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06:16 PM on 10/27/2008
And folks are worried about NOT being able to be married when....

The Stock Market is CRASHING????

I kind of think some folks have lost their common sense here:(
all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
06:42 PM on 10/27/2008
And folks are worried about others being able TO get married when...

The Stock Market is CRASHING????

08:20 PM on 10/27/2008
Well done !!! Funny how the person with liberty in their handle doesn't seem to to know what liberty is!!!
10:41 PM on 10/27/2008
Sorry, I posted this before, but it appeared in the wrong place.

Marriage rights offer financial protections to couples. Being denied the right to get married denies their access to those protections (Social Security, etc.). So, yeah, the stock market is crashing and people are concerned about protecting their loved ones.
06:06 PM on 10/27/2008
That's all right. All churches are on the wrong side of history.
08:04 PM on 10/27/2008
You are wrong there...try the United Church of Christ...look into its history. DOn't go off on Jeremiah Wright or Obama. This denomination did make some mistakes and they corrected them, apologized in some instances and seeks to be on the right side of the coin. Don't get too fancy about your history.
06:06 PM on 10/27/2008
"To those publishing hateful words in the comments towards Mormons, I ask you to re-consider. I'm with MLK: we should strive for moral ends by moral means. Healthy criticism is fine. Hate and intolerance perpetuates hate and intolerance whether it is directed at gays or Mormons."

Um... one is a choice, the other is biological. If someone decides to be an idiot, I'm going to call them out.

And they told me I was going to hell long before I called them idiots.
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06:06 PM on 10/27/2008
Let's not violate civil rights of all people, including gays. I live in Arizona and have received three calls on how to vote for the Proposition changing our state constitution to say "marriage is between a man and a woman". I voted by mail already the opposite and told them never call me again. Civil rights are civil rights for all. If you personally don't believe two gays should be 'married' then that is your right, but don't tell the rest of us what to think [same with abortion].
06:05 PM on 10/27/2008
Come on... THEY MARRY THEIR CHILDREN. Mormons are meant to be pitied and kept in Utah.

Elitist? Damn right. I don't believe in the invisible sky god, and I don't marry my children.
05:34 AM on 10/28/2008
(full disclosure: I'm largely agnostic, and have never been affiliated to the LDS in any way.)

I've done quite a bit of reading about the LDS and the FLDS. Many LDS today are unaware of the darker elements of their own church history, either out of sheer ignorance, or wilful suppression by the church.

Nevertheless, FLDS cannot and should not be reasonably linked to the modern LDS proper. We may reasonably accuse the LDS of not tackling the "family values" issue in their own backyard, not to mention the shameful way women's and children's rights have been trampled over in the FLDS. However, they do not marry their own children. Even Warren Jeffs didn't.
06:00 PM on 10/27/2008
How did polygamy (I know it is not longer the Church's doctorine) ever meet the definition "Between 'a' man and 'a' woman?
05:35 PM on 10/27/2008
I'm not a Mormon, but I do live in Utah. I serve on a board that governs an aftershool program that welcomes gay, lesbian and transgendered teens...many of whom are Mormon. It breaks my heart to know that we are the only allies they have at home or church...they are quite literally inundated with words that aim to minimalize them to the fringes of society...which is why Utah has the highest incidence of gay teen suicide in the nation. It's nice to see someone standing up for them. We have to remember that our gay couples have families too. When you punish them, you also punish their children. You're either for all families or no families.
05:35 PM on 10/27/2008
I find it hard to take Mormon seriously as a Christian church. Any organization that supports wars and tries to use it's influence to demand that people of other faiths must abide by their belief system via government intervention, is not Christian. Their opposition to gay unions is an attempt to use the Church and our Government to divide rather than unite people.

I guess they forgot that they were among the persecuted at one time, hence their journey here in the first place. I guess they also forgot about the separation of Church and State put in place specifically to keep government out of the business of religion.

I suppose Mormon teaching now is based on the premise that "We have what we want, but now we don't want anyone else to have what they want."

Oh well...perhaps some other faith will push for an amendment making the Mormon church illegal.

Now that IS both un-American and un-Christian like behavior if you ask me. Shame on Mormons.

05:37 AM on 10/28/2008
"Any organization that supports wars and tries to use [its] influence to demand that people of other faiths must abide by their belief system via government intervention, is not Christian."

Heh. No Church Militant for you!
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05:29 PM on 10/27/2008
This is the reason why I left "The Church" back when they got involved in Prop 22 in California during 2000. My TBM (True Believing Mormon) brother explained to my horror that it was a feather in the Church's cap to help it pass - that the Church is its brother's keeper. Once I got over the fact that my brother had become a whack-job, I realized I had to get out. When will you be mailing in your resignation, Joe?
05:23 PM on 10/27/2008
Dear Brother Vogel,
As a woman who was born into the Church and has lost her faith, I commend you for your words. It is highly unusual to hear this kind of open and inclusive voice from members of the Mormon faith. This is a very courageous act you have undertaken. Well done!
05:15 PM on 10/27/2008
Thanks to Mr. Vogel for his refreshinly open-minded thoughts. And I agree that atheists should band together. But at the same time, how is seperation of church and state effective when churches send lobbyists to Washington to work on their behalf for thier own ends, all the while insisting that government absolutely refrain from interaction with private organized religions? This makes no sense to me. Having been raised in a very conservative religion it is beyond my understanding of the definition of hypocricy...but that is another argument...
05:10 PM on 10/27/2008
I recently on some blogs of young mormon women and I was curious how these "hip" youngsters made sense of Mormonism. Apparently, their father is a Republican legislator who told them the Mormon church has had a "covenant" with Republicans for a very long time. They are encourage to pray to come to their own conclusions, which, unremarkeably, are that Bush is doing a fine job and polygamy is sort of funny.

I imagine thinking/speaking up for yourself within this tight church structure is almost unthinkable to most young Mormons. I'm heartened to see websites cited that defy that expectation, however.

On a positive note, there seems to be a strong ethos of helping one another (if you look/act/and think appropriately, of course). It's a powerful support many people are without these days, and would be hard to imagine losing, I suspect.
05:07 PM on 10/27/2008
Marriage strictly from a biblical sense is man and woman.
If this is part of my belief system, I do not feel the need to change the view point for the minority position.
Civil unions are just that, and government can, and will call them such. I do not consider that marriage from my biblical point of view, and never will.
Aligning this thinking with Martin Luther King and the struggle of blacks is an insult.
This issue has been made into a biggot platform, when in reality it is a biblical statement followed by many Christians.
Get a civil union, work to get benefits from employers etc., but do not pervert all that marriage means,and has meant for centuries.
You can not tell me that a gay couple is going to be accepted, or potentially less prone to intolerance, just because they are "married."
Love the sinner, not the sin. Where are our viewpoints being respected and tolerated. Instead we are being protrayed as "biggots" and "zealots" out of touch with society.
Marriage is for man and woman, period. This is not open for doctrinal interpetation. I do not see where this is so dififcult to understand. So, there's a part of society that wants me to pick and choose the parts of the bible that make them feel uncomfortable, or that are out of touch with where society is headed, and legislate my acceptance of their minority view point.
05:22 PM on 10/27/2008
Please spare us with your sanctity of marriage speach. My straight friends have ruined that long ago with adultery, divorce & child custody wars. My ex-brother-in-law is a shining example of man/woman marriage...............with his concubine on the side in an apartment.
05:26 PM on 10/27/2008
As long as marriages are performed in civic locations, by civil servants, and there are laws governing it, then it has ALREADY been redefined as a secular institution. As a secular institution, your biblical beliefs have no relevance and to deny one group of, as you say 'minority,' people equal protection under the law IS bigotry. Americans are better than that.

Keep your religious beliefs for you and your family and your church, but don't try to legislate them for other families and try to say that that is not zealotry.
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05:03 PM on 10/27/2008
Our federal and state constitutions were drafted and ratified for the purpose of clarifying our rights as citizens, not specifically taking rights away from any individual or group.

To anyone who is a staunch supporter of this proposition, I would recommend for you to please consider the fact that this will set a very scary precedent in our civil rights history. Stop and consider what rights may be constitutionally taken from you in the future based on this precedent alone - stranger things have happened. After all, the separation of church and state was originally established to protect the church from the power of government - who is to say the power cannot shift back out of the hands of religion in the future? The backlash against religion becomes very palpable in times when religion seems to be wielding a bit too much influence in a secular society.

The burden of protecting the sanctity of marriage falls squarely on the shoulders of the individuals who enter into such a union, and that is where it should stay. Now is a time when we should be teaching our children to recognize love and respect in any arena, not fear and hate for what is different than ourselves.
Peace with Justice
04:56 PM on 10/27/2008
Marriage for lesbians and gays has been legal for years in Canada since the Supreme Court ruled that denying it violated our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. My marriage of 28 years has not suffered, and dogs and cats are not living in sin. People are free to practise whatever religion they choose, and to set their own standards for marriage (i.e. must not be divorced) as they always have. All civil marriage commissioners must perform marriages without discrimination; as they are licensed individuals, similar to notaries public.