Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Guns?
How many shootings do there have to be in the news before we wonder about the wisdom of allowing just about anyone to get a gun in America? Our gun culture is completely out of control.
In just the last two days we have had 13 people killed in Binghamton, NY with a 9 mm and a .45-caliber, three police officers shot and killed in Pittsburgh with an assault rifle and two other guns, and a five children killed with a shotgun in Washington at the hands of their own father. How many will it take before we say enough is enough?
How about the eight people killed in a nursing home in North Carolina a couple of days before these shootings? How about the ten killed in Alabama a couple of weeks earlier? Is there any point when gun rights advocates would admit that we have too much gun violence in America? What will it take for them to acknowledge the most obvious thing in the world?
Of course, their answer is that we don't have enough guns in the country. If we just allowed concealed weapons at schools, nursing homes, work, bars, airports and just about anywhere else you can imagine, then we would have less gun violence. Yes, maybe in bizzaro world, but in this world the more guns we have had in this country the more people have been shot ... with guns.
The Washington case is a good example. Would that father really have been able to kill his four young daughters and his young son without a shotgun? Maybe, it's happened before. But it would have been a hell of a lot harder and hell of a lot less likely. And what would have been the NRA alternative fix here - arm the kids?
I know it's a political impossibility, but we need to reign in the permissive gun culture in America. I've gone to a shooting range several times. I get the allure of it. It's fun and empowering. Until someone gets their head blown off. It's madness that almost anyone can stroll into a Wal-Mart and walk out with a deadly weapon. Guns should be the hardest things to get in America, not the easiest.
So, will a sizeable group of politicians have the courage to step up and demand tighter regulations of firearms in this country after all of these shootings? Have we reached the tipping point? And if not, what will it take? How many more mass murders do we have to go through before we realize how crazy this is?
Washington shooting rampage leaves six dead - Telegraph
6 Dead In Washington State Shooting Spree - CBS News
Gunman 'lying in wait' kills 3 Pittsburgh officers
The Associated Press: 3 officers killed in Pittsburgh shooting
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Today I live in Europe and I could go on and tell you about the gun-free nirvana I have been living in for the past 16+ years but that would be too simple. We have our share of crime here but it is few and far-between and nothing like that portrayed in films or on the scale that could match anything near Americas gun/crime rate.
What I most want to say here is that over the years visiting friends and family are always commenting about how safe and carefree life seems to be here. Admittedly I do take it for granted and when I read all the headlines about the constant gun violence in my home country I get a sense of real privilege to be living here and I constantly wonder when are you people going to say, "enough".
Protecting an outdated and archaic amendment over protecting the lives of it's citizenry is long past due for changes. In the meantime I will continue to live in a part of the world where I as a human mean more than protecting the rights of others to murder freely.
"Today I live in Europe and I could go on and tell you about the gun-free nirvana I have been living in for the past 16+ years but that would be too simple. "
Having lived in Europe myself and done a fiar bit of hunting and recreational shooting there, I can tell you that such a story would be a fantasy.
Maybe you have heard of these Europian firearm companies before?
Beretta,
Walther,
Glock,
Sako,
Heckler & Koch,
CZ,
Tanfoglio,
Uberti,
Blaser,
Kreighoff,
Holland & Holland,
Sig Arms/Sig Sauer/Swiss Arms,
Mauser,
Hämmerli,
Fabrique Nationale de Herstal,
Steyr Mannlicher,
Sauer & Sohn,
Accuracy International,
Parker Hale,
Benelli,
Perazzi,
And I could keep going for a while.
To add to your list:
Anschutz
IZH Baikal
Izhmash
And for a bit of trivia, Beretta is the oldest family owned business in the world. That's a pretty good sign that guns aren't going anywhere in Europe. They'll just be nearly impossible to buy, unless you're a criminal or politician. Which is one in the same in most cases.
Right, gun free nirvana. I am living in Europe as well in one of the northern Suburbs of Paris. I have to say BS. They are definitely guns here, just that only the gangsters and cops have them.
And actually your crime rate can compare with the US crime rate once you remove the bias in the data due to our more dogged prosecution of the war on drugs. You take out the violence related to the US drug trade and it is more or less equal.
Finally, why do you find only 10% of the bill of rights archaic and outdated? Why do we even need a bill of rights? If we are going to trust the government and we assume you are right, and there no longer exists a reason for the 2nd amendment. Then, logically, we could get rid of the other 9 rights in the bill of rights.
I am a long time reader but a first time poster, and knowing how heated arguments get here, I don't want to get flamed. I respect everyone's opinion, so please respect mine. I agree with many of the people on this board and Chuck's article about gun control but, what about the other factor: mental health care and economic woes making people desperate. Mental health issues are still treated with extreme stigma in our culture and that needs to change. At best, they might get the help they need and at worst, their health issues can be used as a way to block these people from getting guns in the first place.
We must acknowledge that gun sales and crime rises due to economic woes . It does not take a genius to figure out that when people are let go of their jobs, people get desperate and do things that are not rational. We must respect the working class as they will always do the jobs that most people never want to do. When they lose those jobs, what do they have to live for? As Bruce Springsteen says in his song, "Johnny 99": "The bank was holdin' my mortgage and they was takin' my house away/Now I ain't sayin' that makes me an innocent man/But it was more 'n all this that put that gun in my hand."
As so many have lost so much confidence in politicians I think when they start being honest we can move our country forward.
As far as guns I would like to know, honestly, the comparison to states that have the toughest and the most lenient gun control, what is the rate of murder and or crimes committed. We cannot get America behind us when we keep using politicial gains to win arguments.
So many people, like myself, see no reason for anyone to carry a automatic and so no reason why anyone should be prevent from carring a revolver. I would not, but if people feel they need to it is their right. I just want to know if automatics are causing more crime
We keep hearing from the media that 80% of the weapons the cartel's have in Mexico are from America. Now I hear a reliable source that most of the weapons are not from the US.
I sure wish I could trust the government-I want to-I sure wish I could trust the media-I want to but so often it is either right or left news. I just quit buying papers as I tend to be a conservative, yet I want other opinions. I live in Seattle and read the PI my whole life . I quit buying it during the last election because it became more of a tabloid. I can make up my own mind-I am not a stupid person.
"So many people, like myself, see no reason for anyone to carry a automatic and so no reason why anyone should be prevent from carring a revolver. I would not, but if people feel they need to it is their right. I just want to know if automatics are causing more crime "
Semi-autos or full-autos?
"We keep hearing from the media that 80% of the weapons the cartel's have in Mexico are from America. "
Because AG Holder rephrased what the ATF told him into something slightly different. What the ATF told Holder was that of the firearms they successfully traced, 90% came from the US. The Mexicans only asked the ATF to try to trace less than half of the firearms the Mexicans had recovered. Of them, the ATF was only able to trace about half. That knocks it down to less than 25% right off the bat. Then you take 90% of that. IOW, it only works out to 17% that they have been able to trace to US sources.
I worked in the west coast and the mid west and the east coast.
The places where I felt unsafe all have one thing in common.
They all have the strictest gun laws in the US.
If you do not believe me check the stats, find out where the most people are killed
with guns in this country.
I will name a few NY, DC, Baltimore, check out their gun laws.
They have made it dam near impossible for the average law abiding citizen to own a gun let alone
carry one. So guess who has guns in the places that I have named.
When someone with a gun breaks in your place they know you are helpless.
Legal gun owners are not going to kill people, when you have laws that let law abiding people have guns it protects all of us.
I am 67 years old and have had guns for 55 years.
Last year two guys broke into a apartment where I was visiting and beat up two of us.
My guns were at home and I never even thought about having one when it happened.
I am moving from Hawaii, they have strict gun laws.
In Honolulu two drug dealers got out of their car with a AK47 and a shotgun and shot a guy 26 times.
This was a block from a police station.
Now check out Alaska, the majority have weapons, I lived there and you can leave your door unlocked.
It might help to note the entire population of Alaska is less than any of the 15 largest cities in the US.
Or that your information is pretty much wrong from the start. In 2005 Alaska had a murder rate per 100,000 people of 4.8. Versus "Librul" Hawaii-1.9, Connecticut-2.9, Vermont-1.3 Massachusetts-2.7, Maine-1.4.
You do have these red states that show how safe guns make everyone: Oklahoma-5.3, Arkansas-6.7, Mississippi-7.3, Alabama-8.2.
Apples=/=Oranges
While the population statistics are interesting, I don't think population has anything to do with it. If you will look, all those states with low murder rates are AFFLUENT places with small numbers of minorities (Hawaii excepted). OF COURSE the murder rate in Connecticut is lower than Alabama!! People living in $500K houses tend not to shoot one another in drug-related confrontations. This is a bit of the hypocrisy of the Northeast - lots of righteous talk about racism, etc, while everyone gets to live in a gated community and look out the window at their whitey neighbors planting flowers every morning. I agree with the poster, though it is just a personal opinion, that most liberal cities I have lived in have been pig wallows.
The short answer is No. There is no faster way to break up the tenuous coalition that elected Obama than to re-embrace gun control. Well there is a faster way...advocate open boarders.
Gun control needs to handled on the local level meeting local needs.
Great article Cenk, and you're right about our gun culture being completely out of control. The pro-gun argument is always A:
any "law abiding" citizen should be able to get a gun, any gun, whenever they want. Of course many "law abiding" citizens cross the line and commit murder with those same guns. In fact most of the incidents you mentioned were committed by previously "law abiding" citizens.
or B: we don't need more laws, just enforce the ones we already have. That idea seems to have failed miserably at preventing or even lessening gun violence in the US, and in fact affects us indirectly in Mexico also because guns are purchased here, sent there and used by the drug lords.
First and foremeost NOBODY needs an assault rufle or semi-automatic weapon. Self defense?? Hunting?? Nope, stricly for killing.
The irony is that the countries where there is absolutely no gun control, in fact where culture almost demands people (men anyway) carry a gun are the very places we consider our enemies, and places where life is cheap: Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Sudan. Is that REALLY where we as a country want to be??? I can only hope not for the sake of my children and grandchildren.
" Of course many "law abiding" citizens cross the line and commit murder with those same guns."
No they don't. There are 80 million gun owners in the US. Only 17,000 gun related homicides per year. That means 99.97% of gun owners never commit murder.
And the vast majortiy of the time, these homicides are committed 'criminal on criminal'. Of course, the anti-gun organizations think if they ignore that fact, nobody will find out about it.
These assualt weapons that you all seeeem to have an ubreasonable fear od are not often used by criminals. According to the DOJ, they comprise about 2% of guns used in crime.
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/guns.htm
Perhaps you just think they're scary looking.
The fact is, they are the most popular target rifles in America. They are also popular for home defense, as they are medium powered, and do not have the over-penetration capability of your average deer rifle.
They are also popular for small to medium game hunting.
Learn something about the subject before you decide what "NOBODY needs".
Please forgive the typos, as I was being nagged at the time.
"First and foremeost NOBODY needs an assault rufle "
Do you know what an assault rifle is?
"or semi-automatic weapon. "
Semi-autos have been around for over 110 years and semi-auto hunting rifles have been sold in this country for 105 years. Semi-auto shotguns are also very popular and most handguns other than revolvers are semi-autos.
The 2d Amendment is not remotely intended to protect "hunting" by "law-abiding" citizens. It is to protect the ability of average citizens to band together and fight off the government if it is hijacked by tyrants. There is not ONE other nation on the planet that at one time or another has not been hijacked by tyrants, so do not dismiss this as an absurd scenario. Along these same lines, when comparing the number of gun deaths across different nations, an honest comparison has to include the number killed by their governments. OF COURSE we have a higher daily toll (though how much of this is simply due to the more venturesome genes inherited from the people who dared to cross oceans is unknown). We have a higher daily toll, but when you factor in the government roundups and killings of defenseless citizenry by even the most 'civilized' and Western countries: Germany, Poland, Sweden, Italy .. we are far ahead of the game.
Defending Freedom has a cost - and it does extract a regular cost in the lives of our sons and daughters - whether it is the proliferation of arms or service in the Army. The only genocide that took place in North America was because the Natives were NOT covered by the 2d Amendment and did not have the right to stock weaponry equivalent to those held by Americans and the American government.
Robert in D.C.
I'm sorry, WHAT?!
"... but when you factor in the government roundups and killings of defenseless citizenry by even the most 'civilized' and Western countries: Germany, Poland, Sweden, Italy .. we are far ahead of the game."
This is tripe. I live in Sweden and I can tell you with confidence that our government does not round up and kill anybody. We don't even have a death penalty! I must have missed your point because I can't believe I have to actually write this.
Besides, are you expecting your government to be hijacked by tyrants? You should have made your system better then. I feel fine with how we elect our government over here, and I've never even held a (loaded) gun, ever.
You don't even know what the terms you're throwing around mean.
Semi-Auto is single pull = single shot. Just like a revolver.
Assault weapon = selective fire, including Full Automatic.
Automatic = One pull, mulitple shots. Ie, a machine gun.
NO civilian can own an automatic weapon. They are banned already.
There are neutered semi-auto only versions of military rifles, but they are no more or less dangerous than any hunting rifle or revolver.
And don't even get me started on your sad attempt at citing violence vs. guns statistics.
I strongly suggest that if you're going to offer opinions on anything in the future, you educate yourself on the subject at hand first.
If we ban guns will they disappear. Even if we send the police on a house to house search for guns will they disappear. We have laws against many things. Illegal drugs is a biggie. But watch the evening news and there seems to be alot of illegal drugs in America.
If we take away guns will the so called gang bangers turn in their guns or will they start to rule cities. Some claim they already run many neighborhoods.
We live in an imperfect world. Passing a law will not necessarily make it better.
"If we take away guns will the so called gang bangers turn in their guns or will they start to rule cities."
That's what happening in Mexico.
"Some claim they already run many neighborhoods."
And that's what's happening in Chicago.
Chicago's most notorious public housing project is a little hell-hole called Cabrini Green. Cabrini Green is run by a drug gang called the Gangster Deciples. They even merited their own episode of 'Gangland' on the History Channel. They have had guns throughout the 24 years of Chicago's gun ban. I guess nobody ever explained the concept of a ban to them.
I lived about 4 blocks away, at 1000 N. LaSalle. Every Friday night I could hear gun fire coming from the Green, and nary a cop in sight. Cops don't go there.
I also witnessed more street crime in my 1.5 years in Chicago than in a lifetime of hanging around, and living in Philadelphia, where guns are NOT banned.
Let me tell you about Ontario Canada where guns are banned,hand guns that is . I lived there 18 years and saw many news reports of homes being broken into and elderly people being beaten and killed . The police came around hours later . And just sometimes a elderly man got the best of the intruders and kicked the crap out of them . The elderly person was jailed for assault . I'll keep it the American way ; We have a right as human beings to protect ourselves.
Many news reports? Where the heck in Ontario did you live?
Ontario has one of the lowest murder rates in Canada despite an increase in gang violence in the last few years.
Don't ban guns ban the assault rifles and other semi-automatic assault weapons There in no need for these in the public . And Cenk is correct.
"ban the assault rifles and other semi-automatic assault weapons "
Do you know what those are?
Not to mention the other question: Do you even know how many times they are used in crimes? Handguns are used in more than 80% of the gun related crimes in America, and yet no one is talking about banning those....
If there is no need for them in public, will you agree will with confiscating them from police officers?
No, because they're the ones the people have appointed to do the actual protecting of us. We could of course all get guns, but by that logic we wouldn't need police.
Congress should use it's special plenary powers and overturn the 2008 presidential election and call on Sen. McCain to replace Obama as president.
Silly, of course! But trying to ban guns is even sillier. All of the above shootings have taken place since Obama was elected, so maybe, just maybe, there is something about having Obama serving as president that subconsciously drives people quietly insane and leads them to commit multiple murders. It's a long shot, but as the gun-grabbers like to say, "If it saves even one child . . . . .". Why not give it a try. After all, nobody really NEEDS an Obama presidency, and if it saves even one life, yada, yada, yada . . . . . .
McCain, of course, conceeded. Sarah Palin would be next in line. Ha!
Oh come on, that's so scary it's not even funny....
As repellent as your examples are, your argument is 100% correct.
Or, we could just go down the path of the United Kingdom or Australia and ban all guns. Then, we could start banning knives, then clubs, then rocks, then airplanes, then cars, then alcohol, then household chemicals, then . . . . When does it end?
If someone has violence in mind, they will do violence with anything that is available.
We can't just live our lives in a bubble, people!
Firearms ownership by individuals is a constitutionally protected freedom. if you are not judged mentally defective, have a domestic assault charge lobbied against you, are a US citizen or permanent resident and are not a felon--you CAN own a gun.
Should you own a gun? That requires a lot of thought and personal reflection. Something that we adults should be doing on a regular basis anyway.
But if you want or need a gun, aren't you mentally defective?
Guns won't keep you safe.
A gun may not keep you safe but a properly maintained firearm in the hands of a person adequately trained to use it can go a long way.
Then why is it that every time a crime is committed, we call people with guns?
Yes, they will.
Nothing will keep you totally safe. Thinking that anything will, is idiotic. However, put a 250lb male rapist up against an aware 110lb female with a pistol and a full magazine, and I'll guarantee that she has a MUCH better chance of NOT being a rape victim.
You are naïve if you believe differently. I am a Police Officer. I carry a pistol as part of my regular duty gear. Worse case, it gets used against a bad-guy. I wish that you were there to negotiate for me, reason with him, tell him that guns won't keep him safe, because no matter how many times I tell him to drop his weapon, he doesn't comply.
The 2nd Amendment protects the PEOPLE'S right to keep and bear arms. NOT for hunting, but to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud
I lived in the UK for two years where they have banned guns. Now they've had to ban locking blade knives too because of all the stabbings. You're right, I guess rocks and clubs are next.
Funny you should mention the UK. Violent crime there skyrocketed the minute they banned guns in 1997.
Courtesy of the Austrailian Dept. of Justice. Check the graph at the bottom.
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi115.html
um..... stupid question, but why are you bringing up an Australian source about UK violence?
How about not allowing a gun to anyone with a criminal history, or mental illness? I personally do not care about guns. But I think our society needs to be more responsible with its citizens. I would like to see that anybody that is diagnosed with a mental illness to get an automatic warrant from the police to get all weapons confiscated. Maybe a more detailed personal check for people to apply for gun licenses. Gun owners should not mind this, if they care for the safety of their family, friends, and others in society.
"How about not allowing a gun to anyone with a criminal history, or mental illness? "
This is already done. In many states even a restraining order is a cause for forfeiture of guns.
From some of these comments, I hope that the next phase of the stimulus is universal MENTAL health care.
Okay, you guys have the "right" to own guns for protection against invading armies or whatnot, but too many people believe they have the right to use guns to protect their bit of turf from the guy who cuts them off in traffic, the neighbour who plays music too loud or the "home invader" who, god help them, turns out to be their own kid sneaking home two hours late. They use their guns to prop up damaged egos against wives, children, co-workers, strangers who might laugh at them.
When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
Some of you people have problems -- and all you think you need is a gun.
Really good post!
I agree. Good post. Michael Moore in "Bowling for Columbine" highlighted the fact that Canada has more guns per capita than the US, yet amazingly lower gun violence rates...it is a mental health issue.
"Michael Moore in "Bowling for Columbine" "
Moore's fake-u-mentaries are about as factual as Saturday morning cartoons. People who believe his propaganda are dolts.
If any of you people ever bothered to look up a fact, instead of parroting a lot of debunked gun control talking points, you would know this. This goes for you in Canada also.
The vast majority of homicides in the US occur in the inner-city, and are a direct result of gang/drug/illegal activity. These people are criminals, and they do not obtain their guns legally. That's why 25 or 30 years of gun bans have had no effect on homicide rates in Wash. DC or Chicago. Gun laws affect the law-abiding
In Canada, they do not have the inner-city, urban blight, drug turf related crimes that we have here. Their demographics are entirely different.
Show me the statistics that back up your assertion.
Oh, wait, you can't, because the statistics don't back up your claim.
They refute it.
As a commander in the demented paranoid unit of the "well regulated militia", I would like to point out that when the founding fathers affirmed the right of Americans to keep and bear arms, firearms consisted of only muzzle-loaders. Since the second amendment has since been interpreted to include fully automatic weapons, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to own and recreationally use a shoulder-held rocket launcher with surface to air missiles.
You can if you're willing to pay enough money and fill out the appropriate paperwork.
"Since the second amendment has since been interpreted to include fully automatic weapons, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to own and recreationally use a shoulder-held rocket launcher with surface to air missiles."
Spoken like someone who has less than zero understanding of the second amendment.
The Heller Court did not interpret the 2nd Amendment to include fully automatic weapons, but they are legal in some states, if you undergo extra background checks, pay for a Federal Tax Stamp, and are willing to pay ten times more for the gun than it's worth. That's why criminals don't use them.
2A and Heller cover weapons that are in common use by individuals, so I'm afraid your rocket launcher isn't covered.
Furthermore, do you honestly believe that the Founders were morons who believed that firearms tech. would cease to advance after the muzzle-loading rifle, even though that technology was constantly advancing throughout their own lifetimes?
Oh, and you ARE in the militia. Check your US Code, wiseguy.
One point mike, we are all in the militia, granted, but it's called the UNORGANIZED militia, which implies REALLY strongly that it's not well regulated....
Well, since there WERE more damaging weapons even then, called artillery, and they seemed to not be including artillery with their definition of "arms", that would run your argument through the blender now wouldn't it?
As in cannons, grenades, shrapnel filled rockets -- as in "the rockets' red glare."
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Automatics ARE banned. Civilians cannot own one legally.
Try learning at least the basics of the subject at hand before opening your mouth next time, you might find you embarrass yourself less often. Might.
What about knives? Can't forget those. Remember the guy who decapitated his own daughter a week or so ago?
"When we outlaw knives, only outlaws will have knives."
The incident you are referring to involved a 23-year old man killing his 6-year old sister. It is absolutely horrifying. However, most people can run away from knives. You can't run away from a gun, and frankly, 9 out of 10 murders we hear of in the news today involves a firearm.
If most people can run away from knives, why is it that Tomohiro Kato was able to kill 7 and injure 10 with a knife when he went on a mass stabbing spree in Tokyo?
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