Joy Behar, I Have a Question For You: When Will the Left Finally Get it On Home Education?
Hey Joy, I'm wondering about something... which homeschoolers do you know personally? Because I have to tell you, I think you're way out of line, saying that homeschooled kids are "demented" and that homeschooled kids are "afraid of other children" as you did recently on your show.
I'd like to invite you and other liberally-minded critics of homeschooling to meet and get to know my kids, who are 8 and 3 and have never been to school. You can tell me if they have any qualms about making friends with other kids, and adults too. If you did, I'm sure you'd think twice about dismissing well-meaning kids and families so easily.
For my husband and I, deciding not to send our kids to school to learn is not all about "mommy and daddy", as you believe. It's about the fact that in the big city that is our neighborhood (Chicago) we have tons of things to do, classes (yeah, homeschoolers enjoy classes too), activities, museums, parks, and different people (both kids and adults) to meet, and we get to take advantage of more of these things because we don't have a school schedule to adhere to.
Every so often, I have to resist the urge to knock my head against the wall in frustration when narrow-minded viewpoints and misconceptions about home schooling rear their ugly head. Just the other day I got into a lively discussion about this on another blog I really enjoy and I'm glad to hear the various viewpoints that were presented.
I think it's healthy for people to see the flip side once in a while. It seems the problem with some folks who consider themselves open-minded, liberal and left-leaning, is that they think you aren't for the people unless you are 100% behind public schooling. That's utter nonsense.
Left-leaning people support the right for men and women to choose marriage, whether they are gay or straight. I support that too. They often support the idea that women's bodies are theirs only and that the government must not make laws dictating their choice to have or not have children. I support that too. So, what's wrong with having the freedom to choose your child's best educational environment?
My kids, though we don't spend much time at home, can be classified as homeschooled, since they don't attend school for their education and never have. So would that make me some right wing, seclusionist nutjob whose only ideal it is to isolate my children and family from the evils of public school? (In case you still don't know the answer: you can read more about my political views here and here and my views on raising kids here.)
Progressives, liberals, those who claim to rally against intolerance based on religion, economic status, gender, education, race, get over it already! Go out and get to know some other families who homeschool, home-educate, unschool, whatever you'd like to call it, read up on it. There are plenty of varying methods and views, far beyond your mainstream stereotypes.
Take a minute out of your day to notice those people who are doing things different than you and try giving them a little open minded consideration.
Follow Christine Escobar on Twitter: www.twitter.com/greenparentchgo
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Most of the people I know personally who home school, are far right religious zealots who don't like that their kids might hear about evolution in the classroom. Sorry to generalize, but I know a bunch of these fruitbats and they are all like that. I also had the pleasure of working in a bookstore while in college, where once a month a group of homeschoolers and their mothers would convene for study groups. The stdy groups consisted of the moms sipping coffee and nattering about chirch while the kids ran around the store like a gaggle of Tasmanian devils on crack. I would also point out, again from knowing these people, that most of the mothers who are supposedly educating their children, never went to college themselves. I can understand someone homeschooling their child if they happen to be a PhD in astrophysics, but the majority of home schoolers are doing an immense disservice to their kids. The proof of this is the fact that most of the kids in one particular family I know have all opted to go to public school. My guess is they realized their mother, who BARELY finished high school, isn't a fit educator.
This blogger, whose kids are luckily an exception to the rule, seems to be taking Joy's opinion as a personal attack. I'm not against home schooling, but I think we need guidelines to make sure the kids are exposed to the basics, like physical activities, the outside world, other kids, etc. Not everything you learn in school is taught in the classroom. It's too bad enough rotten apples out there have all but ruined home schooling for responsible parents (like Christine and her husband) by giving home it such a bad reputation. My sisters were home schooled in NC by my parents simply because my mom was having a nervous breakdown and lonely. Period. Just like that, they were out of school. No questions asked. They spent four years in our darkened living room with my mom watching tv in their bathrobes. Now they are both adults and have severe social problems. They never learned any skills and were exposed only to my mom's view of the world. As a result, remaining close with them has and always will be a struggle for me. At the time, my aunts tried reporting it and were told that since my sisters weren't being physically abused they should stay out of it. That "most people home school their kids do it because they don't like being interfered with". That's why I think everyone should have the option to home school their kids, but it should be conditional to prevent abuse.
I live in a military base and know children who are home schooled. I have found them to be very shy and tend to keep to themselves . My daugher is very friendly and has tried in many occasions to make friends with them and they are just not interested. I kind of have to agree with joy and iam not saying that they are demented , just mabey socially challenged.
So are you saying that all the children at your daughter's school are interested in being friends w/ her? You will find shy kids in all different settings.
I am also a homeschooling mom. I am so sorry Joy behar of the view made a blanket silly statement. We can however not throw the baby out with the wash. I regret you also making such a silly statement that all leftest people feel this way. Joy said that, not all left wing people. Just like not all right wingers are racist. Please refrain from sweeping comments. As Joy from the view should refrain. I am also willing for Joy to meant my 5 children. In which I have 5 like Sarah Palin, my last born with more chromosomes than the others. My family is bright, highly social, talented and we homeschool, not for the fear of, but the love of journeying together down lifes paths. I will send this to Joy also. We must all try not to stoop to such low comments as assuming we know all things about all people. Joy spoke on behalf of Joy not all people to the left.
Imani Mother of Nia, Nzinga, Menelik, Talha and Olu
Enough with the stereotypes! I am a homeschool mom, and I know both conservatives who are against homeschooling and progressives who are for it. We are not all homeschooling to isolate our kids from society. I homeschool because I have a gifted child that could not be accommodated through any school, public or private. (He is 10 years old and takes high school math and physics.) I know homeschoolers that are special ed kids that the schools could not accommodate adequately.
As for quality of education: Tons of curriculum opportunities exist for homeschoolers. My son takes several courses through on-line gifted programs, for example. And many school publishers allow individual purchases of their materials. I have a Ph.D. in biomedical science, so I consider myself well-qualified to address my son's educational needs. At the time he left school, I was a substitute teacher for the school district, so I would seem to be qualified to teach an entire room full of kids as far as the public schools are concerned. Many of the homeschool moms I know have advanced degrees, and all have college degrees.
But getting back to my point, this is not about a political ideology. As Joy Behar's comments and Ms. Escobar's response suggest (as well as a number of the posts), both people who homeschool and people who criticize homeschooling are guilty of stereotyping. Both parties need to be more open-minded.
The latest statistics available are from 2003 showing that more than one million children that are home schooled.
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/homeschool/
From that same site the top three reasons for home schooling were the school environment, to provide religious or moral instruction and disatisfaction with the academic instruction available at other schools.
There are no statistics that I can find that show what percentage of parents home school so that they aren't tied to a school schedule which allows them the freedom to do "tons of other things".
Bringing up your children as examples of socialization and educational excellence is not valid due to their age and how few years the one child has been taught in this way. In this country, for the majority of families, three year olds don't go to "school" and at eight your other child has hardly begun their education.
You generalize in the same way Joy did - progressives, liberals, those who claim to rally against intolerance based on religion, economic status, gender, education, race, etc.
Neither of you should generalize - "get over it already" - she wasn't talking about your kids.
I think maybe it depends on how you define "school environment" whether or not studies show that the freedom to do "tons of other things" is statistically significant. For us the school environment that the kids had 6-7 hours of 180 days per year specifically dedicated to "school" as well as an hour or so "flexible" time for each of those days to do additional school work. Every single time I fill out one of those "why do you homeschool" surveys, the school environment is at the top of my list because we LOVE the freer environment of homeschooling.
My "formerly homeschooled" children are 17 and 19, the younger is about to finish her 2nd semester of college (another hs advantage, the environment encourages them to "move on" when they are ready) the 19 yo is in 1st semester his junior year of college ; both of them have parttime jobs and volunteer in the community. They are both on academic scholarship. They are "examples" of positive outcomes of homeschooling. HOwever, that doesn't mean that homeschooing is 100% effective any more than looking at well functioning public or private schooled students show that public or private school is 100% effective.
I do agree that EVERYONE shouid get over it! She is a comedenne, it is what they DO!
When you talk with homeschoolers, all you hear is how wonderful it is. They completely ignore the numbers of people who try to homeschool and give it up because they aren't knowledgeable enough, or disciplined enough, or just plain interested enough, to make it a success. As a former school director, I know of a number of failed homeschooled kids, who were returned to the public schools, and had to be coddled to be brought up to speed with the rest of the age group- which takes valuable teaching time away from the rest of the class. None of that is ever mentioned by homeschoolers, or else it's dismissed as an "exception" although it happens frequently.
Also, this bit about kids with motivated parents do well with homeschooling? It's true. However, kids with motivated parents do well with public schools and with private schools. The success factor seems to be the involvement of the parents. So yes, some homeschooled kids do very well, but I've never seen any evidence that they do better than they would do in a public school. We hear a lot, but my impression is that it's mostly from parents who want to brag.
And yes. There are certainly homeschooled kids who are completely unprepared to deal with real life, as there would be in any isolated environment. Keep kids away from people of different backgrounds, as the religiously-based homeschoolers do, and you can't expect anything else.
People in schools see the "homeschool failures" coming into institutional schools. People in homeschool groups see "public school failures" and "private school failures" coming into homeschooling.
The only thing this proves is that caring parents seek out the best choice for their children and like most everything, education is not one size fits all
(part 2 of comment)
*I* would, of course, like to see all homeschooled children brought up to respect everybody else's right to choose their own religious beliefs, respect women's rights in reproductive matters, accept and respect people of all races and ethnic backgrounds, learn compassion for those in need, be exposed to a great variety of cultures, literature, art, music, etc. But, because I don't want the government dictating what *my* children believe, think, learn and do all day, I am willing to allow the religious fundamentalists the right to the same freedom from government oversight.
In my experience, and to the best of my knowledge, the rate of ignorance, illiteracy, and unpreparedness to cope with life as an adult, as well as the rate of child abuse and neglect, is higher among those who attend public schools than among the homeschooled. And if you look at the prison population, I doubt you would find one in a million criminals who were homeschooled as kids. Even among those who end up in prison for committing hate crimes!
(continued again in another post due to length limitations)
Ivyfree wrote, "And yes. There are certainly homeschooled kids who are completely unprepared to deal with real life, as there would be in any isolated environment. Keep kids away from people of different backgrounds, as the religiously-based homeschoolers do, and you can't expect anything else."
There are both homeschooled kids and traditionally schooled kids who are completely unprepared to deal with "real life". The ones from the public schools who are unprepared to deal with "real life" seem to get into a lot more trouble (eg., drugs, gangs, teen pregnancies) as teens and adults than those from isolated religious-extremist homeschool backgrounds.
I don't particularly *like* religious extremists who specifically want to keep their children from associating with people from different backgrounds, but the ones who don't homeschool often send their kids to religious private schools. Or they send the kids to public schools in small towns where everyone else is just like them, and teach them religious intolerance and racism at home. It's not the religious exclusionism, per se, that leaves kids unprepared for life in the "real world". There are plenty of fundamentalist Christian homeschooled kids who, just like their privately (or publicly) schooled counterparts, grow up in their own little church groups, get an adequate, although extremely biased and narrow, education, then attend private Christian colleges, date and marry and work within their isolated little religious communities, and live happy, productive lives.
(Continued in another post, due to length limitations)
Ivyfree says:
"As a former school director, I know of a number of failed homeschooled kids, who were returned to the public schools, and had to be coddled to be brought up to speed with the rest of the age group- which takes valuable teaching time away from the rest of the class."
As a member of society, I know of a number of failed public schooled people, who were returned to world, and had to be coddled to be brought up to speed with the rest of society -- which takes valuable resources away from the rest us.
We could go around and around about this. To judge a whole based upon the failures of a few is short sighted.
Ivyfree said: "However, kids with motivated parents do well with public schools and with private schools."
This is an excellent point, it's not always about which method is better, just which method is preferred.
"my impression is that it's mostly from parents who want to brag"
Ouch. Got ad-hom? Yeah, we never see bragging public school parents...
I am a "liberal minded person" and here is my problem with home schooling in your state-there is absolutely no regulation-and you know us liberal folk believe in govt intervention.
When a member of my family decided her children would never go to public school for fear they would be molested, all they did was call the local school principle, and inform her their children would be homeschooled and it was over. When we get together for family parties her children follow my daughter around and study her like she is some museum exhibit-constantly asking her questions about life in a school etc.
These kids play on the computer and watch tv all day-they don't go anywhere, they don't belong to any social groups-and in the end she will turn out three adults who are not prepared for anything but the welfare roles.
So if homeschooling is so great, and you are liberal minded, get your homeschool friends together and work with the state to impose some basic standards-because what is happening in Illinois is shameful. I know that this is not the average home school situation, but I think it happens more than people want to admit.
I live in a neighboring state, I have no political clout in Illinois. I-and everyone from the school principle to social services agrees what is happening is horrible but it is not illegal-and that is wrong.
I am not sure about the logic of your "cause and effect" here. You fail to show how the children's activities (which you are apparently basing on what you "have heard" they do all day since you aren't even in the same state) will result in them only being prepared for the welfare rolls.
I don't have to live in the same state to have conversations with the children about how they spend their days-I have even purchased them a family membership to the Children's Museum, and was never used.
I am not saying the homeschooling movement is right or wrong, but a little regulation/supervision would not hurt. In some instances it sounds great-yours being one of them, but it also allows for great abuses.
When I spoke with the Superintendent of Schools in my sister's district-she told me off the record that with current school over crowding it is a relief to get the phone call from the parents that they will be homeschooling. If you met my sister's children you would also recognize there is a problem, and frankly they are giving homeschooling a terrible name.
greenacresmom wrote, "So if homeschooling is so great, and you are liberal minded, get your homeschool friends together and work with the state to impose some basic standards ..."
I am liberal-minded, and a homeschool mom. Before imposing any kind of basic standards of *anything* on homeschoolers, I would work with the state to impose some basic standards of democracy and freedom for children in schools!
Schooled children spend almost every school day in the school building and "don't go anywhere" either! If they're lucky, they get one or two field trips per year! Other than that, they spend their time being forced to sit in uncomfortable chairs, listening to mostly-boring teachers talking at them, or being forced to do tedious, *irrelevant* reading and written exercises, with no choice of what to learn or how to learn, while being forbidden to speak to their peers, and subject to the authority of a teacher who has too many students to develop any kind of caring relationship with any of the students or to even answer their questions!
Meanwhile, the teachers are allowed to punish children at whim, for *anything*. Forgot your pencil? You have to skip your once-a-week recess and sit inside and copy words from a dictionary. Disagree with the teacher's opinion? You get detention, or an "F" on a test. That's not *my* idea of how to raise kids in a Democracy!
Most state that "allow" homeshcooling (the terminology is bad, it's a parental right!) have a set of rules put into play. Check your state laws on the issue. There has been a big controversy here in CA over that recently IIRC where a judge totally blew a ruling and had to reverse himself.
That being said, the socialization myth persists. My 5-year old is homeschooled because he has speaking problems, but he isn't stupid. He is doing third-grade math NOW and also helps me in the home repairs, even with wiring and plumbing (dead circuits and turned off water, of course). In the public school he'd be in special ed because of his speech problems and bored out of his mind. he has plenty of interaction with kids in public and the only time he had any problems was with a playground bully, and he just laughed at him and left.
The problem with the Bismarckian public schools is that they teach to the lowest common denominator, and one size doesn't fit all. I strongly suggest reading John Taylor Gatto for the read scoop.
There are certainly exceptions. The problem for me with homeschooling is that it presents only the parents point of view to children, and they grow up without the broader community exposure and experience.
I am a very highly educated man with two children and I have been actively involved in their education all of their lives. We discuss what they learn in school and what they think about it. We discuss what I think about things,a nd what others think. While I think the public school system is a disaster, I still think being a part of the larger community prepares you for life better than an isolated existence where you are exposed to limited points of view.
Home schooling, as well as religious private schools, tend to present only one view and as a result raise children to think less for themselves. Only when we are confronted with an authority figure who believes differently than we do, do we learn to challenge our own beliefs and theirs. It forces us to reason.
There are many home school kids with excellent manners and an adequate level of education. Their ability to cope with people of different ethnic, religious or political views are almost always stunted. There is really no way it could not be, since the motive for homeschooling is to prevent children from being exposed to those differences. While your efforts may be noble, you should not be the sole authority figure or educator in your children's lives.
Their ability to cope with people of different ethnic, religious or political views are almost always stunted.
On what do you base this comment? Just wondering because anecdotally I haven't seen this in the 200-300 homeschooled students I have met since we started homeschooling 10 years ago. As a college instructor I HAVE seen students who have inability to cope with people of different ethnic, religious or political views from all types of educational backgrounds. Furthermore, if you meet people as adults, most of the time you are not even going to be aware of HOW they were educated, it just seldom comes up in adult conversation
"Home schooling, as well as religious private schools, tend to present only one view and as a result raise children to think less for themselves."
Children in public schools are not allowed to think for themselves either! Public schools only substitute one type of indoctrination for another! Do you think that children in schools are encouraged to question what they are taught? When was the last time that you spent a day in a public school?
"[Homeschooled kids] ability to cope with people of different ethnic, religious or political views are almost always stunted. There is really no way it could not be, since the motive for homeschooling is to prevent children from being exposed to those differences."
*The* motive for homeschooling? That's not *my* motive for homeschooling! Nor is it the motive of any of the 200 families who belong to our secular, diverse homeschool group!
It is invalid and unfair to make hasty generalizations or apply judgmental stereotypes to home schooled children. Home schooled children can and do thrive in enriched learning environments that offer opportunities not available in traditional classrooms.
With that said --home school as a movement is rooted in the fundamentalist movement. Anecdotal evidence strongly suggests that most parents choose to home school to indoctrinate their children.
According to a 2003 survey conducted by the National Center for Educational Statistics, 72 percent of parents said religious instruction was the main reason they home schooled. www.ed.nces.govv)
Popular publishers like Bob Jones University Press, A Beka, and The Accelerated Christian Education curriculum are widely used by parents to home school their kids. Examples of the information found in these home school textbooks include: witchcraft is the cause of Africa's poverty, Hindus are incapable of comprehending and writing history, liberalism is not supported in the bible but conservatism is dedicated to biblical principles, evolution is an unproven theory, the earth is 6,000 years old, etc.
False information, denial of scientific theory, and judgmental assertions about different cultures is imparted to the majority of home schooled children.
The home school movement -- not home school --fosters intolerance and ignorance not critical thinking or academic excellence.
See Christine Escobar's Profile
It's unfortunate that the only statistics available online are ones based on a very small voluntary sampling of families. In urban areas, you will find a great number of secular homeschoolers who do not subscribe to the ideas you mention. Many of the early pioneers of the homeschooling movement in the late 20th century, came from a non-religious viewpoint:
http://www.homeschoolinginillinois.com/gettingstarted/history/inportantpeople.aspx
Christine and everyone -
Indeed, parents home-school for different reasons, and I agree that research can’t always be legitimately generalized to the entire population of a group. There are children thriving and excelling academically in home-school. I certainly don’t judge anyone who decides to home -school a child. Children have different needs and learning styles and families have diverse values.
I am drawing a conclusion based on the information available. Most parents say they home–school for religious reasons. The Christian Right has an entire cottage industry that dominates the home-school market. The most popular home-school resources are published by the Christian Right and contain information that is not based on fact and promotes the fundamentalist political agenda. Organizations like the Home School Legal Defense Fund are bank rolled by the Christian Right.
I do understand that not every parent who chooses to home-schools is a fundamentalist or uses the home-school resources published and championed by the Religious Right, but it is easy to understand why many people associate home-school with fundamentalism/Christian supremacy/ Dominionism.
Like you drawing a conclusion about the "Left" from a tv personality?
"The home school movement -- not home school --fosters intolerance and ignorance not critical thinking or academic excellence." Beachchick
This is just plain wrong. I've been home educating for the past 12 years.
My kids are both grown, one is working and very happy with his job. My other kiddo is finishing her first semester at Duke University where she has a FULL RIDE scholarship.
The other families we know and have grown up with are not the least bit religious. We are mostly secular homeschoolers and offer a varied and wide education for our kids.
There are religious groups that have tried to speak for all homeschoolers like the HSLDA who are just plain creepy, but the vast majority of homeschoolers are like EVERYONE else.
Try a website like: http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/extras/A2Zchat.htm and learn what homeschooling is all about.
You are grossly generalizing and entire segment of the community. Get to know what we are really about before doing making false statements about the homeschooling community.
Yes there are some people who certainly should not be homeschooling. I see many more miserable kids who truly hate the one size fits all education that schools offer.
False information, denial of scientific theory, and judgmental assertions about different cultures is imparted to the majority of home schooled children.
Reference PLEASE! I believe that the above is a judgemental assertion based on false information. You have taken excerpts from a few textbooks that are "popular" and used this in attempt to "prove" your conclusion.
I was the adult mentor for our homeschoool high school Model UN teams 2 years in a row and I can tell you that my students could have spoted MANY logical fallacies in your statement (and for the record, of the 8 students I had involved during that time, 2 won spots on their college MUN teams and 4 are still in high school)
My sister dealt with home schooled kids on at least a weekly basis as a nature guide/teacher, of sorts. She was responsible for teaching children about nature,ecology and biology from schools that participated in school sponsored field trip type events. She would take the kids on nature hikes, discuss the biology of trees, animals, that kind of thing. It used to drive her absolutely crazy when the areas home schoolers would also participate in these events, because she was TOLD she HAD to waterdown the subject matter, as the parents didn't want their children exposed to ANY information that might pertain to evolution. I am sure that there is some home schooling where the children are receiving a good education... But based on my sister's experience, the primary objective for home schooling in her area was to prevent the children from wandering "outside the fold", so to speak.
she was TOLD she HAD to waterdown the subject matter, as the parents didn't want their children exposed to ANY information that might pertain to evolution.
Told by whom? The leader of the homeschool group or her own superviser who may have been basing their information on their own biased opinion of what "all homeschooled groups" want. I have set up many, many field trips and have never asked anyone to skip info pertaining to evolution (DID ask one historic re-enactor to downplay his discussion of the prevalence of syphillis in the 1600's while he was addressing our under 10 crowd but other than that can't think of a single instance of "censorship" if info.
Interestingly the only "flak" I have gotten abt a presentation I have scheduled was over a professional astronomer I recruited for a Girl SCout event and all the parents who complained had their daughters in public school but they thought the professor mislead their girls about the "end of the earth"
I have experienced both mothers and fathers with a firm dedication in networking with other home schooling parents, using educational material, and providing social connection.
I have also experienced, within my own family, an only child who is alienated from the world, and unable to attend public high school, as a result of being educated at home. Not all parents are aware and prepared.
It is possible Joy's remarks were as a result of past experience. I believe she hasn't been teaching for 30 plus years.
Excellent article. Public school is so incredibly flawed, as evidenced by the US' terrible standing in education, and if I recall correctly, homeschooled children do better on tests than public school kids.
Certainly there are some parents who are freaked out by things and try to isolate their kids, but I don't believe that's the majority.
I went to public school, it sucked terribly. The only reason I have any sense at all is because I read books obsessively. American history was taught as if it was tedious, completely unremarkable. Not only that, my brother, who has Asperger's was actually bullied by some of the teachers.
It was truly a horrible experience. Glad to have made it through the system relatively successfully.
My my experience I have managed a couple of adults that were "home schooled" and they were the most unyielding, intolerant and immature people I have known. They truly had no concept of people and buisness practices. It really was hard for them in the working world. As for parents who home school, I don't get that either. School is good for kids. Staying at home with mom or dad all day is not.
"School is good for kids. Staying at home with mom or dad all day is not."
School is good for a *few* kids. It makes most of them miserably unhappy, and teaches them NOT to think, not to question, not to enjoy learning, and not to care about anything meaningful.
Children stayed home with their parents most days of their lives for millions of years, and the human species thrived and flourished that way. Just because the government instituted a new form of mass education and made it compulsory does NOT mean that that is what's best for kids, and that the way older societies were organized by hundreds of cultures around the world was somehow detrimental to the children.
Besides, most homeschooled children do NOT stay home all day, every day. They typically go, on various days, to classes and homeschool group and youth group/scout activities, go to parks and museums and on day-to-day errands with their parents (that's an example of being out in the "real world" while the schooled children are shut up in a building all day), volunteer in their communities, and go to friends' houses more often than schooled children.
I think Joy owes an apology. She's a good person and sincerely decent. I'm sure she will as soon as she realizes how she is mistaken and offended many of us.
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