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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
erehwon2
09:22 PM on 11/18/2010
I keep reading on comment trails like this about how Israel "stole" East Jerusalem from the Palestinians and have no right to settle there. But let's review some facts:

The British Mandate established Jordan (then Transjordan) on the part of "Palestine" east of the Jordan River. The area west was to be Israel but later proposals partitioned this land into areas for Jews and those for Arabs, with Jerusalem a corpus seperatum to be administered by a neutral international force. Arabs rejected each partition plan. In the ensuing war in 1948, Jordan captured and occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including the Old City, but these territories were not originally designated for them.

In the Six Day War, Israel asked King Hussein to stay neutral, but he ignored their requests. Jordan started the war on that front, beginning by shelling West Jerusalem. If Hussein had stayed out of the war as requested, the West Bank and East Jerusalem would have stayed in Jordanian hands. Instead, they were captured by Israel. Since then, Jordan has relinquished claim to these lands.

So no, these lands weren't "stolen" from Palestinians. They never accepted the partition plan for the West Bank and Jerusalem never was intended to be solely under Arab control. Jordan, who held the lands after being the aggressor in the 1948 War has since given up all claims to the land. Israel has controlled this unclaimed land since 1967, won in that defensive war.
10:27 PM on 11/18/2010
.
["The British Mandate established Jordan "]

"British Mandate" rather says it all...
League of Nations/Ottomans and all that...

quite painless to divide up someone else's lands, isn't it
.
.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
erehwon2
11:15 PM on 11/18/2010
I take it, then, that you also object to the establishment of Jordan (British Mandate) as well as Syria and Lebanon (French Mandate) because those victors from WWI didn't have the right to divide up the old Ottoman Empire?

No? Well perhaps you object to the fact that Jews, whose families had lived in the countries for many generations, were tossed out of Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc. by the governments of these countries?

No? Well, perhaps you object to the fact that Israel, in contrast to her Arab neighbors, offered in their Declaration of Independence full citizenship to the local Arab population?

No? Well, perhaps, like Israel's surrounding Arab neighbors, you object to Jews being given charge of a country in the ME?

Ah, now I see your point.
01:07 AM on 11/19/2010
The British Mandate gives Jews a homeland in PALESTINE, with no infringement on the rights of the PALESTINIANS.

The mandate formalised British rule in the Southern part of Ottoman Syria from 1923–1948. With the League of Nations' consent on 16 September 1922, the UK divided the Mandate territory into two administrative areas, Palestine, under direct British rule, and autonomous Transjordan, under the rule of the Hashemite family from Hijaz Saudi Arabia, in accordance with the McMahon Pledge of 1915.[1] Transjordan was exempt from the Mandate provisions concerning the Jewish National Home.[1][2] The preamble of the mandate declared: Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.[3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_for_Palestine

Try learning REAL history, not the Hasbara version.
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08:12 AM on 11/19/2010
Nice history. I just want to add that Sykes-Picot was the pre-cursor to the British Mandate.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
erehwon2
09:30 AM on 11/19/2010
How in the world do you think that anything you wrote contradicts what I wrote? You merely copy and paste information about the formation of Jordan. Do you dispute what its original borders were or the fact that it occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem, areas which were NOT included in its original formation?

And BTW, the "rights and political status of Jews in any other country" most certainly were "prejudiced," even in the very formation of Jordan, from which Jews were expressly excluded.

So, specifically, what points of my post were incorrect?
08:12 PM on 11/18/2010
You would never see this in the Huff Post, but influential Al-Arabiya TV Director-General Abd Al-Rahman Al-Rashed slammed Abbas over his insistence of a construction freeze in the West Bank. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3986865,00.html

Those of us who want a peace treaty, as opposed to the majority of Huff Posters who just want to trash Israel, realize that the whole settlement issue is a side show. Its time to get to the table Abbas.
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12:11 AM on 11/19/2010
You want to make a sweaping generalization of HP reader's, unfair
and inaccurate I think.

So likewise let's also point out that many who support the right wing
Israeli policies of Aggression and Repression, rarely try to see the
other POV, and like so many on the right in the US or Israel,
constantly seek to Lie and Smear those who merely
differ in opinion.

Many of us who oppose Aggression and Repression of
course do so whether it's from our own US or Russia, China,
Israel, etc.; and we understand your feelings about Israel,
many of us were the same until we found out more about
the situation there. The many distortions in the US press
about it and the Israeli lobby, the constant mistreatment
of Christian and Muslim Arabs in the West Bank, the
attacking of demonstrators by the IDF or settlers.

These and more would bother any decent person I would
think.......?!?!
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GZLives
10:11 AM on 11/19/2010
"You want to make a sweaping generalization of HP reader's,"

Sweeping?? Hardly. All one need do is have a look at any thread that has any connection to Israel or Jews or read any blog written by a Jewish writer that has a pro Israel stand ... you will see the most vile Jew hatred. You can't pretend that doesn't exist here.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
TheRock Barkat
05:19 AM on 11/19/2010
What he fails to notice is the immense support for the Palestinian people. Maybe Abbas lost in some ways but its the Palestinians themselves who gained on this. That pundit is merely talking political points. On top of that Americans, many who were naive as to how much is really spent on the tiny postage stamp in the Middle East are up in arms that while Americans suffer here that we are satisfying a group of people who make up only a small fraction of the population to supply immigrants from russia and other points with homes built on the heads of the Palestinians. That wont sit very well with many Americans at all. Politically Netanyahu may have won but the face of Israel is shown and thats the main thing. The propaganda is being penetrated.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soma99
08:04 PM on 11/18/2010
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-official-israel-must-refrain-from-east-jerusalem-construction-during-freeze-1.325378
U.S. official: Israel must refrain from East Jerusalem construction during freeze
Shas has said that it will oppose U.S. exchange offer if Jerusalem is included in the 90-day freeze; U.S. official: Whatever Netanyahu told Shas about Jerusalem is not true.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/18/israelis-insist-east-jerusalem-building

Israelis insist they have US backing to build in East Jerusalem
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MelissaGoldman
One moment in time--RIP Whitney
08:13 PM on 11/18/2010
I have posted the Haaretz story here also, this story doesn't appear in any other publication which suggests that whomever this "US official" is, it's someone who wants to make sure Bibi's cabinet votes no. Someone in the US is working against Obama and Hillary...who it is is anyone's guess but looking at what just happened in the election, the list of possibilities is long and distinguished.
05:56 AM on 11/19/2010
Distinguished - brilliant. Well you are a firster.
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Manchurian
With Liberty and Justice for All
06:29 PM on 11/18/2010
Why would the Palestinians agree to resume talks if the Israelis continue to steal their land in East Jerusalem? East Jerusalem is not part of Israel - it was stolen along with the West Bank, Golan Heights, etc. after Israel attacked its neighbors in 1967.

If a halt to all settlement building in Arab East Jerusalem is not part of the agreement, the US should obviously not extend any sort of bribe to the Israelis for their "cooperation" in the peace talks. East Jerusalem has already been designated the capital of Palestine.
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Vlady
Better Late
06:51 PM on 11/18/2010
Amman/Jordan

>>has already been designated the capital of Palestine
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10:10 PM on 11/18/2010
According to Avigdor Lieberman and his gang.
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skialethia
Ελευθερία ή θάνατος
12:16 AM on 11/19/2010
Stop promoting ethnic cleansing!!
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05:31 PM on 11/18/2010
We spend a lot of time denying the legitimacy, needs and humanity of the other side, which results in anger if not hate. If the Israelis and Palestinians are doing the same thing, there will never be peace.
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06:05 PM on 11/18/2010
Someone was wrong to begin with thinking they could come from europe and take someone else's land, that is where denial and the conflict began. That denial has been perpetuated through successive generations while the original deniers and perpetrators continue to take more land with the purpose of having it all - - that too is being denied today. In 1880 when the Zionist movement began the Arab to Jew population was 20 Arabs for every Jewish person.

Check these easy to read time lapsed maps, they tell the story in themselves.
http://palestinethinktank.com/2006/05/10/the-shrinking-map-of-palestine/

“We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but to conquer a country from a people inhabiting it, that governs it by virtue of its language and savage culture.... [I]f we cease to look upon our land, the land of Israel, as ours alone and we allow a partner into our estate--all content and meaning will be lost to our enterprise.” from a 12 February 1914 letter to friends, Moshe Sharett, future Israeli Prime Minister of Israel, (Quoted from Morris, Righteous Victims)
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soma99
06:32 PM on 11/18/2010
The very nature of the colonial project breeds violence and racism. The first step is to recognize the nature of the crimes perpetrated on the Palestinians from having the Zionist project imposed on them and apologize. So, you are correct, there will not be peace..
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Amryxx
politeness rules, but with sharpened edges
04:26 PM on 11/18/2010
"...and U.S. pledges to veto anti-Israel resolutions at the United Nations"

I'm sorry, when did the US did *not* do this?
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Trollstein
Once you go Schwartz, you never go back baby
05:54 PM on 11/18/2010
A few times in the 1970s under Carter.
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04:10 AM on 11/19/2010
And under Poppy Bush. Both Carter and Bush Sr. failed to win a second Presidency.
03:51 PM on 11/18/2010
!sr@el is no different than !ran!
Its a R@c!st @parthe!d state ran by war cr!iminals

US State Dept: !srael Similar to Iran, Iraq and Sudan
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/140719
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04:11 PM on 11/18/2010
Even Iran is better, at least it doesn't have concentration camps and apartheid territories.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Soma99
04:24 PM on 11/18/2010
They can't even bribe the Iranian Jews to come to israel. Which of course they have been trying for decades.
04:28 PM on 11/18/2010
Seriously!
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Trollstein
Once you go Schwartz, you never go back baby
06:08 PM on 11/18/2010
Of course, this allegation would make more sense if Israel was not a "refuge" for traditionally oppressed people. Israel can not be compared apples-vs-apples with Iran because it is the minor remnants of a population nearly hunted to extinction. Israel provides all standard religious freedoms, plus freedom of speech and freedom of the press, something that these other nations do NOT offer. Not one, as far as I can tell.
Lastly, while there is segregation in Israel based on religion, which I think is the primary basis for the allegation, it is preferred by both religious groups. Where the groups prefer a secular, mixed community, such neighborhoods also exist. So the segregation is really optional. Arabs who wish to socialize with Hebrews can find a neighborhood which encourages this.
If you are not a Jew then chances are you have no idea what dynamics are in play. Even if you are a Jew there is no guarantee that your are sufficiently sensitive to the ambient circumstances to notice. But most Jews do notice. We notice when in school, some kids seem annoyed by our mere presence. We notice when in business, when our insolvency rate is way above the normal levels. I had one executive from a high profile Wall Street web retailer say (in front of several colleagues): "I think the difficultness is the Jewish thing". Like nothing. Some people don't like us breathing their air.
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Amryxx
politeness rules, but with sharpened edges
06:16 PM on 11/18/2010
While I have no problems with whatever ethno-religious group to find a refuge, said refuge must not infringe on the rights of others. I do not oppose the existence of Israel (any more than I oppose, say, Venezuela or Iceland), I oppose their excesses in the name of security.
08:18 PM on 11/18/2010
q> Of course, this allegation would make more sense
q> if Israel was not a "refuge" for traditionally oppressed
q> people

Another WHOPPER.  AS long as they are the right religion and the right color. 

Otherwise they are sent packing.
03:40 PM on 11/18/2010
More free welfare financial aid for the @parthe!d state!!
03:45 PM on 11/18/2010
Strike up the band. it's time to start the party.
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Schweik
04:00 PM on 11/18/2010
It is almost impossible to beleive that out of 2,000,000 spermatozoa YellowSnowDay was the quickest.
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04:14 PM on 11/18/2010
That's right it is 100% apartheid. The people attacking you, all support the racist apartheid, and hav no real arguments.

http://www.alternet.org/world/120197/gaza_is_a_concentration_camp__/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_apartheid_analogy
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GZLives
05:41 PM on 11/18/2010
Yeah a concentration camp ... maybe in your galaxy

"There were also huge numbers of horse carts. Now gasoline is readily available by tunnel from Egypt (I’m told it’s cheaper in Gaza than in either Israel or the West Bank), and cars are humming along nicely. Gaza still has huge numbers of jobless people and it is poor, but it is materially better off than Arab countries like Sudan or Mauritania. Indeed, it’s probably better off than Egypt."
By NICHOLAS KRISTOF

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/03/your-comments-on-my-gaza-column-2/
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Saint Poopypants
09:34 PM on 11/18/2010
Only in Islam can you hear freedom labeled as apartheid, and slavery to an Iman and a burka freedom.
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guveqzero
Inventor and Innovator
03:35 PM on 11/18/2010
No deal necessary. Just say no.
stpmdn
stop the madness!
03:17 PM on 11/18/2010
Israel can do whatever it wants whenever it wants and there is nothing obama can do about it. So why write these articles?
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
GZLives
05:48 PM on 11/18/2010
Obama doesn't govern Israel. In fact he barely governs the US nowadays.
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
baba2nde
in search of the meaning of being
02:11 PM on 11/18/2010
Quote: " But [Mr Natanyahu's spokesman] said any future moratorium would not apply to Jerusalem, whose eastern sector was annexed by Israel in 1967 in a MOVE NOT RECOGNIZED by the international community".

Let me understand something: are we about to give diplomatic cover to a pariah nation, or have we been doing this all along?
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Amryxx
politeness rules, but with sharpened edges
04:27 PM on 11/18/2010
Your second paragraph is closer to the truth; not quite sure about the "pariah" bit though. It's not like ministers turned their noses and leave in a huff every time they see an Israeli diplomat approaches.
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Trollstein
Once you go Schwartz, you never go back baby
06:15 PM on 11/18/2010
Sadly for the "international community" Israel requires no such recognition of East Jerusalem as part of its capitol. Since when have Jews ever been popular? I'm frankly surprised that the Martians have not joined in condemning Israel.
Jews do not expect so much. Then we are seldom disappointed, however, the "international community" still finds ways to disappoint us.
08:24 PM on 11/18/2010
q> Since when have Jews ever been popular?

Hasbara 101:  Move the discussion from Israelis to JEWS as quickly as possible.  Never mind the two are not synonymous.  Never mind they are talking about Israel and about Israelis. Treat them as such. Never mind that the majority of Jews in the world choose to not live in Israel for good reason:  the place is full of Israelis.

Once establishing the shift from Israelis to Jews, quickly bring up antisemitism.
08:45 AM on 11/19/2010
then the international community must do the decent thing . . . impose crippling sanctions against israel . . . trade embargoes, the freezing of its assets until israel complies with UN resolutions, international law, etc etc etc
02:06 PM on 11/18/2010
If Netanyahu had a profile on huffpost, I would totally fan/fave him. Obama should take lessons from him
HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Freenation
02:10 PM on 11/18/2010
And I could flag him...
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HUFFPOST SUPER USER
Lorili Lee
02:28 PM on 11/18/2010
Obama doesn't need lessons on being a war criminal, but at least he's not a psychopath.
03:39 PM on 11/18/2010
Exactly!
04:00 PM on 11/18/2010
Some might argue you must be a psychopath as a pre-requisite to becoming a war criminal, yes?
02:04 PM on 11/18/2010
It's clear that this dog and pony show has nothing to do with diplomacy; it's more like an auction.
The huckster auctioneer- aka Netanyahu and company- will no doubt force the American dupes and dolts to up their offer of freebies (free to all parties except the American taxpayers) for a limited "freeze agreement" which everybody in their right mind knows will be violated as soon as the check is in the mail.
Israel is a successful state the same way that the Sopranos are a legitimate business.