change and his plan to redeem the world will continue until the end of time. The real question is where will you spend your eternity? I choose to spend it worshipping God and I can do so with confidence because two thousand years ago "he (Jesus) was crushed for (my) iniquities and by his stripes (I was) healed. "
Please join me. Before its too late.
Love, John
Thanks John, I received Him in 1976 and I have not been dissapointed.
John, I fully understand your beliefs. I was reared in a Christian home and was "born again" at a very young age. My parents shared the good news of Jesus with me every day of my adolescence. OF COURSE I believed it; I was immersed! But John, as I grew older I realized that reality required me to apply logic and reason in terms of what I truly believed. Now, I'm not an athiest because I cannot be 100% sure that God does not exist. However, just as I cannot be 100% sure, neither can you.
I do know this: Everything you KNOW about your faith has been LEARNED. Someone had to explain the concept of eternity, heaven, hell, and salvation to you. No one is born with that knowledge and it does not grow on trees. If it did, why would Christians have the obligation to evangelize the world (The Great Commission)? John, please open your mind. Narrow is the way, but narrower is the mind that accepts everything at face value. The earth was believed to be flat for centuries, but that didn't make it true. Logic and reason, John. Discover for yourself, just in case your pastor was wrong...
"The real question is where will you spend your eternity?"
Probably precisely where I spent the preceeding 6 BILLION years of the universe's existance. I don't have an ego that's incapable of imagining a world continuing without me.
No Thanks. We're doing just fine without the sci-fi story...
the best part is that you're only purpose for ETERNITY is to worship this God... imagine a person that created life to be worshipped forever by it... that does seem to be the main motivation in the bible, God want's to look cool.
please join reality before it's too late and your life is over... don't spend it adhering to some books put together by ancient and far more ignorant people.
his plan to redeem the world ..."
As if the world had done some evil deed. The world is the planet, probably doesn't need redeeming, but could use some conservation.
I was never raised with religion and I am an atheist and I don't see what the problem is about teaching children how to be good people. I'm not a criminal or an addict or an adulterer. That's because I don't want to be arrested, strung out, or divorced. I have plenty of incentive to behave.
Mr. Ledewitz asserts that it will be hard to raise children without religion, but there is a great deal of risk in doing so. If children are taught to be good because god is watching, then what happens when they find out that there religion may not be true, or that god may not exist? Many people that I know who had religious upbringings later questioned that upbringing and got into drugs, sex, and all other sorts of "sins."
I think that even a moderate education in philosophy and history will yield the same lessons that religious teachings yield. I started out religiously educated, through several schools, and found there were similarities. I wanted to keep learning more and that lead me to philosophy where I found a lot of the same thoughts and core truths. Finally through studying history, I believe we can see much of the basis for religious teachings without the parables. I think we all get to the same spot in the end, some of us quicker, some of us slower, it's just a different methodology for learning and growing.
Put it in the context of other post-religious countries -- what has replaced religion in Sweden, for example? Nothing. And Swedes like it that way. What horrible things have happened? Pretty much none. Superstitions are simply not necessary for individuals or society.
From what I have read, they have a very high suicide rate in Sweden. The lack of faith and a reason for existence can lead to depression.
You should look into Divorce rates, Child Abuse rates and pornography consumption in America's Bible Belt. FAR higher than the National Average...
The high suicide rate correlates more positively with the lack of sunlight. Check into it.
It's because it's dark, smarty... being in the dark so much is depressing... otherwise, check out other stats and compare... you might be shocked... also be sure to focus on highly conservative/christian states vs. non... but maybe your fragile mind hand handle information that doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notions.
I'm thinking that's the six months of darkness.
Yup. I used to live in the netherlands. Though there is a growing immigrant Muslim population, I don't think I knew a single non elderly native Dutch person who WASN'T secular. Yet they, like Sweeden, have some of the lowest crime rates in the world, and in general are much kinder, considerate, tolerant, and family oriented than American society.
Race relations over there are MUCH better than they are here. As far as gays- homosexuality siomply isn't an issue. Conservative politicians can and are openly gay and no one says a peep about it. Removing religion seems to have improved their society, not made it worse.
The problem is with the lack of insight! Some of the most un-spiritual people I have ever met, claim to be the most and I not even sure they know what their doing wrong!
http://pitchbendpost.blogspot.com/
Oh, please.....
Here is someone poo-pooing secularism with a strawpuppet version of atheism while calling the election of George W. Bush the greatest "achievement" of Christian America? What a mindset. Make me want to grab a large bucket of water and soap and clean up. I feel dirty just reading this one.
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