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07:31 AM on 04/02/2010
To trust, honor, and obey. . .

Are you serious?
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
07:48 AM on 04/02/2010
Little knowledge of the program, do you?

On my honor......

filler, filler, filler

To obey.
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09:53 PM on 04/02/2010
I gave it up when they got us round the pond killing frogs with rocks.

When I got home from their camp I never went back.
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07:16 AM on 04/02/2010
. . . either the article wasn't clear or I missed it: did the adult in question host "pajama parties" (with a number of boys sleeping over at one time) or did the children go to his apartment alone?

To my mind, this answer to this question doesn't matter regarding the predator's culpability; instead, I'm trying to understand the parents' allowing their sons to sleep over. I would "understand" it more in the first instance--a group party--but certainly not in the second. And, no, I wouldn't allow my son stay over night at a single/non-parent adult's home either way. (I recently reneged on permission for my son to attend a sleep over--five boys to celebrate a birthay--with both parents present because the father simply gives me the creeps (even though he's done nothing that I can make explicit). I felt somewhat guilty, but completely relieved. As a parent, sometimes visceral simply rules)
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
07:50 AM on 04/02/2010
You are a responsible parent.
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mbazid
Just smile and nod
09:36 AM on 04/02/2010
Good for you. In cases like the one you described it's best to follow your gut.
You sound like a great parent.
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10:09 AM on 04/02/2010
*Blush* . . . & thank you both. :o)
07:02 AM on 04/02/2010
I see he took a page out of the Pope's book....blame the parents
06:43 AM on 04/02/2010
How come all of these male dominated organizations blame EVERYONE but the criminals? These protestations of the Boy Scouts, and the Catholic Church are extremely disturbing. It seems the organizations will not be held responsible for the criminal acts of the people involved in their organizations. Both of these institutions exclude women from their leadership and both of them seem intent on protecting criminals who are hurting children.
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
07:06 AM on 04/02/2010
If this had happened at a Boy Scout sanctioned event, I promise you the BSA would be in as much of an uproar as anyone else.

This is a case of a man who Happened to be a leader, and who invited boys from his group into his home.

The parents have to share some responsibility.

In the past when I took boys to an event, any event away from the meeting hall - even off premises a few hundred yards, I did what was policy: applied for it, posted the notice of approval for parents to see, got insurance coverage for the boys (BSA insurance is only valid with an approved event), lined up proper trained and responsible adult leadership. THIS is the program. Sleepovers are not.
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Sajwert
07:32 AM on 04/02/2010
I firmly agree that the parents should shoulder some of the blame, but in this manner. They trusted this man, they believed that the fact he was a Boy Scout leader gave him an aura of decency that has proven to be sadly misplaced. Perhaps they were lax in believing that he was just a kind man who truly was a decent man.

This same vile conduct can be done by family members, close family friends, and life long neighbors. It has come to the point that we can trust no one with our children not even if they have credentials and follow all the rules.
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lulume
09:32 AM on 04/02/2010
I don't understand this blame of the parents. First of all, the Boy Scouts had sanctioned this man as a troop leader or assistant leader or whatever he was. He was given the cloak of leadership by the Boy Scouts, which would certainly tend to make the parents trust him because they would believe that he had been properly vetted. Secondly, the Boy Scouts knew he was a pervert and they didn't oust him from their organization. I'd say that puts the blame firmly in their court. Stop blaming the parents.
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Amalek
Highly decorated HP warrior
06:32 AM on 04/02/2010
I came to this expected to rail against the "blame the victim" defense.

He makes a good point. When your kid joins the Boy Scouts that does not relieve a parent of continued governance of their child. Making sure events are authentic and sponsored is necessary due diligence. Anything less is gross neglect.
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
07:07 AM on 04/02/2010
Thanks to you.

A non-Scouter saying what I have been saying

Fanned
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Amalek
Highly decorated HP warrior
08:09 AM on 04/02/2010
Actually, I was an eagle scout. A non-molested eagle scout.
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EmmaJ76
Web Designer, Wife, Cat Mom, Politics Nerd
06:20 AM on 04/02/2010
NOTE: Sarcasm coming up:

Of course, it's the parents fault for trusting the organization that they intrust their children to every week - because they should be aware that there could be pedo's running about and if the parents are stupid enough to let them out of their sight the kids deserved to be abused!

END OF SARCASM!

WTF! I am SICK and TIRED of people trying to stick the blame on EVERYONE else BUT the abusers. Parents SHOULD be able to trust that they can leave their children with an organization that for years has told us it can - YES we should be wary but the abuse is not the parents fault - it's the SICK idiot that did the abuse.

When are these idiots going to take responsibility!
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NormalAmericanMan
If we knew anything, we would not be here.
06:34 AM on 04/02/2010
You are right... but the Parents and the Child are BLAMING the Boy Scouts. They WANT Money, not justice. The abuser does not have Deep Pockets.
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TryToBeFlexible
MENSA, Gay, Atheist, Married , age 58
07:41 AM on 04/02/2010
In civilized societies, since the ancient Greeks, the right to sue for money for redress of harm is the way that we can "get revenge" without having to use a gun (or knife, or sword). Would you rather go back to the tribal ways, with everyone running around in cycles of revenge? Or have a judged and juried system where money is paid to restore justice?
06:12 AM on 04/02/2010
Let's see, we've heard this week that it's the media's fault, the parents' fault--what's next, it's the boys' faults themselves? "Well, if he wasn't so young and tempting, this never would have happened. Parents should make sons that older pervy men don't want to have sex with."
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
06:57 AM on 04/02/2010
You and I agree 99.9% of the time. Not now. This was an away from the program, non-sanctioned event. BSA does not approve sleepovers. BSA do not approve ANY boy-adult interaction without two deep adult leadership present.

This is a case of a man, who happened to be an adult leader, and YES, used his position to gain trust, and organized events apart from BSA.

But, to construe this as a part of Scouting is wrong. This is no different than if the choir leader in the church had non-church sanctioned barbeque and raped a girl, or or if a bandleader offered to tutor a student in private, away from, and unknown by, the school.

Condemn the individual. Not the program unless it is part of the problem. BSA has long had a program of background checks for adult leader, requires annual participation in child abuse seminars, and has done all they can to weed out the creeps. You get a program that big, some nut will sneak through. Scouting is not like the Catholic Church. It has no history of protecting pedophiles.

disclaimer - I have been continuously registered with BSA since 1959. It is, and always will be, an important part of me. I am proud of what it has given me, and proud of what I have been able to give it. I have some prestigious accolades from the program, and am now working with the international program.
07:36 AM on 04/02/2010
Heh, I don't think we disagree here either, really. I don't think the scouts as an organization should be held liable (see my reply to NormalAmericanMan a bit below this). Yes, parents should be more vigilant, but a culture of cover-up should also be squelched. If anyone knows of these types of crimes and does not report it, he/she is guilty of conspiracy.
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AAKAlan
Web Developer, photographer, artist, old fart.
09:01 AM on 04/02/2010
I do disagree.

What about the thousand files on known child molesters that BSA has hidden away and gone to court, repeatedly, to keep hidden?

It's not that they caused the abuse. It's not that the Pope caused the abuse by priests.

Like many things, it's the coverup, not the crime.

And for covering up these criminal acts, BSA has not only broken the law, it has broken its own code of ethics.

They should be sued.
06:01 AM on 04/02/2010
Sure the BS leadership develops blame for this. I however have to question these parent's judgment. What makes them think it's alright to let their son's spend the night at a troop leader's apartment?

Talk about negligence. It's like parent's who act surprised when their 16 year old daughter ends up pregnant. They thought they were being cool by letting their daughter's boyfriend spend the night in the same room.
xansam
all want 2 eat, none want 2B eaten
06:08 AM on 04/02/2010
right. look at Bristol Palin, and her mother thinks she has the brains to be VP? She can't even keep her daughter from getting pregnant.
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Mister Biggles
05:35 AM on 04/02/2010
When I read his comments, I thought, it's pretty weak that he is deflecting the blame....THEN I read the comments here.

You guy are joking, right?

NO...it doesn't EXCUSE or forgive what the abuser did...AT ALL....BUT...

You seem to think it's a parent's RIGHT to hand their kid off to ANYONE and act OUTRAGED when bad stuff happens.

"That homeless guy told me he would take good care of them..."

Please learn the difference between blame or guilt and responsibility.

Most Americans have no ability to accept blame or handle guilt...so somehow many have convinced themselves that they are not responsible.
05:51 AM on 04/02/2010
Good point.
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cplKlyde
We're not going to be lied into another war are we
06:47 AM on 04/02/2010
Bingo
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dashcat
Sanspoof is my idol
05:05 AM on 04/02/2010
So basically he is saying that no parents should ever trust the Boy Scouts and they are all fools for ever trusting the Boy Scouts.

The Boy Scouts for crying out loud.

This is a perverse and sick world we live in.
05:34 AM on 04/02/2010
I'm sorry to say that he's right, but the forum for his comments is all wrong. No parent should allow their children to sleepover at a stranger's house without thoroughly investigating his background. If they are comfortable doing that, then they should debrief their children afterwards.
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Mister Biggles
05:36 AM on 04/02/2010
Exactly.
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Amalek
Highly decorated HP warrior
06:34 AM on 04/02/2010
Absolutely not. But making the assumption that everyone associated with the Boy Scouts is a saint is also a potentially fatal assumption. The point is you need to be aware of what is going on.
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KIVPossum
Moldova Marsupial
07:34 AM on 04/02/2010
Yes. A good parent never trusts their kids to anyone unless they are absolutely sure.
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WhatDaBleep
Right is Wrong and Left is Correct
04:35 AM on 04/02/2010
This is truly amazing - and straight out of the republican playbook - when all else fails, blame the victim.
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03:37 AM on 04/02/2010
This is appalling. Who do the Latter Day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America think they are, the Vatican?
xansam
all want 2 eat, none want 2B eaten
06:09 AM on 04/02/2010
fanned.
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NormalAmericanMan
If we knew anything, we would not be here.
06:39 AM on 04/02/2010
I am a scout. We would NEVER allow this kind of activity. I don't even let young kids attend general activities without their parents. Why aren't the parents suing the perp? He does not have millions of dollars of money that is intended to help a worthy program... that is why. Scouting is a great organization. Please don't compare us to the horrors of the Vatican.
03:36 AM on 04/02/2010
I didn't know that Bill Donohue was a spokesman for the Boy Scouts too. Who knew?
02:29 AM on 04/02/2010
this perp is in.sane......blames the parents,eh ?
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pflickner
Democratic Candidate for AZ State House LD15
02:27 AM on 04/02/2010
I see, a man is a trusted leader, parents trust him because he is a trusted leader, and it's the parents' faults for trusting him? Wow. I was a Boy Scout Assistant Scoutmaster and although nothing like that ever happened in our troop, parents trusted us implicitly because we were Boy Scout Leaders. Most people in that position realize the great responsibility that goes with that trust; however, there are a select few who are willing to use their position of trust and leadership to abuse those who trust them.
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11:44 AM on 04/02/2010
Yes. It is.

You know pedophiles exist. You know they are attracted to organizations like the Catholic Church and Boy Scouts because of their increased opportunities. And you don't think twice about letting your kid sleep over at a middle-aged single man's house? By himself? Really? When, exactly, do the parent's begin to share a little blame? Does the guy have to grow a goatee and laugh maniacally? Does he have to have "PEDO" tatooed on his forehead?