A Bronx native and graduate of DeWitt Clinton High School, Eric Nadelstern worked in New York City public schools for 39 years, rising to the position of Chief Schools Officer, Division of School Support in 2009, and to the position of Deputy Chancellor for the Division of School Support and Instruction for the New York City Department of Education in 2010, from which he retired last year. He is currently Professor of Practice in Education Leadership at Teachers College, Columbia University, from where he received a Master of Arts degree in 1973. I had the opportunity to chat with Professor Nadelstern about the issues that face the New York City public school system.
What are the problems we face in the New York City public school system?
We are spending $23 billion of the public's hard earned money in New York City every year to support the country's largest school district, and yet 35 percent of the students are not graduating from high school. The good news is just a few years ago it was half the students, and things had been frozen at that rate for the prior 50 years. Still, 35 percent are not graduating and the 35 percent who aren't are largely male, African American and Latino. This is significant evidence that despite everything we are doing, we haven't been able to close the achievement gap in the city.
What I think differentiates New York from some other countries in the world that I have visited or am familiar with is that we recognize there is an achievement gap. This contrasts with Israel which runs five separate and unequal school systems. Their primary concern, as in many other places, is to produce the few outstanding mathematicians and scientists who can compete with other countries, compared to thinking about educating the entire population to their highest potential.
In America, it is not that we aren't producing enough college graduates. It's that the students who are most likely to graduate are disproportionately white, Asian, and female in large urban areas versus male, African American, and Latino. You can still walk into a kindergarten class in New York City on the first day of school, and simply on the basis of race and how kids are dressed, predict with frightening accuracy which kids are likely to graduate 13 years later. To my mind, that is an intolerable situation and an indication of seated societal issues that we have not begun to address.
Why is the public school system to blame for this?
I'll give you one example of how we exacerbate the problem, however unintentionally. For years in New York City we had a seniority transfer plan. The most senior and consequently most expensive teachers could transfer into middle class schools in areas where they were needed least. That created a situation in our poorest neighborhoods of the revolving door of the newest teachers. This went on decade after decade, seemingly with the approval of those in management positions.
What should be the goal of the public education system?
I am a product of public education. My parents were Holocaust refugees who came to this country a few years before I was born. I was the first member of my family to graduate from high school, let alone go to college. I understand how critical a public education is. To my mind, that is the American ideal.
So what things would you change and how would you make them better?
Initially, we were going in the right direction. We had a mayor who wasn't beholden to the politicians or other interest groups. He didn't seem to have personal ambitions beyond doing the best job he could. He was prepared to take courageous steps to address the issues. As time goes on, people invariably become seduced by the system. Joel Klein used to say I was groomed by the system to run the system but instead I chose to dismantle it, and that is what recommended me to him in the first place. My need was to change things in order to make them better.
In New York, you would have to tell people living in $4 million dollar coops on the Upper East Side that their kids would have as much chance of going to P.S. 199 as a kid in destitute circumstances in the Bronx; and that the school system was going to make sure that the kid in destitute circumstances had the same chance. Could you do that for very long? I don't know, but that is what you need to do. When we were in a position to do it, we didn't have the courage to do it.
I am of a mind that if schools fail to perform their function, it is more efficient and more effective to close them and give others an opportunity to do better. We closed dozens of large underperforming schools, primarily high schools, and replaced them with over 500 new small schools. Those new small schools, according to research, are graduating students from high school at a rate of eight percentage points more than the average school. That was moving in the right direction.
What can schools do about factors affecting kids outside of school?
Schools have little control once the kids leave them. Historically, we used that as an excuse for failure. The better schools create opportunities for parents to feel welcome in the school and even begin to address the needs of the students' families. For example, they'll offer immigration counseling or computer classes in the evening. Some schools partner with community organizations that are able to deal with the needs of the whole family. However, the truth is schools have limited capacity to have an impact on students' families.
Tell me more about schools that were going in the wrong direction and what went wrong.
I'll give you some examples. We closed Stevenson High school. The school had 1800 student absences by Christmas, and no person in the building understood his responsibility. The attitude was it is the parent's job to make sure the kid comes to school. In South Bronx High School, 20 percent of the kids made it to junior year. I met with the principal and his cabinet, and their attitude was shocking. They did not understand why I was so disturbed by that statistic because it had always been that way. If I wanted to see it any different, I would have to give them a better building; I would have to give them better supplies and materials; I would have to send them better teachers; I would have to pay them more; and I would have to send them better kids. If I sent them better kids, I would see how great they were.
At Morris High School there were 1700 kids enrolled. 1100 of them were freshmen. Year after year, the DOE sent them hundreds of 9th graders, and most of those kids never made it out of 9th grade. When I visited the school, one kid had written F... You in red letters across the back door of the building, and no one understood his responsibility to wipe that off as quickly as possible.
The astonishing thing is why there isn't a greater sense of outrage from people who work in the system. The reality is we are becoming inured to failure. The people in the system are not necessarily the ones to blame for this. It is the structure we have given them. The rules and conditions under which they operate lead them to believe that nothing makes sense and nothing will ever change.
What would be the priority actions that you would take to improve the New York City public school system?
With our future as a nation at stake, we need to be bold for our schools to be successful with all children. What I would recommend is:
Photos courtesy of NYC Department of Education and Eric Nadelstern
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C. M. Rubin is the author of two widely read online series for which she received a 2011 Upton Sinclair award, "The Global Search for Education" and "How Will We Read?". She is also the author of three bestselling books, including The Real Alice in Wonderland.
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Steven Cohen: NYC Takes the Garbage Out
The issue in the large inner city schools is as he defined--no authority to enforce basic civic behaviour and systems which are far too large to work effectively. We cannot blame teachers for not standing up as this becomes life threatening without support from the govt of the city. Until we change the system of this school, and most inner city schools, and put in a system of respect, responsibility, and authority I see no positive outcomes. The corporations will simply weed out more of the problem students. And that might be what it takes: instead of continuing to condem generation after generation to substandard instruction and poor learning environments, get rid of, expel, all students who skip, do not attend, fail courses, etc. Break the cycle. Focus on only those who want to learn. Create a safe environment for them. Is this giving up. Probably. But it might work.
Your parents were Holocaust survivors and from Europe. They probably came here w/nothing and spoke little English, if that. They didn't need "immigration classes". Many of the students attending the specialized public schools (Science, Tech and Stuyvesant) are also either first generation immigrants or immigrants themselves and most of them are Asian or Indian. And they excel in school (they would have to in order to go to those schools).
How come those children can excel, and most of them are barely middle class, but those who have been here for generations can't or rather won't? Is there a definite problem within the black and Hispanic communities when it comes to learning?
Now let me say this...I grew up with a lot of Hispanic kids, predominately Dominican, many also first generation (and some born in the DR) and just about all of them have gone on to better things in life - lawyers, police officers, accountants, teachers, nurses, etc. All went to Catholic school. I wonder if you put these kids into a more disciplined environment, would these students learn...or would it be the same old. Another note...the majority of these kids were raised by working (and married) parents, not single teenage mothers which seems to be the norm in public school today. Keep in mind that Catholic school will NOT tolerate discipline cases.
I have a relative who works for ACS (NYC child welfare) and she is convinced that the majority of NYC public school students are being abused at home. Almost every one of her cases, 30+ on a daily basis for the past 10 years, revolved around children not attending school. The reasons go from the student losing their Metrocard and parents crying poverty (yet when she goes to their home she notes the newest and greatest in electronics), to clueless teenage mothers, to total dysfunction in the home, to sexual and physical abuse of these children.
There are 3 public school teachers residing on my block and all send/have sent their children to Catholic school. And I know a few other NYC public school teachers who would NOT send their child to a NYC public school. Clearly that should tell you something.
I know someone who was a janitor at Stevenson (and ultimately he was laid off last year). This is someone who went to Catholic school his entire life and was SHOCKED by the behavior he encountered on a daily basis in the school. Everyday there was a fight, often leading in bloodshed. He said males would urinate in the hallways, females would defecate on the floor of the restroom and he was the lucky one to clean it up. He said the students are out of control, there is clearly no discipline at home, let alone in the school and it's no wonder a majority of these students do not graduate.
The same above person I mentioned has a sister who taught in a public school in the Soundview section of the Bronx. Again, she also attended Catholic school for 12 years and went to Catholic college. She was also in utter shock at the behavior of her third grade class. She said these kids are out of control, do not listen, have clear discipline problems and after meeting some of the parents, she understands where it all stems from. Add in that some of her students were continually left back, some couldn't read or write but were pushed through. She even admitted that controlling the class was impossible - she had books and desks thrown at her and when she complained, nothing was ever done.
There are few white kids who attend NYC public schools. This is a FACT (I think the NYC public schools are 14% white). I'm white and have lived in NYC my entire 38 years and went to Catholic school for 12 years as did my sister and my mother. My father attended both Catholic and public school, in fact he graduated from DeWitt Clinton when the school was all boys and they were required to wear a jacket and tie (my how things have changed). I've known very few white kids to attend public school and the ones I know were predominately Jewish and often their parents had to fight for them to go to better schools outside the neighborhood (I grew up in the Inwood section of Manhattan) or they were constantly ridiculed in school, which happened to some of my old friends who attended Kennedy in the Bronx (and which included the Riverdale section). Not everyone can afford the tuition at Fieldston or Horace Mann.
Most learning occurs at home. And preparation for learning and support for learning, study, and work occur at home. School provides an opportunity to learn, but it does not often overrule the home environment.
1. Administrators have learned what to do when many students fail a high school class: give them a class called "credit recovery" which is easier to pass, and less time, than a regular class, or give them "independent study" assignments, and/or give more students a class called "office," where they do some clerical work instead of learning in a real class. Does this work? It graduates more students, and makes the "graduation rate" statistic go up, but the research shows that more students than ever are not prepared for college.
By the way, the New York State Education Commissioner who helped publicize the low rate of "college ready" graduates, "resigned." He probably resigned, partly, because he looked at a more meaningful statistic (the number of students ready for college), which makes the self-satisfied education administrators, who focus on a bogus "graduation rate," look foolish.
2.Administrators have improved statistics in schools by screening out kids who need special education. (You can read more here: http://chalkandtalk.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/thankfully-there-will-be-no-oscar-for-‘superman’/ ).
As business methods are increasingly used in education, so will the distortions and scandals. (There's more, but I ran past the word limit).
Holding teachers and administrators accountable for the success of students is a setup for failure - the evaluation is almost always rather simple-minded. If the student isn't in class, the teacher can't very well teach them. If the student isn't paying attention or doing their work there isn't much the teacher can do either. You might as hold a builder responsible for the failure of a building made from supplied mud bricks in Seattle and blame them because the same building and materials survived in Phoenix.
Getting rid of tracking and competitive entrance schools would eliminate the safety valve that is currently used by parents focused upon academic excellence for their children. I lived that one as a student when DC got rid of tracking in the mid-60's. The middle class headed either out of the city or into private schools. The public schools never recovered. Now parents have the option of good home / on-line schooling materials. The data from recent Canadian evaluations suggests that students using structured home schooling exceeded the performance of students in the public schools.