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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Steve Karmazenuk
Author, Freelance Journalist, Curmudgeon
12:23 PM on 11/18/2011
So once again we're not allowed to criticize Israel's destructive policy towards the displaced Palestinian people, the stolen, occupied lands, or its general "Burn them with white phosphorous bombs" foreign policy?

What a load of garbage. Anti-Zionism DOES NOT equal anti-Semitism. I don't care if Martin Luther King JR said otherwise; even great men can be wrong, and he was wrong about Zionism.
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
12:34 PM on 11/18/2011
Anti-Zionism DOES NOT equal "criticizing Israel". Anti-Zionism means opposing Israel's existence.
JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
02:29 PM on 11/18/2011
Exactly.
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Steve Karmazenuk
Author, Freelance Journalist, Curmudgeon
03:39 PM on 11/18/2011
No, anti-Zionism means opposing Israel's supposed right to continue to occupy and build on land that does not belong to it. It means opposing the ghettoization and collective punishment tactics used to slowly wipe the Palestinian people from existence. It means opposing the idea that Israel's strike-first, blame-the-victims later foreign policy is somehow justified.
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Gui Montag
Former Palestinian Supporter
02:05 PM on 11/18/2011
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
02:22 PM on 11/18/2011
Its not a strawman when the poster is directly disagreeing with the article and references it in his post.

Where did you go to school, man?!
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Cynthia Rays
peace in the valley seeker
12:19 PM on 11/18/2011
Dr. King would never condone what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Do you really believe he would believe that demolishing someone's home to make way for a wall to keep them from their farm land was justifiable? Do you believe that he would condone a government that supports settlers attacking Palestinians while they harvest their crops?
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
01:15 PM on 11/18/2011
I am not so arrogant as to dare to predict what MLK would do if he were alive today. Clearly, that is not an issue for you either.
JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
02:29 PM on 11/18/2011
Right, he was a big fan of rocketing civilians......
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Trollstein
Once you go Schwartz, you never go back baby
06:20 AM on 11/19/2011
Precisely. Its the same psychosis as people who think they can channel everything Jesus would have said or done. Both are dead and we can no more speak for them then we can transport ourselves back through time..
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
11:44 AM on 11/18/2011
Lets not pretend MLK supports the modern state of israel's policies of occupation and apartheid by a single offhand comment he made 40 years ago. Lets not pretend he'd accept israels confiscation of Palestinian land based on ethnicity.
Any comments MLK may or may not have made were well before the modern State of israel began its forced Judeoficat­ion of Jerusalem. They were made well before the it annexed Palestinia­n land and started illegally shipping hundreds of thousands of israeli citizens beyond its borders.

MLK may or may not have made the comments. The point is irrelevant. They simply don't apply to todays israel. MLK was all about inclusion, equality and fairness.
JacksonJones
Absit iniuria verbis!
02:34 PM on 11/18/2011
While we're busy not pretending things, let's also not pretend that your comment and the truth overlap in any meaningful way.

For example, you seem either violently unaware of or deceptively lying about the fact that Jerusalem was majority Jewish before the onset of the 20th Century and that the Jews of E. Jerusalem were ethnically cleansed by Jordan in 1948.

Another example is that you seem either violently unaware of or deceptively lying about the fact that inclusion, equality and fairness have nothing to do with Arab policies vis-a-vis Israel outside of the recent ones committed to by Messrs. Abbas and Fayyad (whom Hamas is busy trying to push aside).
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
07:03 PM on 11/18/2011
Jews have lived in every country of the world at some point in history

Do those countries belong to the 63 year old state of Israel too?
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Douglas Anthony Cooper
Novelist (Amnesia), www.dysarm.com
04:00 PM on 11/18/2011
I'm sorry, but this is just silly. I don't know where you're getting your Israeli history. You comment: "They were made well before ... it annexed Palestinia­­n land."

Martin Luther King's comment was made in 1968. The West Bank was occupied in June 1967, during the Six-Day War.

Also worth nothing: when Dr. King said this, Israel was four times the size that it now is. It included the entire Sinai Peninsula -- land that was relinquished after he died.

In short: Dr. King was commenting at a time when it was *much* easier to make the claim that Israel had imperial ambitions. (The claim was dubious then; it's ridiculous now.)
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
04:45 PM on 11/18/2011
In the 63 years israel has existed, Sinai has never belonged to israel. Ever. It has always been part of Egypt.

You cant seriously deny israel has no imperial ambitions? Its occupying TWO countries!
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
05:16 PM on 11/18/2011
If you're claiming that its easier to make the claim that israel has imperial ambitions after one year of occupation than 47 consecutive years of occupation, land theft and settlement, I must really question your logic.
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spinnerator
10:44 AM on 11/18/2011
"Unfortunately, he did. He said them at a dinner party in Cambridge (as quoted by Seymour Martin Lipset in Encounter magazine, December 1969, p. 24)"

Why is this an unfortunate truth? Seems to me a good thing.
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MelissaGoldman
One moment in time--RIP Whitney
10:16 AM on 11/18/2011
One of the best articles I've ever read on HuffPo.
Btw, Mr. Cooper--I am as liberal as can be, support Israel AND am a huge fan of MLK. Israel is the epitome of liberal values from free access to abortion, equal rights for homosexuals, the desire to be eco friendly in all they do, to their animal rights movements...they are now talking about a law that bans declawing cats because it's inhumane!
No true liberal would ever be anti-Israel.
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Cynthia Rays
peace in the valley seeker
12:16 PM on 11/18/2011
"Parents of some 400 children are protesting issues such as prohibition against kindergarten girls singing."
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/israeli-parents-protest-growing-extremist-bent-in-religious-schools-1.396221

"Top settler rabbi: Soldiers will sooner choose death than suffer women's singing"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-settler-rabbi-soldiers-will-sooner-choose-death-than-suffer-women-s-singing-1.396180
12:39 PM on 11/18/2011
This is good stuff Cynthia Rays, thanks for pointing it out.

It is very worth highlighting that all of Israel's darker side is aired, and available in English. No society is perfect and it is only by showing the imperfections that we can keep a balance.

If only the Palestinians (& most Arab countries) had the freedom to do the same instead of controlling journalism! I venture to suggest that were that the case, peace would have been achieved long ago.
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
12:44 PM on 11/18/2011
Meanwhile, people are being gunned down in the streets of Syria.
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Cynthia Rays
peace in the valley seeker
12:58 PM on 11/18/2011
“If you believe that the rights and interests of any one group of people is different, special, apart or more compelling to you than any other group of people, stop calling yourself a progressive.

stop calling yourself a liberal.”
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
01:16 PM on 11/18/2011
Well said. The rights and interests of Palestinians especially are not different, special, apart or more compelling than any other group of people.
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MelissaGoldman
One moment in time--RIP Whitney
01:16 PM on 11/18/2011
I call myself a liberal because that is what I am.
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montezaro
09:35 AM on 11/18/2011
One thing that is really bothering me is that you can say anything against Italians, you can insult Greeks, French, make fun of Americans, you name it. But, say anything against Israeli - you are doomed. Aren't they just human beings like the rest of us, or I missed something?
Both of my parents are Concentration camp survivors. As a very young child I knew more about Dr. Mengele than most of you, had nightmares from my parents and their friends (with numbers tattooed on their hands) stories. I am definitely not responsible to what happened than. Being accused of antisemitism is at least in my case - absurd.
Don't tell me that they are surrounded by enemies. We all are. No nation on this planet is worth more than another. Some, throughout the history thought that they are. With the results that we all know.
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Gui Montag
Former Palestinian Supporter
09:41 AM on 11/18/2011
"Don't tell me that they are surrounded by enemies. We all are. "

Is that some kind of a joke? You really think that Canada and Mexico are America's enemies?

It's one thing to criticize Israel, it's another thing to do so from a platform of utter delusion. Come on man.
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Vlady
Better Late
01:59 PM on 11/18/2011
>>Don't tell me that they are surrounded by enemies

I agree. It's so depressing to know.
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Gui Montag
Former Palestinian Supporter
09:03 AM on 11/18/2011
YEAHHHH!!!!!!!
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
08:10 AM on 11/18/2011
MLK would be turning in his grave if he knew the way that modern Zionists were using his name for their own ends. If he was alive today he'd undoubtedly support Palestinian emancipation and an end to the israeli occupation.
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
08:22 AM on 11/18/2011
I am not so arrogant as to dare to predict what MLK would do if he were alive today. Clearly, that is not an issue for you.
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Nwo2012
Sue me, I boycott products from the settlements
12:46 PM on 11/18/2011
Anyone who supported civil rights in the 60s would support it in 2011.
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Douglas Anthony Cooper
Novelist (Amnesia), www.dysarm.com
08:37 AM on 11/18/2011
Now let's see. You actually read the article, yet cling to this fiction how, precisely?

Either you refute the evidence I present (hint: you can't), or stop putting your agenda in Dr. King's mouth.

You may well be a fine human being. I can't really say. But he thought you were a bigot.
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
08:43 AM on 11/18/2011
No, he's a bigot. You are spot on.
02:23 PM on 11/18/2011
By the reasoning inherent in MLK's quote, anyone who didn't support the Black Panther movement in it's entirety, was anti-black, and thus a racist. MLK may very well have actually said the quote, that doesn't mean he was right, regardless of the authority you ascribe to him. To say "X" is correct because "Mr. Z" said "X", and thus that "Y" is wrong, is a basic logical fallacy.
Rosin the Bow
Palestine doesn't want peace. Meshaal said so
08:04 AM on 11/18/2011
Amazing article! A hundred times thanks for writing this article, Mr. Cooper!
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Zacky Ahmed
Astro-physics, Science, Politics
02:09 AM on 11/18/2011
Interesting article Douglas Cooper.
I consider myself left leaning, however I or neither those who I know support Palestine´s right to exist
never said anything about destroying Israel, or arguing that they did not have any right to exist.

Is unfortunate that the Hamas Charter is being quoted so many times, since
this happened:

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons."[6]Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office.[7]They have not adopted their charter since they won the Palestinian legislative election, 2006 as part of their political program.[8] Instead they have moved to a more secular stance,

But I guess you can quote it, as long as they officially havent changed "for internal reasons"

I am for one glad that Dr. King did not fall for the "Jews are behind every bad thing" movement
which a lot of conspiracy theorists now cling on too, I cannot take them seriously, since their message is hate.

But I can tell you this, I am disappointed with Israel´s right leaning government, that do not seek peace but continues to build more settlements, As I can read in the history books, Israel got to the UN to get their statehood, back in the 60s, what is wrong if Palestine does the same ?.
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HUFFPOST BLOGGER
Douglas Anthony Cooper
Novelist (Amnesia), www.dysarm.com
02:26 AM on 11/18/2011
We essentially agree. I would love to see a two-state solution. Whether Hamas has truly changed -- let's just say that I'll be thrilled if your report proves accurate. (Amazed, but thrilled.)
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Zacky Ahmed
Astro-physics, Science, Politics
02:54 AM on 11/18/2011
However with that said, I am not naive, I know that there are fringe groups
on both sides, that I have argued with, right wing Israelis who believe
Palestinians should go to the dozen other arabic countries surrounding them,

and Palestinians who believe Israelis should be kicked back to the European countries they came from. or the religious ones who believe they should be killed..

So I am aware of that.

here is my source for them moving away from the charter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

there was another thing, which I thought was essential if this peace deal
have to go through, thats the international community.

Israel with all do respect have a strong army, strong economy,
they control the checkpoints, they control most of the land,
for them to say to the Palestinians come to us
and we will solve this issue dont go to the UN, saddens me, and I dont think
is gonna solve any issues at all.

Take for example 2 people who have been having a dispute for many years,
in order to reconcile them it takes a middleman, or they will keep fighting
and we as an international community should be that middle man that goes in
and says okay we are tired of you fighting lets solve this issue once and for all.
and make sure is a fair deal both parts can go home happy.
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FearlessFreep
A radical leftist with a JS Woodsworth avatar.
01:38 AM on 11/20/2011
And Israel doesn't have to "truly" change?
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Galilee
I boycott products from Syria & Gaza dictatorships
07:56 AM on 11/18/2011
"a piece of history and no longer relevant"

That is interesting because at the end of 2010 Hamas PM said "will never recognize Israel"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GueURvTbIss

The Palestinian Authority President said he will never recognize Israel as a Jewish state (that cuz he wants to turn it into an Arab state). He also praised the Palestinian mass murderers released recently from jail.
PA and Hamas TV is constantly broadcasting anti-Semitic shows, including children shows intended to brainwash their children to hate.
http://www.youtube.com/user/palwatch

It really "is unfortunate" that people distort the real things Palestinians actually say.
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Zacky Ahmed
Astro-physics, Science, Politics
05:29 PM on 11/18/2011
Dont blame me for the distortion, I googled the Hamas Charter to find out more, about the issue. and I found those quotes on Wikipedia,
http://en.­wikipedia.­org/wiki/H­amas_Coven­ant
seem like they state various opinions within a small amount of time, but as I said again
I was not defending Hamas, I think their quotes as you mentioned them are disturbing
not only to Israelis but also to the Palestinians who seek peace.

Religion is really poison.
01:42 AM on 11/18/2011
I am willing to consider that Dr. King, for whom I have long had enormous respect, could be mistaken or misinformed about something.

I am also willing to consider that whether Israel has a right to exist is a different question from exactly where it has a right to exist, and to consider to what extent either or both of those rights trump the rights of others.
01:50 PM on 11/18/2011
While you deliberate, could you please also consider whether Pakistan has a right to exist, especially in India. Ponder Armenia and the as yet undeclared state of Kurdistan. Does India have a right to hang onto Goa seeing as it took it by force from Portugal and annexed it in 1961. Then of course there are the various highly disputed territories claimed and / or controlled by China.

In the Middle East one would have to consider that after WWI the Arabs were freed from the yoke of Turkish oppression by Brtian et al and thereafter lands were divided up and new countries established in such a way as to please various interests, many of them Arab.

Once you have established a set of criteria for the establishment of countries, you can see if Israel is a match or not.
04:19 AM on 11/19/2011
Bear in mind that "...a set of criteria for the establishm­ent of countries..." that accepts the use of force leaves Israel with no grounds to complain about any use of force against them by the Palestinians who want their land back.