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05:00 PM on 07/13/2012
I'm glad somebody is producing a resource to have this conversation in churches. Unfortunately, I don't think this is the right one. It moves way too slowly, --it was almost unwatchable, --and I couldn't help thinking that Stanley's stock "the clergy are lazy and stupid" schtick is just getting old.

Most of us do care about theology, and we would love a resource that doesn't insult us and our people, but makes the same points. If we believe in the resurrection, we have nothing to fear in death and nothing to gain by using up the resources necessary for the well-being of all.

Right idea, wrong video.
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phal4875
The world is run by cats; we just feed them.
03:22 PM on 07/16/2012
Your namesake, the Apostle Paul, believed in the resurrection of a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15). He saw the resurrection in a physical or temporal body as beneath a perfect spirit's path. Jesus had to have a non-physical body because a physical body deteriorates.
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Fred Beggs
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04:27 PM on 07/13/2012
There is a difference between Britain and the US. The biggest difference is that in America people rule, in what is known as a constitutional republic. It is what America is. Remember back in the old days of America when they gave you a tax deduction for charities. That was good because the country was telling its people that being part of this country means giving some. It is now changed in that instead of a tax break we get taxed to help others. It is no longer a sense of cooperation but a sense of intrusion. That is why we have two parties. One demands participation, the other encourages participation.

Many miss the point that he made in that all the health insurance in the world and all the well trained Doctors and medical staff cannot get you out of life alive.

Since this is on the religion forum of huffpost, I can say that my hope is not in this temporary life but in the life that has become new through the gift of God.

All the turmoil of this world, within and without, is a sign that this life must give way to eternal life or die with this world.
12:34 AM on 07/14/2012
The majority of your comment isn't even tangentially related to this page.

If charity did the job, government wouldn't have stepped in. Also, the taxes you currently pay are quite low compared to history.

On to the theology.

No one wants to die but the fact that I will and that's it, that's the end of me does not bother me half as much as an eternal consciousness. No matter what paradise I think of, it can't have both have free will and be eternal. At some point, I'd want to end my existence. I'd just get bored of it eventually. If I retain free will, I could do that, but then It wouldn't be an eternal life. If it is an eternal paradise and I never get bored, then I've essentially had my free will removed from me. This I will not do. In my life, I've often been tempted to sacrifice who I am for some happiness and I refused it every time.
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Fred Beggs
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11:26 AM on 07/14/2012
You cannot compare eternal life to life as we know it. Eternal Life is as much about quality of life as well as a length of life. It is our earthly selves that is insatiable.

I was responding to this page so you can interpret it different if you want. You have free will.
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phal4875
The world is run by cats; we just feed them.
03:26 PM on 07/16/2012
Schedule A of Form 1040 still has a place for charitable deductions. Putting down good medical care because we all will eventually die is just foolish. Do you want a painful broken leg fixed, or do you just want to imagine an afterlife as you sit there in agony? Is this life of no value? Why do people live a physical life before they life in an afterlife? Did God mess up by creating a physical life for us?
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Fred Beggs
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04:04 PM on 07/16/2012
I like your last question. I just wonder if you really want the answer are are just looking for an excuse. Keep asking those questions and you might get the answer. When you do, remember to thank God.
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bholly72
04:27 PM on 07/13/2012
What in the world is "desperate atheism?" Mine is quite serene.
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Fred Beggs
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04:46 PM on 07/13/2012
I couldn't grasp the point on that either. Maybe he meant when it comes to our health and life, that we put more hope and trust in mankind than we do in those who are supposed to watch over us spiritually. (ministers)

Atheism is easy. Faith in what you know is real yet you can't understand it with your senses. Now that is what separates me from you.
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CabinAgue
We are ALL in this together.
09:30 PM on 07/13/2012
"Atheism is easy."

I believed for a long time.  I can compare the two quite well.  The cognitive dissonance required for belief is something I do not miss.  But atheism, in America anyway, is not easy.  (Would be even harder in some countries, but much easier in others.)  There is _extreme_ expectation, everywhere, in belief.  Going along with convention, without examination, is actually much easier.  I think that is what most people do.  When pressed, they couldn't articulate their position.  When quizzed about tenets of their religion, almost certainly the one in which they were indoctrinated as children, they are likely not to fare well either.  It's not really a position of strength.

"Faith in what you know is real yet you can't understand it with your senses."

I know there's no way to ask this without sounding offensive, but can you read and re-read that question with a critical eye?  Can you see how it is no different than anybody who is convinced their delusion is reality?  The words are the same, and atheists see it so clearly.  It's honestly like being inside the story of the emperor, and listening to everybody going on and on about how beautiful his clothes are.  I'm sorry, but if you listen carefully, I bet you can actually understand what I mean...
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bholly72
11:41 PM on 07/13/2012
What matters is not what's easy. What matters is what's true. It was not easy for me to question my earlier faith and come to conclusions that I didn't want. But since then, it has become increasingly clear to me that what you claim to know is real, alas, is not.
03:00 PM on 07/16/2012
He is referring to the fact that many Christians simply do not live out the central tenets of their faith when it comes to death - they are desperate to stay alive because they don't truly know that dying is not to be feared. For the Christian, death is not something to be feared - we believe in Resurrection and eternal life and therefore death is not the end.

But the prevailing culture in the world today is that we should prolong life as long as possible, because it's all we've got. Hauerwas is commenting on how that attitude has seeped into the Christianity and that it does not belong there.
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phal4875
The world is run by cats; we just feed them.
03:32 PM on 07/16/2012
What will you be doing in that next life (not meant as sarcasm)? Will you see all the people and even pets that you knew in this life? Will you get bored while living forever? Once you have gained all knowledge, what is left to learn? Will any other souls get on your nerves as you spend trillions of years with them? If your brother Joe is boring now, how will he be after the first billion years?
04:19 PM on 07/13/2012
Learning to die is all good and everything . This body is only a temporary vessel . Meanwhile , while we are here and in this body , taking care of it without going bankrupting yourself in your elder years or younger years for that matter begins at your dinner table . Stop buying into the hype of eating meat and eating eggs and drinking and eating dairy products . Adapt a Vegan life style . The word Vegan has been demonized by the very industries that want to keep you hooked on their products . At least cut back on all meat,eggs,milk and other dairy products to where it is only 5% or less your total intake of foods and drinks and try to cut the processed foods completely out . Stop eating fast foods . It will put a hurting on all the medical field for sure , as you will be living and eating allot more healthier . "Let Food Be Your Medicine - Hippocrates "
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Sistagirl Young
04:17 PM on 07/13/2012
There is "nothing" or "no one" who can get you out of the inevitable...death. If it were there would be 2,000 yearold rich people "still"here. The LORD doesn't work like that. "Well, we have methods that can prolong, your life." How do I know that? For all I know they may be "fastforwarding" me toward death. This is as I see it. Keep me as "pain-free" as medically possible and leave me alone. I see no need to make the medical facilities and it's practitioners any richer than they are. Just look at it this way, if you can. Best doctor on the planet, whoever that might be, and all his patients die. Eventually. And ain't nothin' he or anyone else can do about it. Life.
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IHateTheGOP
Morals do not require belief in the unbelievable
02:02 PM on 07/13/2012
Gee really? I thought medicine would keep me alive forever.
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errol44
Just in town for the GOP circus
11:40 AM on 07/13/2012
Much as our modern wars don't touch most of our citizens directly, neither do the deaths of the uninsured. If the Bush administration had imposed a tax on everyone to pay for the wars and started a draft, I have no doubt that Americans would have scrutinized the administration's actions and our country's involvement much closer. Even so, over our decade of war in Iraq, much more attention was given to the deaths of our 4,000-plus soldiers than is given to the 50,000 people that die in this country each year because they don't have health insurance. In fact, there is almost no coverage of this atrocity that goes on under our noses, day after day.

We willingly ignore what's going on - pretend it just doesn't happen. And the fact that a few people might pay a tax penalty for not having health insurance far outweighs the fact that, not only are people dying, the road to that end is long suffering. But how do we touch people with this issue? Can we tax them for each person that dies in this way? Can we draft them (as we could draft men into military service) to nurse those suffering in this way? I don't know the answer to that, but I know it is a problem that needs to be brought to the forefront of the American consciousness.

Until that time, shame on us.
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11:08 AM on 07/13/2012
How refreshing to hear someone say it so plainly: "England has much more of a sense of cooperative society than we have ever had."

Yes, America's rugged individualism has a dog eat dog, me first edge to it. It seems as though our devotion to money is a large factor in that.

But in this context Stanley Hauerwas means that there is a me first attitude when it comes to sharing medical resources. How else could it be true that many Americans are at peace with a medical system that bankrupts people without coverage?

The recorded videos of people wanting great effort and medical expense to prolong their physical life for a short time at the end of their lives supports what Stanley Hauerwas is saying. Not only are we self-centered, but we equate physical life of the body as the desired life - ignoring the whole spiritual idea of spiritual life being what is really life.