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Linus v. Lucy
03:09 PM on 08/24/2012
Faced with mounting challenges, the ruling elites, a very small portion of the population, were no longer capable of delivering what was expected of them, and conflict increased.

"The old political and economic structure dominated by semidivine rulers decayed," the team writes. "Peasants, artisan – craftsmen, and others apparently abandoned their homes and cities to find better economic opportunities elsewhere."

2012: Farm workers abandon California and other states. Crops rot.
02:41 PM on 08/24/2012
James Hansen support mistake of Arrhenius, that GHGs influent climate change.
As one of scientists, which was involved in Senate Committee he influent chairman of that committee Al Gore.
Both of them are responsible for bringing political slogan in science: "If 98% of scientists support idea, it is enough to proclaim that this idea is right."
In real science always one or few scientists confront opinion of majority. Copernicus against Aristotle, Newton, Galileo, Eistein, Lorentz, Curie...

We can't compare different types of GHGs- methane and water vapor, as lighter than most gases in air and carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide, which heavier, than most gases in air.

Methane and water vapor actually help cool the atmosphere, despite they are GHGs.

We must reevaluate science of climate change, if we do not want damage, which will bring advices from this wrong science. It damage will be bigger than from WW1 & WW2 together.
06:21 PM on 08/24/2012
I think I'll stick with the 98% of scientists,

sorry dude but Al Gore is your albatross.
06:23 PM on 08/24/2012
I will meet you at mount of Everest
Evil Emperor of the World... evil is good
07:07 PM on 08/24/2012
most scientist agree with that climate change is happening and human activity is part of it... get off your lazy brain and come on into the 21st century
Domestic Surveillance is the first step to tyranny
06:39 AM on 08/25/2012
The people who opposed the names listed were Theologians not Scientists. Big Difference.
HS Biology/Earth Science Teacher, Progressive Mind
02:22 PM on 08/24/2012
too bad the deniers will never read this, it is Science and you know how they feel about facts
Scientifically Progressive Libertarian Socialist
06:31 PM on 08/24/2012
It's not too bad, they aren't going to accept it anyway, and bring nothing useful to the conversation, I'd rather they don't read it.
Your soul needs faith, bread alone won't do.
01:34 PM on 08/24/2012
At the time of the Mayan Empire, the land was almost virgin, earth's bounties were fresh and a plenty, abundance of raw foods are everywhere, countless salmons and deers are jumping up and down in America, turkeys are crockling everywhere, buffaloes thundering runs can be heard a mile away,lol, etc etc etc. There was no hunger. There was no draught because all the rivers were full, no modern irrigation yet, lol. Science baloneys never stop.

The FOREIGN ILLEGAL ALLIENS demolished them all ! There I said it for you, if you are too asahmed to do so. Please, stop hiding your guilt, we know what happened. 8)
01:32 AM on 08/25/2012
Your post made my night. Thanks
Your soul needs faith, bread alone won't do.
11:02 AM on 08/25/2012
"“Your post made my night. Thanks” - Theillusion

You are welcome. Praise the Holy Spirit. 8)
Grapes of Wrath page252
01:59 AM on 08/25/2012
Wow. It's very sad that a person can think that a race of people are the source of all problems.
Your soul needs faith, bread alone won't do.
12:45 PM on 08/25/2012
"Wow. It's very sad that a person can think that a race of people are the source of all problems." - Syrinx14
Man's ability to see differences to discriminate and/or to kill is the major cause of most human problems, not religion. Religion helps minimize these discriminations and indifference to differing races in conflict rather than divides.
This comment has been removed due to violations of our [Guidelines]
Progressive Family for 4 generations
12:46 PM on 08/24/2012
I wonder how the .05% at the time controlled this process.....I'm sure it was for their benefit
06:24 PM on 08/24/2012
They were charlatans dealing with farmers

& they kept people in line w/ fear&loathing.
12:37 PM on 08/24/2012
Their collaspe and disintegration was probable compounded by a leader like we presently have also weaking the social and economic dynamics of this country!
05:08 PM on 08/24/2012
you dissing baby Bush again?
12:32 PM on 08/25/2012
mwelby Intelligent rebuttal. Who knew a lib dem would use Bush in a response? lol ~;:>) We have had much worse for almost four years stew pit!
12:26 PM on 08/24/2012
"The switch from trees to corn reduces the amount of water transferred from the soil to the atmosphere, which reduces rainfall"

It is exactly what happen right now in USA and Canada, where from 2000 till 2012 killer beetles destroyed more than 100,000,000 acres of forest.

Instead to put all resources to restore forests our Government by advices from scientists of climate change are waste money on solar cells and windmills to reduce amount of GHGs in the atmosphere.
It is simple to calculate, that amount of GHGs from wildfires and decay by dead forests is bigger, than from all transportation and power plants in USA, Mexico, and Canada.
Alive trees will evaporate more water from the soil, increase humidity in air and probabilities of rain - real sources to cool the atmosphere and save USA from drought.

GHGs theory is the most dangerous mistake of today science of climate change.
GHGs have nothing to do with climate change.
Reduction of evaporation from continents with arable land and reduction of reflection of direct sun radiation by human activities are real reason.
We must (MUST) reevaluate science of climate change as soon as it possible.
12:45 PM on 08/24/2012
I like the argument with the exception of the line "GHGs have nothing to do with climate change"
In particular "nothing "
"Current models show no impact of GHG on Climate" or "no evidence currently to support GHG's has a direct effect of Climate Change"

That statement alas undermined a potentially interesting view.
01:04 PM on 08/24/2012
The effect of CO2 on temperature is well understood to be 1 degree for a doubling.
This is mild and so far beneficial.

the debate is over feedbacks which are supposed to multiply this by 3 to 6.

the problem is that this just isn't happening.
02:25 PM on 08/24/2012
Please try to evaluate different types of GHGs:

1. Methane and water vapor, which are lighter than most gases in air;
2. Carbon dioxide and nitrous oxide, which are heavier than most gases in air.

Gases from first group inside of any parcel of air making this parcel lighter and help convection forces to bring it UP.
Water vapor need huge energy for evaporation.
Partial condensation of water inside parcel of air released heat and make this parcel lighter. That mean it's properties of water help recreate convection forces and help bring all (ALL) gases in parcel on next level, till upper troposphere, where all energy of all gases will released to the space more easy, than from ocean (land) level.
It cooling atmosphere, despite water vapor is GHGs.

Measurement from satelites, which show trapping of IR radiation by water vapor can't provide data for transport of energy of all gases because of buoyancy effect of methane and water vapor.
Permaculture and Sustainability
10:50 AM on 08/24/2012
What this archeologist and many posters fail to understand is that the Maya people needed the forest for their food, medicine and fiber. They did not have the plow and did not till the land. They practiced agro-foresty and were masters of designing food forests. Check out the work of Annabel Ford, an archeologist at U.C. Santa Barbara who has studied the Mayan food forests past and present.

Some modern Maya people still practice this way of agriculture. Forest gardens are highly productive and sustainable. We can learn much from them compared to our own destructive ways of agriculture.
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01:03 PM on 08/24/2012
I dont know if you are right about that.
The Maya's, like the Inca's, worked with terraced farming and raised fields.
Sure it is not the same as farming today and forest farming was still common, but by the period of population explosion farming methods diversified quite a bit.
01:12 PM on 08/24/2012
think of the terrace farming of the Maya as your refrigerator, fresh veggies and medicines being grown outside the windows for easy access where as crops like corn would be grown in fields,, also the terrace gardens were grown so the priests and such could see, read what was going on in the fields by looking at what was happening on his balcony.
10:49 AM on 08/24/2012
many places in America lost a "planting season" this year.. and places in America lost their planting season last year. for some that is 2 seasons in a row.. it may not have a serious effect on our country as a whole but it definitely did on the farmers that lost.. we're a lot the same as the Maya.
10:45 AM on 08/24/2012
so how serious was missing a planting season??? in many areas these people were able to receive 2 planting seasons in one years.. but that taxed the land, corn can only be grown over the same area for so long and all the nutrients are exhausted.. in essence this is what fostered their expansion. they came from nomadic tribes of hunters and gatherers, establishing a civilization, _ pyramid city _ didn't stop them from continuing their old ways.. they'd move entire cities.. scout out and establish new ones and move leaving some behind to eventually fall to ruin.. eventually the populations became so dense and farming used up so much area that they were no longer able to support themselves. much of that, over populating, was probably behind the practice of human sacrifice.. mass genocide. thinning out the population..
10:28 AM on 08/24/2012
where is it that America doesn't see it's own reflection in the mirror???
As stated " Social and economic dynamics also contributed. _to the decline_ " mounting challenges, the ruling elites, a very small portion of the population, were no longer capable of delivering what was expected of them, and conflict increased" _ political wrangling that takes instead of gives_ _ people overburdened by huge government_

"The old political and economic structure dominated by semidivine rulers decayed," the team writes. "Peasants, artisan – craftsmen, and others apparently abandoned their homes and cities to find better economic opportunities elsewhere" .. _ the jobs went out the window to overseas_ _and they haven't even including the wars_ America is on the fringes of collapse..

like mel gibson's movie Apocolipto said _empires_ "collapse comes from within"

the people in the US should take that parallel very seriously!!!
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12:28 PM on 08/24/2012
Well said because of the way they lived they killed themselfs look at the romans.I think the US is next.
Linus v. Lucy
03:07 PM on 08/24/2012
Crops are rotting in the fields today because farm workers fled.
10:27 AM on 08/24/2012
The Mayans burned a lot of trees as a part of the process to make a kind of stucco that they covered buildings with. They put the stucco on VERY thick, but as the deforestation progressed, the layer they used became thinner and thinner.
They totally ruined their environment for looks or staus. If they had just deforested for crops they wouldn't have had the same outcome.
Humans are so stupid.
A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence
11:45 AM on 08/24/2012
We never learn, do we?
12:17 PM on 08/24/2012
I'm hoping December 21 will bring about an evolution in human consciousness!
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05:57 PM on 08/25/2012
they still do....blood culture arose because they noted that fields after a war were suddenly very productive.
Early Cuyler
10:15 AM on 08/24/2012
Well, I think all them prehistoric inca mexicans went to rome and stole their jobs!
Liberal to the Death
05:55 AM on 08/24/2012
This is old news. Very old news. When I was studying pre-Columbian civilizations in university (in the 1970's), it was generally acknowledged that drought and deforestation (the term used was "slash-and-burn agriculture") were the primary reasons for the downfall of the Mayan civilization prior to the arrival of the Spanish colonialists.

Mel Gibson's occasionally-brilliant but mostly-violent over-the-top film of a Mayan-like civilization--Apocalypto--alludes to this.

Of course, there can be parallels to our modern-day, alleged civilization--particularly our deforestation of the Amazon and large swaths of Borneo, Java, Indonesia, Thailand, Cambodia, India, China, Madagascar, etc.

While I am not certain that greed was a factor in the Mayan destruction of its environment and the resultant catastrophic consequences, I am absolutely convinced that greed--the primary building-block of capitalism--is THE factor for environmental destruction in our own era.
07:05 AM on 08/24/2012
Tell me Mr. Liberal to the Death, what part of capitalisim are you doing without for the sake of the earth's survival?
10:34 AM on 08/24/2012
Wow, snotty much?
Liberal to the Death
02:49 AM on 08/25/2012
Just making an observation. We all drink at the well of capitalism. Unless you have a better alternative, let's just say that our bloated, rampant consumerism (and the twin-greeds of profit and possession) that fuels capitalism is doing the environment no good. So, please, get off your high-and-mighty capitalist horse.
Permaculture and Sustainability
10:52 AM on 08/24/2012
THe archeologists of your era didn't understand what was then called "slash and burn". It was a highly productive and regenerative way of managing the land and growing food. The clearing of undesirable plants was but the first phase in planting a forest garden the sustainably provided food, fiber and medicine for the people.
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01:06 PM on 08/24/2012
Thats interesting and the opposite of what I've learned, and I am learning it now.
Liberal to the Death
02:46 AM on 08/25/2012
My era? Excuse me? We're talking the 1970s, darling, not the 19th century, and I was only 20 at the time.
Well, anyway, all impertinence aside, it was referred to (and still is--I checked with a good friend who does field work in the Mayan peninsula) "slash-and-burn", which then as now, was not a very sensible or productive way of managing the land and growing the food. In fact, it is downright environmentally destructive.
Soil gets depleted and it becomes infertile after two to three harvest cycles. Instead of sustainable agricultural practices, which the Inca, for example, had mastered, the Maya would simply leave the spent land and move on to new terrain, slashing and burning, starting the planting/harvest cycle over again until the new terrain was exhausted. Then, the Maya would move on to the next terrain. And so forth and so on.
These are not conjectures regarding what factors contributed to the collapse of an otherwise highly-developed civilization but factual conclusions based on thorough archaeological investigation.
The Maya were brilliant mathematicians, astronomers, artist and writers. They were lousy agronomists and this is historical fact. As such, their civilization (primarily disparate city-states, instead of one, unified nation) suffered and collapsed as a result.
Interesting, too, that archaeologists have been able to translate most of the Mayan hieroglyphics. It makes one furious to imagine what knowledge was lost when the detestable Spanish priests who tagged along withe the Spanish usurpers ordered the vast libraries of Mayan Codices to be destroyed